Here's a picture of a rocker that we did for a 356.

And BTW. Our 356's rev 8000.

vey cool!

(get a digital camera )

are they forged or cast?

what kinda pushrods do you use? valve springs? etc

Haha.

Special springs that are NLA.

Stock pushrods.

Cast.

And that IS a digital camera. It's my Palm Zire 71. Almost all of my pictures were taken with it.




And THIS is my 1000th post!!!! Hooray!

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 11 2006, 03:42 PM)

Haha. Special springs that are NLA. Stock pushrods. Cast. And that IS a digital camera. It's my Palm Zire 71. Almost all of my pictures were taken with it. And THIS is my 1000th post!!!! Hooray!

NLA springs???

all you have to do is get them tested and get new ones made just like those, plenty of places that'll make 'em for you.....

Racer Chris or Jake has posted Type IV rockers lightened up just like those......

We've got a stockpile of them.

We are not worried about running out.


And we drill everything. You should see some of the holes I have to put in things.

Palm doesn't make digital cameras. Palm makes PDAs with camera functions.

I lighten mine without drilling any holes... All done with a rotary file and a lot of time...

Good work how many grams did you take from them total?

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 11 2006, 02:19 PM)

Here's a picture of a rocker that we did for a 356. And BTW. Our 356's rev 8000.

Whaddya do about the oil passage? Hard to see in the picture. The Cap'n

Last time I pulled off my valve covers on my 912 for a valve adjust, I saw the length of the outer rocker arms and just laughed.

Who the hell is "we"? And "our"? Pretty sure you don't have 356 money.

QUOTE (Gint @ Mar 11 2006, 07:22 PM)

Who the hell is "we"? And "our"? Pretty sure you don't have 356 money.

al lager im guessing.


very cool stuff chris

QUOTE (Gint @ Mar 11 2006, 06:22 PM)

Who the hell is "we"?  And "our"?  Pretty sure you don't have 356 money.

Jeeze Gint. I've been under RSR's for Al. Didn't I mention? Prepping racers since I was 15. So I'm not JUST a smartass. 20 minutes on the rear tires!

And he MAKES me drive 'em. Even if I didn't want to.

I'm not sure how many grams we whacked off of it. Al has those numbers written down somewhere. But yeah. They started out as the lightest stock lifter (which only came in some particular year.) We driller. Counterbored. Countersunk. Filed. Ground. And then polished. Took like a hundred hours for eight rockers. That's an exageration.

Alpha, Jake,

Ever considered using wire EDM or ram EDM to make holes or lighten the parts?

With the wire, you can make the holes larger, with the ram, you make a copper electrode to the final shape and burn yer way through the part to the final result. With the right shaped electrode, you can reduce outside profile, modify the inner profile (to thin the walls where you want, and add lightening holes.

Finish is rough, but that's what tumble deburr and polishing is for. Also can make a gang electrode to do multiple parts simultaneously. That's where CNC shines....

Need a good fixture to hold a set of rockers in alignment, a good electrode, and an evening of EDM run time. Can also flip parts over and do farside for the other side inner profile.

Alpha, know how much you LOVE machining copper...

Anyway, sumpthin to think about.... Prolly not cheap but 100 hours at whatever they pay you might make it cost effective.

Ken

Need a really good house? Here are the guys I usta work with..... Morris Technologies

J&J decided to dump our model shop and most of the guys ended up at this outfit. Matter of fact, the model shop never moved from the plant, the Morris name appeared on the door and the uniforms.

These guys can do ANYTHING. They have full CNC machining and tooling centers, RAM and wire EDM, SLA molding tanks (hard or elastomeric materials), SLS (Sintered laser sintering- metal or plastic), plastics molding (small parts), laser welding, TIG, urethane casting, etc.

Most of the guys are master model makers and prototype makers. A lot of them came from Kenner toys plus the J&J work for the last 15 years. Lotta prototype Star Wars toy stuff laying around.

Chuck Hansford is the guy there. You can even use my name. Prolly won't curse too much..

Ken

Yeah. I've got access to EDM equipment. And I've done some of it. Copper is a PITA to machine. I said that it was tougher than Ti. It's like machining play dough. BUT I can do it. And diodes aren't very complex. Why not just use a brass diode?
I've thought about it once before. Huge PITA.

But now I'm thinking about it again. Good idea.



And JESUS CHRIST! That is one well set-up shop. Laser welding. Plastic injection. Those two pieces of equipment alone would be enough to buy a few shops around here.

Type IV rockers are forged and the outer surface is quite hard but the core is more ductile. A carbide drill is required to drill holes. I made fixturing to support the rockers with the web flat for drilling in a drill press.
Thinning out the web is done with carbide burrs.
EDM might save some time.
The last step that should be done is to shot peen them after all material removal to increase their strength.

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Mar 12 2006, 10:58 AM)

Type IV rockers are forged and the outer surface is quite hard but the core is more ductile. A carbide drill is required to drill holes. I made fixturing to support the rockers with the web flat for drilling in a drill press. Thinning out the web is done with carbide burrs. EDM might save some time. The last step that should be done is to shot peen them after all material removal to increase their strength.

