Before I forget Mike,

Does your friend from China have any military hardware for sale????
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Dude.... Just couldn't help myself .........

Pictures from titanium project for vocational school, two years ago. I made about thirty of the rings just for fun. I wear one every day. It's the aircraft grade. And the secret to cutting Ti, I've found, is to use high speed three flute endmills (for milling ops) and high rake lathe tools. Reduce the chip load to .001 and it won't start to get "hard" unless you start to heat it up. So use coolant or plenty of cutting fluid. Nobody should assume that I'm unskilled just because I'm young. Thats REALLY annoying. And Ti is really easy compared to ultem or niobium zirconia, or even tantellum. Hell. 99% pure copper is more of a bitch to machine then Ti. I'll include a pic of what I can do with that. Now this is all assuming that you don't mind getting your arms cut to hell while you're standing at your machine, or that you have an enclosed machining center. Anyway, I got what I wanted. The pictures of the Ti rods. Thanks all. Too bad I was out of town and couldn't defend myself. Most of my closest friends are "old." As in grey hair. Their problem, too, is that they resist change. This works well enough, why do differently? Well. Twysted is right. I want my engine to spin really fast. SCCA doesn't have a rpm restriction. And Ury should think this is a great idea. Imagine the weight I'm shaving off.

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 6 2006, 05:52 AM)

Before I forget Mike, Does your friend from China have any military hardware for sale???? . . . . . . . . . Dude.... Just couldn't help myself .........

I'll have to ask ...once my "drama" is over, I'll be in the market for a .308 Win, leaning towards a Savage...buddy is building a .338 Lapua Magnum....going to cost more than my 914

I wanted a Ti wedding ring from Statman Designs but wife overruled that idea, hahaha

Carbide is the new thing with rings. I don't know why.

I've got laser etching equipment at my disposal. I was planning to do some really exotic engravings, but I never got around to it.

Thats getting off topic. Anyway. cloudbuster is kinda right. I should find out for myself what Ti should be shaped like. Except that that'll take LOTS of time. And LOTS of money. It wouldn't fit with my current R&D budget. This is the research part of R&D. Where I ask someone else. The I analyze the data given to me and make professional decisions on where to go next. I.E. a photographic comparison between Ti rods and steel rods for the same engine. Expirementally, someone wants to fund airfoil shaped rods for a 6. I'll do that here soon.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 6 2006, 12:42 PM)

Carbide is the new thing with rings. I don't know why. I've got laser etching equipment at my disposal. I was planning to do some really exotic engravings, but I never got around to it.

i've never machined Ti, I have a couple of chunks I bought off of eBay, but for now, they are just collecting dust till I get really bored and have nothing to do...like that'll happen anytime soon

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 6 2006, 11:56 AM)

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 6 2006, 12:42 PM) Carbide is the new thing with rings. I don't know why. I've got laser etching equipment at my disposal. I was planning to do some really exotic engravings, but I never got around to it. i've never machined Ti, I have a couple of chunks I bought off of eBay, but for now, they are just collecting dust till I get really bored and have nothing to do...like that'll happen anytime soon

Like I said. high rake tooling and a .001 chipload at anygiven time. If you have to drill it, make one constant cut. All your tool wear will me on the engage in a cutting pass. I prefer to use high speed steel, because it's more forgiving in that kind of a situation.

I had the joy about 8 yrs ago working with some guys that had a bunch of 6" small blk chevy rods machined from ti and had issues with the coating wearing off quickly, which on a V8 is brutal. Shared journals means the rods rub against each other and ti-ti contact galls like a mf'er.

We searched and searched for almost a year at that time and found what was supposedly a good coating. They were willing to give me a set of 8 coated for $1200 to try in my engine, to which I quickly said fuck that! Build a crap 350 and just dyno it until is lets go I wasn't about to make my $9300 engine a test bed

Last I knew a serious sprint car of some sort ran 2 full seasons with a set, so apparently they got the coating right. And sprint car rpm/spikes/variations, etc is just a whole new world of pain for an engine. Let alone the quantity of dirt that gets ran through oil passages - it's like a blood alcohol content... oil blew .24 on the dirt meter

Another engine was a drag engine. In any case, both engines were torn down on a regular basis so it was easy to inspect the rods.

And I am with Twystd - ahh to be young again. And that is not trying to be an ass to alpha or one of those backhanded comments - I was just so much more eager to try anything and believe in my crazy ideas when I was 20. Christ, I was a god in my own mind at 20 and have to admit, it made for an interesting learning curve.

More power to you alpha! I know you say you gave up on it, but we all know in the back of your mind you are thinking "I could do that"..

