I intend on making myself titanium connecting rods. Don't tell me its a bad idea. I'm already set on doing it. BUT, I want input on the exact shape. I'm assuming that the structure has to be a little different to downplay brittleness in titanium. Porsche factory did titanium. Does anyone have one that could take a picture for me?

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 4 2006, 04:24 PM)

I want input on the exact shape. I'm assuming that the structure has to be a little different to downplay brittleness in titanium. Porsche factory did titanium. Does anyone have one that could take a picture for me?

without the ability to make near-net-shape forgings i think you'll find shape is not important.

brittle? are we talking about the same titanium? because one thing the titanium i know about is not is brittle (which is why it's so good for springs; brittle materials typically don't make good springs...)

the Porsche factory BOUGHT titanium rods for most of their racing engines at one time or another. the current round of GT3RSR still does. from Pankl IIRC. Arrow also makes nice Ti rods.

I have 18 Pankl Ti rods at the shop, 12 are going out for an attempt at being reconditioned, We just recieved 6 from PMNA and they are junk also, they were packed in one bag with no protection between the rods. So back to PMNA they go!

Back on topic, The Porsche Motorsports Ti rods look just like regular 996 rods, they dont have any extra reinforcement

I have learned that after machining the Ti rods are treated with some sort of surface coating that is needed.

The metalurgists that visited the shop and critiqued the rods was adamant about having no stress risers on the rod surface, a little teeny nick that might be ignored on a steel rod can be a big problem on a Ti rod. Ti is a pain to machine also.

Have fun!

Without getting into detail, you will be much better off trying to do a set in aluminum. Once you've demonstrated proficiency, you might consider moving onto something more complex. The billet aluminum is relatively affordable, to get titanium billet of the necessary alloy, you could purchase a nice 914 before you even started thinking about what it would require to machine, heat treat, and finish it.

Good luck with that

QUOTE (LvSteveH @ Feb 4 2006, 01:04 PM)

Without getting into detail, you will be much better off trying to do a set in aluminum. Once you've demonstrated proficiency, you might consider moving onto something more complex. The billet aluminum is relatively affordable, to get titanium billet of the necessary alloy, you could purchase a nice 914 before you even started thinking about what it would require to machine, heat treat, and finish it. Good luck with that

Ha. Way to understate my abilities. (Said while chris plays with the titanium ring on his finger)

Aluminum and titanium are two completely different subjects. Any rookie who shows proficiency with aluminum is going to blow up some tooling with titanium. Lots of tooling. And most rookies like to blow up the real expensive tooling first.

Next, you can't heat treat titanium conventionally. It requires a vacuum to keep it from oxidizing or combusting.

Third, titanium springs are made from an alpha/beta composite alloy. This is the most expensive titanium you could ever hope to by. I'm going to try to make the connecting rods out of beta alloy; which is actually 70% magnesium and stronger then the 99% pure based on molecular bonding.

What's a net shaped forging? If there's an advantage to a particular shape, that's the info I want.

Ok.... alpha and beta and alpha/beta are not alloys..... they are categories of alloys. There are dozens of specific alloys in each category that are tailored to specific properties and applications. Heat treatment does not need to be done in a vacuum.

How many type 4's have you heard of that are limited by their connecting rod options? There are plenty of available crank/rod combinations to meet the needs of even the most aggressive type 4. Unless of course you enjoy bench racing..... then the sky's the limit!

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 4 2006, 02:24 PM)

What's a net shaped forging?

Is that a joke?

QUOTE (TimT @ Feb 4 2006, 12:54 PM)

I have 18 Pankl Ti rods at the shop, 12 are going out for an attempt at being reconditioned, We just recieved 6 from PMNA and they are junk also, they were packed in one bag with no protection between the rods. So back to PMNA they go! Back on topic, The Porsche Motorsports Ti rods look just like regular 996 rods, they dont have any extra reinforcement I have learned that after machining the Ti rods are treated with some sort of surface coating that is needed. The metalurgists that visited the shop and critiqued the rods was adamant about have no stress risers on the rod surface, a little teeny nick that might be ignored on a steel rod can be a big problem on a Ti rod. Ti is a pain to machine also. Have fun!

Bump.

What kind of surface coating?
Black oxide?
Or why is the coating there, for surace protecting or olefilia(did i spell that right?)
That one could be important.

A net-shape forging is one that requires minimal machining to finish, and probably only the journals.