You're right about surface hardened. All rockers are. Not exclusive to type IV.

We go back and case harden ours, at my recomendation.
Then we shot peen it to get all the carbon crap off of it.

Heat treating it for core hardness is a good way to go.

And I use high speed steel anyway. Carbide does not like the shock of going into a convex curve. And I sharpen my own drill bits for that purpose. Skill saves on tooling costs.

The advantage of EDMing would be the ability to put an odd shaped hole into it. Like a square or a triangle. More mass out by being able to get into the corners.

ok, a non machine shop guy question...

How come you dont use aluminum or titanium rockers...I mean make them..

Then you could make the shape and size you want..and they would be lighter..right??

Rich

Inconvenience.

I'm making aluminum ones for a type IV.

They are more than strong enough if done properly.

Titanium is possible, but I already have a lot to chew on that plate. No comment. And it doesn't take a hit very well. The slapping during warmup, while the valve lash is closing would break them.

And kudos to Rich Towle for thinking. That was a very good and informative question.

QUOTE

How come you dont use aluminum or titanium rockers...I mean make them..

Fatigue strength, cost, workability, longevity.

The benefits of lightening cast rockers, are small, but when trying to find every drop of performance every little thing adds up..

The Moment of Inertia of a rocker arm that only moves a few tenths of an inch is small to begin with

QUOTE (TimT @ Mar 12 2006, 07:44 PM)

QUOTE How come you dont use aluminum or titanium rockers...I mean make them.. Fatigue strength, cost, workability, longevity. The benifits of lightening cast rockers, are small, but when trying to find every drop of performance everty little thing adds up.. The Moment of Inertia of a rocker arm that only moves a few tenths of an inch is small to begin with,

It's really R&D time to make them. None of the above. If there was truly a will to make them, then we would.


And....

directional carbon fiber reinforced titanium rod.

Think about that.

QUOTE

None of the above. If there was truly a will to make them, then we would.

Simply wrong,

a number of years ago someone floated some aluminum roller rocker arms for 911s...

in the end the cost/complexity/benefit of them never exceeded that of the off the shelf Porsche rockers.

Someone has made improved 911 rockers..

and yes I realize Im not talking 914 now

Clay Dopke used take cast rockers, stress relieve them, shot peen, polish, etc..

Do me a favor and tell me the MOI of a stock rocker arm, and one of your lightened rocker arms?

By no means am I slamming your work... just making an observation that this is on the extreme end of performance benefits

The gains found in lightening the rocker arms ar most very minimal. As TimT said. MOI is very small. The biggest change you can make to the valve train is in the valve and lifter pushrod side.

You can take the stock rockers and fit them with needle bearings for a decent upgrade. You really won't see much in the way of HP improvement, but the "rev-ability" of the engine will improve as will heat going into the oil.

One thing that many people over look is camshaft design. That is one area where our engines are at a major disadvantange. When we start "lofting" the valves over the nose of the cam we really haven't gotten into anything exciting.

Wait till you see the heads that we just finished for the LN Engineering 356/616 project engine....

Len boosted the head flow by 25% with NO welding necessary from some new seat and port profiles...

We'll be posting pics soon for the 180HP street engine we are building for LN Engineering..

No more 10mm valve stems either!

I prefer stock rockers over anything aftermarket.. Losing the "Self oiling" characteristic is a step backward IMHO... I have broken ONE stock rocker and that was just 2 weeks ago and it happened out of the blue on the dyno...

Rockers are one of those items the aftermarket can't make money on if they make them better than the factory, and trust me we have looked into and even made some rockers along the way and they have not superceded stock! I have a set of Titanium TIV rockers that one of my FP 914 customers paid 1600 bucks for, they are sitting on the shelf while BOTH of his engines have stock TIV rockers on them and they will remain that way as long as I'm assembling his engines...

NHRA top fuel drag cars use aluminum rockers.

High maintenance is the cost of high performance. A revised head design would be optimal.

Lightening the valvetrain and reciprocating components is what I would call "the point of refinement." It's where you've already gotten a lot from your car and have to walk a hundred miles to get that last 5 horses.

And I wasn't going to mention the needle bearing trick. I didn't know anyone else knew that. Oh well. Run your breather to the exhaust while you're at it.

QUOTE

Run your breather to the exhaust while you're at it.

SCCA and many other organizations get a little ill about that trick. You are better off with a super tight motor and a large dry sump pump. That can pull 15in if it is setup right.

Do that and you can run 2 ring pistons and all kinds of other cool stuff.

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 12 2006, 10:59 PM)

And I wasn't going to mention the needle bearing trick. I didn't know anyone else knew that. Oh well. Run your breather to the exhaust while you're at it.

don't worry too much about your "tricks", 'cause I highly doubt you or your engine builder has many that everyone else knows about or has tried already

needle bearings have been used in that application years before you even got your drivers license