And Eagle stuff is Chinese machined too - about 99% sure on that. At least that is what I was told by a vendor/middleman for Chinese stuff we were getting when I worked at a hot rod shop. Almost every set of Eagle H-beams I had to cut the caps and resize the big end because they were over spec. Machining is really hard to get good out of China, but the parts themselves are pretty solid. One of our customers was the first guy we knew of running 8.80s in a 10" tire Mustang with a blown 347 - right when the cheap Chinese rods and crank were hitting the market!!!

C'mon. I'd never give up. Regardless of what people tell me.
I don't know about being a god in my own world though. That sounds a little
I'm only interested in this because someone else is pushing me with funding to back it. Which means I get a free set and a few engines to test them in. I DO need to know the coating, though. VERY VERY important, obviously. If you could track that down and pm me, I'd be much obliged.

I'll see what I can do... it has been a long time since I had contact with those guys, but an "old boss" might still have the connection on the coating...

BTW, wasn't implying you think you are a god or in your own world... I said at 20 I thought I was a god... and when I was 20 most of the things I did went far beyond and straight to insane I still laugh when I recall my first time on Willow Springs - guy let me drive his vintage 70 Mustang Boss 302 T/A car for a couple of laps and on the second lap ever in a race car I was running 145+ down the front straight "bumping the rev limiter" - then when I came in he asked how many rpm I was turning because he could hear the valves floating Some rev limiter. I had that car in a complete 4-wheel drift through turn 5 on that lap too when it used to be narrow running a double apex - I would line up the second apex fully sideways and nail the throttle to hook it back up. I lost those balls about 5 years ago

He let me drive that car quite a bit after that "as long as I paid for 1/2 the tires and kept it below 7500"

If I can track that coating info down, I will PM you, but trust me, there is about a 1% chance on that. I am so bad with names... I knew it 8 years ago, but thinking back, we were talking to no less than 10 different aerospace coaters throughout the Southwest/Ca area and I can't remember a single name. Too much info for my long term memory to retain... what was the question?

You're the best.

It took about three times as long. But I think (after the coatings) that I've got every thing I need to make a move on this. I'm doing a test part out of aluminum. I guess I'll let everyone see that. Then I'll take that to my financial backer for revision and fitting to his 356s. Hopefully, I'll have something dynamic here. I may or may not be able to post pictures of the finished part. I'm going with a "low drag" shape that won't be a part of the test piece and may have to stay a secret. I've got a rocket scientist and 3 engineers to turn to if I have failure problems in the test stages.

And people really said I couldn't do it. I've already got three variations of cnc progs layed out.

So if anyone knows those coatings, That's what I need.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 6 2006, 11:32 AM)

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 6 2006, 05:52 AM) Before I forget Mike, Does your friend from China have any military hardware for sale???? . . . . . . . . . Dude.... Just couldn't help myself   ......... I'll have to ask ...once my "drama" is over, I'll be in the market for a .308 Win, leaning towards a Savage...buddy is building a .338 Lapua Magnum....going to cost more than my 914 I wanted a Ti wedding ring from Statman Designs but wife overruled that idea, hahaha

I have one of those - wife bought it as a birthday present after I lost (well it's not lost I know where it is) it on our honeymoon in a reef in Fiji.
That ring you showed is one of the expensive ones - his other ones are less than $150 I wear mine all the time unless I'm doing something that might break my finger. The rings come with a big warning that EMT's can't cut a TI ring off your finger and your hosed if it's broke. Mr. Statman is a cool guy too, he does this amazing work in a home shop.

Stay on topic! Coatings!!!

And yeah, those rings re really nice. I wanted to etch a japanese-style dragon in mine, but like I said, never got to it.

Progress update. Pictures!!!

and

and

One question I haven't seen anyone ask.. ..

All the applications I've seen for Titanium connecting rods are either in drag/sprint/or F1/Indy type of cars.. meaning very high RPM...

It makes sense to keep the mass low at 9000+ RPM

Does your backer think he's gonna see north of 7000RPM in a 356 engine?

I'd love to see the cylinder heads and push rod valve train which will live there..

What is his application?

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 9 2006, 07:08 PM)

I've got a rocket scientist and 3 engineers to turn to if I have failure problems in the test stages

that's funny (and not very impressive ).........believe it or not, there are a few of those on the site here and a few have responded to your questions

as for the coating, have you tried calling a few places and ask?

I'd try this place Sputtek...worse case is they say no, so you ask if they can recommend something or someplace........

If I was a manufacture of Ti rods and saw this post, I wouldn't be telling any trade secrects.

You could also try some other forums, but instead of coming off as a expert machinest in Ti, try being a little humble and just ask a general question on the coating....say you have a set of rods already and you are worried of the galling or something to that effect....

by the way, nice looking part.....I kinda wonder if there would be a market for half finished parts such that...done right it would look cool as a paperweight

I think this is one of those cases where the buyer has way too much money, and is basically buying bling, not function. He's managed to talk Alpha here into making them for him, and as long as Alpha is getting paid to do it, and isn't going to take a huge bath when the guy stiffs him later, I don't see there's a problem here. If course, if Alpha DOES get stiffed, then he'll still have learned something. Or that they end up breaking the first time they're used, and he ends up on the wrong end of a lawsuit.