Since Tim says that the Ti rods are visually similar to the 993 rods, I'd guess the shape is nearly independant of the metallurgy.

Does Porsche still use the "broken" rod concept where the big end is "broken" to make a perfectly fitted cap?

QUOTE (LvSteveH @ Feb 4 2006, 02:52 PM)

Ok.... alpha and beta and alpha/beta are not alloys..... they are categories of alloys. There are dozens of specific alloys in each category that are tailored to specific properties and applications. Heat treatment does not need to be done in a vacuum. How many type 4's have you heard of that are limited by their connecting rod options? There are plenty of available crank/rod combinations to meet the needs of even the most aggressive type 4. Unless of course you enjoy bench racing..... then the sky's the limit!

Annealing can be done outside a vacuum, but otherwise, atleast a purge gas is absolutely needed.

And I don't care about having limitations on connecting rod options. I'm being pushed into this project by someone who wants about four dozen of them for his 356s.

Alpha and beta are categories. Just like 8000 series stainless. Or 1000 series low carbon steel. But I'm going by the basic characteristics of each.

As long as net shaped forgings doesn't mean little criss crosses in the shape, I'm joking.

QUOTE (davep @ Feb 4 2006, 03:00 PM)

A net-shape forging is one that requires minimal machining to finish, and probably only the journals. Since Tim says that the Ti rods are visually similar to the 993 rods, I'd guess the shape is nearly independant of the metallurgy. Does Porsche still use the "broken" rod concept where the big end is "broken" to make a perfectly fitted cap?

Thats how carillo does theirs.

I believe the coating on the Pankl Ti rods is an oleophilic coating. Ti and steel dont get along together on there own so a coating is needed. The Pankl rods are dipped to coat, you can see where they were hung by the wrist pin, and dipped.

We found an aerospace company thats going to have a look at the 12 paperwieghts we have and see if they can, or will refresh them.

We cant get the rods from Pankl because they have an agreement to sell them only to Porsche motorsports.

Also the metallurgist mentioned that the Pankl rods should have a more reinforced big end..

I wouldn't screw with titanium unless there is a real need for it.

Stuff is a bitch. Don't know what you are doing and you have junk pretty quick. Even people that work with it day in and day out can't explain it's behavior sometimes.

One vendor I worked with made military parts and stuff for us. He would place a sheet in the form die and whack it to form a shape. Sometimes, from the same lot of maleable material, the shit would explode and fracture like glass.......

My model shop usta machine waveguides and other parts outa the stuff. Ever seen a master model maker roll his eyes when you come in with anything that needs to be machined from titanium?

Wash it all in distilled water. One dose of chlorine from the tap water and.... "BINK" you will have broken parts at some unknown time in the future.

Like steel or aluminum, you need to pick a grade of material that matches your material strength and ductility issues.

Ken

Titanium needs a coating like a DLC type coating. Titanium hates to be "rubbed". You know like what happens everytime the crank turns and the rod touches the cheek on the counter wieght.

Stress risers are a huge no-no when dealing with Ti. One little nic, ding, scratch, etc and they will fail at that point. I don't know if you can shotpeen the material or not. I know Cheverolet is using the rods in the new LS7 engine.

QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 06:09 PM)

Ever seen a Ti fire? DON"T put water on it.

i thought that was Magnesium.....

I think this might be interesting

QUOTE (davep @ Feb 4 2006, 03:00 PM)

A net-shape forging

Is just that college boy.

Minimum machine work to save manufacturing costs...

6 AL 4 V

QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM)

Why do I even open a thread started by this guy? Sorry if that offends you or anyone else but maybe I'm just tired.... P

Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say.

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 4 2006, 09:29 PM)

QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM) Why do  I even open a thread started by this guy? Sorry if that offends you or anyone else but maybe I'm just tired.... P Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say.

Matt,

I'm deleting my post. I shouldn't have....

Paul

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 4 2006, 10:29 PM)

QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM) Why do  I even open a thread started by this guy? Sorry if that offends you or anyone else but maybe I'm just tired.... P Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say.

Well! Golly! We don't want to hurt anyones feelings. I just wish I knew what the fuck they're all talking about.
Cheers, Elliot

QUOTE (Elliot Cannon @ Feb 4 2006, 09:47 PM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 4 2006, 10:29 PM) QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM) Why do  I even open a thread started by this guy? Sorry if that offends you or anyone else but maybe I'm just tired.... P Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say. Well! Golly! We don't want to hurt anyones feelings. I just wish I knew what the fuck they're all talking about. Cheers, Elliot

Ouch. . .

At least Tim wanted to help.

to get a better idea of the design/shape differences between steel, alum and Ti, I'd look at Chevy rods.

Easy to find and some you could get for free that have been used past thier useful life.

Study each one to see where material was added or removed.....just make sure you are comparing rods from the same motor and size.....

Check out this page, they show a 911 Ti rod from a 2.2, now all you need to do is find a picture of a 2.2 steel unit and compare to get a general idea.

Pauter Racing

all i know about ti is that machining is a bitch and you treat it like its made of glass when handling it, and above all it's a waste of money unless your budget can afford unobtainium and then why would they come to you for some thing that is so diffacult and fragile to produce with reliabilty for critical engine componants when they should be going to a manufacture that has tested and proven processes to make these parts.
sorry but it seems someone is stroking you. or maybe doesn't know what their getting into.

QUOTE (messix @ Feb 5 2006, 12:11 AM)

all i know about ti is that machining is a bitch and you treat it like its made of glass when handling it, and above all it's a waste of money unless your budget can afford unobtainium and then why would they come to you for some thing that is so diffacult and fragile to produce with reliabilty for critical engine componants when they should be going to a manufacture that has tested and proven processes to make these parts. sorry but it seems someone is stroking you. or maybe doesn't know what their getting into.

Alright. You guys have talked me out of it.

Yeah right. Did nobody read the first post? You aren't going to talk me out of it.

Pros and Cons.
Possibility of obtaining a usable design +
Slight performance upgrade +
Possibilty of blown engine to get there -
High cost of material (which I'm NOT paying for, and which I AM trained to machine) -
Data obtained from research and developement +++++

And the one about the Ti fires was funny. Yes I've seen Ti burn. Melted a hole through three feet of concrete. Some kid tried to "heat treat" it and it ignited. Burned a hole in the oven too. Never seen Ti burn with water like Mg though. I had the owner of a company turn on the coolant once while I was running Mg. I quit over that. Nothing caught fire.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 4 2006, 11:47 PM)

QUOTE (Elliot Cannon @ Feb 4 2006, 09:47 PM) QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 4 2006, 10:29 PM) QUOTE (URY914 @ Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM) Why do  I even open a thread started by this guy? Sorry if that offends you or anyone else but maybe I'm just tired.... P Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say. Well! Golly! We don't want to hurt anyones feelings. I just wish I knew what the fuck they're all talking about. Cheers, Elliot Ouch. . . At least Tim wanted to help.

Ahh, dont worry about elliotT. He's just a grumpy old guy...

Just stay with it...

Anything that can help OUR cause is of great relavence.

Twystd1

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 5 2006, 12:45 AM)

Slight performance upgrade +

I would say more like zero REAL performance upgrade.

But now if you doing this to have something to do, to get some pratice with Ti thats a different story. But hay not start a little smaller, like a Ti fuel pump bracket (like the 935 one below) or door handle? You know, something useful.

TI 935 fuel pump bracket.
Simple.

Stuff I think I know bout Titanium:

Expensive in aircraft grades.

Notch sensetive, but sure as hell not fragile.
Fragile don't cut it when you're trying to hold back 100K lbs of thrust.

Sensetive to the Halogens but only in hi-temp (over 600 deg F) service.

Special cutters required...not to mention feeds & speeds.
Heavy duty machines are needed. Ti wears these out pretty quickly.

Heat treat with vacuum furnace.

Alpha case is a killer.....if you don't know what Alpha case is, you better find out.

UT, Xray & penetrant insp for NDT.

Billet sux for rods.....and most hi strength parts. Read up on grain direction

Forgings are REAL expensive and the lead time is about 2 years for a die.....maybe less for a smaller one.

Russia has most of the raw material.....a big percentage.

The outfit I work for machines hundreds of tons of the stuff per year......mainly because few biddensses want to screw with it.......expense of materials is the main bug a boo. We machine forgings that cost over 100k American....minus shipping

Good luck.

My guess is the raw material alone would cost about what you paid for your 914! And then you've got to make forging dies....

Where's the keep my lip buttoned smile???

Spend your money on getting your speedometer recalibrated!

Aw... You guys are to hard on the kid....