Quite a few of the tuners I've met have had a "golden customer" come along with a big wad of money, racked up huge bills, and basically ended up giving them a "golden shower" instead. Hopefully, this isn't one of those cases, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope there.

Alpha,
I am at my machinist friends shop right now.

He suggesesd looking at SAE papers for your specific alloy of Ti.
On which specific coating would be the best for your application.

By the way... Nice start on your rods and cap... Giterdone.

Another question I asked my machinist friend is: What would happen if I machined a rod out of billet Ti. NOT a forging.??

He said: Depending on the alloy. If the rod was seeing 50 - 100 HP per rod on a basic street strip engine. NA or boosted AND NOT an endurance motor. You CAN probably get away with a billet rod with the appropriate coatings. NOT a forging..

Again... it depends on the alloy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTE: SAE books have the Ti quality's and breakdowns that you may need for future work as well as any metals that you may happen upon.

Keep in mind. This is just one guys opinions.

I am going to contact a friend of Bill Miller's (Guru Engine Guy) next week and see what he can find out. Miller makes Ti rods for many racers as well as aluminum rods.

He should know something that can be of some help.

LaterZzzzzz
By the way Alpha. You are a pain in the ass...

AND you have the balls to try something. Dude..you make me smile..

I haven't seen the non-club this pissy since since the last young guy came here asking alot of questions..

I love this shit... keep up the work..

Twystd1

Damn. What is wrong with you guys?!? I'm doing this for Al Lager. See the banner? I've worked for him for almost four years now. No golden showers.

The 356 engines we play with can get past 8000rpms but you can't hold it there. Just to get a downshift and then bring it down. Or to hold on just a little bit longer into a turn. I'm getting the first set for my "engine #9" prototype. And the next set will go to a 356 for immediate testing for further developement.

And I see 914club as open information sharing. Screw anyone who wants to think that it would be fun or funny to with hold information pertient to a project in need of help. Nothing in this stage of rod design is a secret. Every thing I've shown is used all over the place in rod design. Even the funny circular locators. I made another piece with all the secret features machined in to it. And I would happily post pictures of it, except you guys would hassle me for another 3 pages before I got one page of usable input.

And I tracked down some "radial grain" billet. Hehe. Could be better than forged. We'll see.

Alloy is Ti alpha/beta type 23. I can't remember the exact nomeclature for Ti. Its a lot different from steel or aluminum. But if you search for alloy type 23, youll find info on it, for all those interested.

Thank god someone like twysted is out there and actually WANTS to see something move forward. Without people like him, 904 gauges NEVER get made.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 9 2006, 11:45 PM)

Thank god someone like twysted is out there

Haha. And Matt. He's definately NOT a douchebag.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 10 2006, 12:01 AM)

Haha. And Matt. He's definately NOT a douchebag.

Nah, I'm a douchebag. I'll be the first to admit it.

Alpha...

Ya can't bag on MattR.. he knows me Oh too well.

And the little shit knows I am a douchebag... At times...

And Matt.....



I found your Your TI Specs

By the way... What else are you nuts working on over there??

OH... And speaking of gauges... HHHmmmmm

What about those 904 gauges???

What kind of bolts and what size are you going to use for the rods?

AND.. Are you going to use german bearings or set it up for American made steel backed HiPo bearings? Maybe even coated bearings? YES!!

Let us know whats up on your progress.

And watch out for MattR.. The little fuccer sneaks up on ya after a while.

AND:

Have I told you:

You are a pain in the ass................

Lately???

Cheers,
Twystd1

Giterdone .....

By the way,

I was chatting with some of the 356 contingent down here in SoCal.

They know your boss. And you are right..

In the 356 world.. he is very well respected.

And yup he was with Mark Donahue and a young Penski and all those guys back in the day.

He sounds like a very interesting fellow.

If I come up your way... I'll let ya buy me lunch.... With your boss..!!

Twystd1

proceed with caution

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 10 2006, 02:55 AM)

By the way, I was chatting with some of the 356 contingent down here in SoCal. They know your boss. And you are right.. In the 356 world.. he is very well respected. And yup he was with Mark Donahue and a young Penski and all those guys back in the day. He sounds like a very interesting fellow. If I come up your way... I'll let ya buy me lunch.... With your boss..!! Twystd1

Damn right. Al can make a 911 eat 356 brake dust.

I get all of my scariest ideas directly from him. This Ti jobbers' been on the chopping block for a while. Need to start knocking down projects for this season.

I'd be happy to buy you lunch. I'll make Al sit through it.