The machinist I use is making a set of billet Ti rods for a Suby engine as we speak.

He has been fabricating one off trick stuff for years..

He bought the Ti from from a metal testing lab for cheap.

It's a amazing what you can find if you only need enough metal for one project. On the cheap.....

So Alpha.. I assume you are going to spin this engine VERY FAST...

What kind of RPMs are you looking for???

Twystd1

Twystd

Titanium and cheap don't go together in the same sentence.

Was the Ti from the materials lab load tested?

The surface of the crap work hardens as you machine it so second pass may be much more difficult than the first.

Grinds ok though......

There is a reason they don't sell titanium sheet....

They sell titanium foil because of all the trouble they have to go through to make it.... Try to bend it 90 degrees and it work hardens and..... snap...... Hadda come up with localized laser heating for that one......

Titanium makes a great getter when heated..... Sucks up every stray gas molecule it can... can you say embrittlement boys and girls.

Bet your machinist has a whole new vocabulary of words.... #$)%$&&%&#_%+%%

Ken

QUOTE (kwales @ Feb 5 2006, 05:08 PM)

Twystd Titanium and cheap don't go together in the same sentence. Was the Ti from the materials lab load tested? The surface of the crap work hardens as you machine it so second pass may be much more difficult than the first. Grinds ok though...... There is a reason they don't sell titanium sheet.... They sell titanium foil because of all the trouble they have to go through to make it.... Try to bend it 90 degrees and it work hardens and..... snap...... Hadda come up with localized laser heating for that one...... Titanium makes a great getter when heated..... Sucks up every stray gas molecule it can... can you say embrittlement boys and girls. Bet your machinist has a whole new vocabulary of words.... #$)%$&&%&#_%+%% Ken

Relax, Ken, it's just a Subie engine.

QUOTE (kwales @ Feb 5 2006, 05:08 PM)

Twystd Titanium and cheap don't go together in the same sentence. Was the Ti from the materials lab load tested? The surface of the crap work hardens as you machine it so second pass may be much more difficult than the first. Grinds ok though...... There is a reason they don't sell titanium sheet.... They sell titanium foil because of all the trouble they have to go through to make it.... Try to bend it 90 degrees and it work hardens and..... snap...... Hadda come up with localized laser heating for that one...... Titanium makes a great getter when heated..... Sucks up every stray gas molecule it can... can you say embrittlement boys and girls. Bet your machinist has a whole new vocabulary of words.... #$)%$&&%�_%+%% Ken

Its amazing you are so critical of other people's abilities.

How do you know his machinist hasnt done R&D for major auto makers? How do you know his machinist didnt write the book on engine machining? How do you know this machinist hasnt been a college instructor? And has been doing this for YEARS.

I happen to use the same machinist as Clayton, and if he says he can work with Ti, it means he has done it and probably mastered it.

Also, cheap is relative. So is speed. And speed isnt cheap.

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 5 2006, 05:30 PM)

Its amazing you are so critical of other people's abilities.

It's amazing how you seem so tolerant of a guy that everyone else thinks is out in left field.

Matt,

As an engineer, I've had some painful lessons from Titanium and have learned to have a lot of respect for it. I only use it when needed. Those "critical" statements of mine are factual and learned from the school of hard knocks.

I would just feel bad for anyone if they had made parts from titanium, didn't watch out for the many pitfalls of the stuff, and someone got a nasty surprise in a high rpm condition. All it takes is something simple as a wash in tap water to turn titanium into a ticking time bomb that will come apart.

Everybody I know that can work the stuff cusses when I bring them titanium. The guys I use make parts for GE Aircraft Engines for a living.

What's that JP? Subie parts? .... Nevermind

Ken

Gee thanks URY...

Love you too

Ken

QUOTE (kwales @ Feb 5 2006, 07:31 PM)

Gee thanks URY... Love you too Ken

Ken, you got it wrong.
I was saying how Matt keeps sticking up for Alpha434.
I have no problem with what you said.

Paul

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 5 2006, 05:30 PM)

Its amazing you are so critical of other people's abilities.

It isn't the abilities. Its the attitude -- "I don't care what you think, but I want what you know."

If gathering R&D information is such a '++++++' then why be hamstrung with information from a bunch of tradition-bound, naysaying sticks in the mud?