Pankl Ti, Pauter, Stock

The Pankl rod is a consumable, according to PMNA, 40 hours out and into the scrap pile...

Ive had some pretty knowledgable engine builders, metalurgists, material scientists tell me that the Pankl rod is just that, a consumable.. the big end needs beefing up....

we all need a left hand monkey wrench

This is the "parting line" of the coating... after machining the rods are hung from the small end, and dipped...

The coating Pankl uses on the rods is proprietary.. they use it on rods they make.. its not sold to outside vendors

QUOTE (TimT @ Feb 10 2006, 06:19 PM)

The Pankl rod is a consumable, according to PMNA, 40 hours out and into the scrap pile...

Are these for the RS?

Ya they are out of a car that raced at Le Mans

fascinating. I feel like I'm in school again. Only this school is about cool stuff!

A quick google search... thats a TRG car? Do you know John?

Alpha.

Try giving these guys a call.

These guys

OR:

DLC: Diamond Like Coatings

I am still trying to find someone in Colorado that knows more data.

And yea... I will have eats with you and your boss. Dam right....

Now get those suckers made and lets see if they blow up or not.

By the way...What kind of valve train are you guys running that is light enough to handle a 8K+ consistently.

What lifters?
What rockers?
Push rods?
Basic cam specs.
Spring heighth and spring pressures
Your first born. Etc....

If your boss says you can share that data. I am interested in it.
Simply because it might have some carry over into our type 4 world.

Especially any technology that allows us CSOB to gain a bit of horse power and/or longevity out of our stroker or large engines.

The stockers seem to last just fine if assembled well. And most of us can't afford a Pro built engine.
And some of us (ME) just like to do it ourselves in the name of machanical interest and my own ego. (Which is almost as big as Aaron's)


So if ya have anything for us... bring it on.. if not...

Just giterdone.

Any technology that you have, that can be shared here is good for the team.

Twystd1

Hehe. The valve train is actually somewhat stock.

But you wouldn't know if I showed it to you. The springs he uses are NLA, so we're down to whats left in his private stock to use. Lifters are stock, weight reduced. The rockers have so many god damn holes drilled in them its not even funny. Ok it is.

But thats what really goes into a race car. LOTS of time and effort. No room for half assing it.

Most of the things that we do with the 356s I will be applying to a prototype IV engine. HIYA!

I JUST got pictures of porsche factory Ti rods. MADE by porsche factory for their 2.0L engine. This was stated by Bruce Anderson, who is an expert on 911s.

Shape is dead nuts exactly the same. The factory Ti rods have a 100 hour limit. H-shaped.

I'm ready to start blowing stuff up. I'll be getting to that ppoint here, soon.

If you're really serious about that stuff, then pm me. I'm sick of people calling me an idiot over this kinda stuff. I might even give you the specs for the final connecting rod design. But people have been spending a LOT of time laughing at me over the past few weeks.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 11 2006, 02:01 AM)

If you're really serious about that stuff, then pm me. I'm sick of people calling me an idiot over this kinda stuff. I might even give you the specs for the final connecting rod design. But people have been spending a LOT of time laughing at me over the past few weeks.

You're gonna have to find your own way of communicating so as not to sound like an idiot. ....I'm still working on that, but if I figure it out, I'll let you know.

I never laugh at anyone who's getting paid to do something they love to do. Now, those of us who aren't getting paid to bust our asses on off the wall stuff...

Maybe I am lost here but is the journey to build a ti rod IN HOUSE or is the result to have a light weight TI rod for a project.????

As for TI, to machine a Ti rod one needs a Ti forging, a piece of billet won't get the job done. Don't ask me how I know!

I have used crower Ti con rods for years with much more life than 40 hours. They will make any con rod in Ti very reasonably. If the journey is not the idea, and the result is, then call Crower, you will have them in 5 weeks. And a Ti Rod must have an upper end bushing. Crower uses some sort of surface treatment on their Ti rods.

Erik Madsen

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 11 2006, 03:01 AM)

I'm sick of people calling me an idiot over this kinda stuff.

no one's called you an idiot, but you cannot come across as an expert and then ask

QUOTE

What's a net shaped forging?

....being in the machining industry, that should be common knowledge, maybe you were kidding, it just didn't come across that way


Erik,

GRP, a Denver, CO. company, maker of billet titanium connecting rods

....has little criss-crosses in them.....

Yes kidding.

Chris, I like your use of radial serration. Must be hell on those cutters! Sure have some kick ass tooling around there, that's for sure. I've never seen it applied to anything other than an aluminum rod since there's really no way to rebuild them. But I guess that doesn't matter considering in the scenario we're discussing they are disposable items anyways.

So Alpha,

Whats new on the rod thang???

Did any of the links or data we gave ya help on getting your rods done?

Twystd1