I say, "Defy convention!" Find out for yourself what shape Ti wants to be when spun around a crankshaft at 6K RPM. Build a single cylinder engine just like Ricardo and run connecting rods to destruction. Then, be sure to test to destruction a few times, just to make sure your final shape truly is a correct match for the purpose and conditions for which it was intended.

QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Feb 5 2006, 08:28 PM)

QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 5 2006, 05:30 PM) Its amazing you are so critical of other people's abilities. It isn't the abilities. Its the attitude -- "I don't care what you think, but I want what you know." If gathering R&D information is such a '++++++' then why be hamstrung with information from a bunch of tradition-bound, naysaying sticks in the mud? I say, "Defy convention!" Find out for yourself what shape Ti wants to be when spun around a crankshaft at 6K RPM. Build a single cylinder engine just like Ricardo and run connecting rods to destruction. Then, be sure to test to destruction a few times, just to make sure your final shape truly is a correct match for the purpose and conditions for which it was intended.

My post was in response to Tywstd1's machinst.

I'm pretty sick of this thread. I get it, alpha has rubbed a few of you the wrong way. Big deal! He isnt the first 20 year old post whore (myself?). I'm just going to relax. I have midterms this week and next week, and I have a few long nights preparing for a POC thing this weekend..

Thanks URY,

You DID notice the other smiley below the finger smiley didn't you?

Ya gotta learn sometime guys. A lot of things I've done have been in spite of people saying it couldn't be done...

Knock yerself out...

Mmmmmmmm popcorn....

Ken

You guy's have me smiling.

Especially when the young ones get my anger up...

Of course Alpha is all about himslef. Thats how it is now days. (like I was)

The young ones always push the older guys. Thats how they find their place in the circle of men..

Sometime I just forget what it was like to be a young man who thinks that I know better than the old guys..
And not know how to ask the questions in a way that will promote harmony instead of animosity.

So Alpha.. you just go ahead and make us nay sayers wrong. The worst that will happen is you will learn something.

The best that will happen you will learn something...

Either way.. you can't lose anything more than time and $s.

And Alpha... We will all continue to kick your ass around... Only to teach you... Just like I was taught....
It's a good thing.. You will see that in time.

If you need any help on the fab side.. PM me... You can talk to my machinist friend for some data...

He has doing this kind of R&d stuff for racing teams and such for 30 years....

Including all of the coatings and metal treatment you will need after you are finished machining your rods.

Make us wrong Alpha. And learn while ya do it.

And thanks for being on this forum... And reminding me about what it was like to be a young man...

AND a serious PAIN IN THE ass.......

Regards to all.....

Twystd1


PS: I am still laughing as I proof read this...
I love the young guys.... They keep me straight and on purpose.

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 5 2006, 09:11 PM)

I love the young guys.... They keep me straight

Not aaron...


oh wait... nevermind

old guys rock. they share knowledge that theyve accumulated. kinda accelerates the whole learning process whenyou got someone who has BTDT 50 years before....

Note:

According to the boyz at shop talk forums...

Ti rods in Type1 style will be sold through CB performance very soon........

They will be ostensibly made by eagle rods.

Jake paid bout 2,350 for a set (4) of crowers.

Hey Richard... Give us the dope on what you know about the Ti rods that are coming up for sale..

Cause ya see guys... Richard knows stuff none of us know... he is just that kind of guy.....

Richard,
And yup... we are having dinner next week.. With MattR
I am afraid to tell you......

Twystd1

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 5 2006, 10:42 PM)

Richard, And yup... we are having dinner next week.. With MattR I am afraid to tell you...... Twystd1

Sweet.

Do I get to pay too?

QUOTE (Twystd1 @ Feb 5 2006, 11:42 PM)

They will be ostensibly made by eagle rods.

are Eagle rods made in China?

had an interesting talk with a fellow that mentioned quite a bit of forged items that come from China used for cars are made in foundries that specialize in Military hardware...

Mike I don't have a clue.

But much like SCAT... I know that Eagle DOES have some of their forgings produced in China and are finish machined in the USA..

Thats all I know.

And someone said earlier that Ti rods are typically forged and then machined to keep the grain structure going correctly.. I do believe they are correct.

Now I have to ask my machinist how he is going to use Billet Ti rods that may have grain structure issues...

The more time I spend on this forum.. the more I reralize that I don't know jack...

Thank god for the guys that do..!!!!!!!!

ME.. Thinking about Slits... Who is.........Thinking about Aaron......

Twystd1