QUOTE (DblDog @ Mar 13 2006, 12:43 AM)

...a little OT, but still Fiat...about the time I bought my 914 in 72, I also considered a BMW2002 and a Fiat 124, the coupe. They also sold the 124 Spider, neat little convertible. The body sheet metal was different from the coupe....both were not bad looking and never really caught on. I think MotorTrend did a few comparison articles ...I'll find some pics.

No need to find pics. Look in the SANDBOX, and you'll find pictures of my Coupe. The Spider most certainly DID catch on. They made 500,000 of them (five times more cars than 914s, and about as many as they made MGBs). They were produced for 30 years, and the bulk of production headed to the US in the later years.

Actually...total production figures for the Fiat Spider, that is, the convertible, runs to about 190,000 unit with the peek year being 1979 in which they shipped roughly 20K units.

The Spider was handed over to Pininfarina in 1982 with Fiat supplying mechanicals and was sold through Fiat dealer networks in 1983 as the Pininfarina 124 Spider Europa. These cars enjoyed a few engineering refinements. Production ceased in 1985 after the "Azzura" rolled off the line with rack and pinion steering and a map light in the glove box.

That same year, they did a limited run of the so-called Volumex which was the 2 liter spider engine with a supercharger on it, carbed, and a more rally look. They did not come to America and are still highly desirable in Europe, particularly Germany.

I have an 83 Pinin Spider which is my all-time favorite car that I will actually keep for a while, picture attached. Belvedere the bulldog is along for the ride.

QUOTE (Duane Estill @ Mar 13 2006, 09:53 AM)

Ken..... Is that an American Bulldog in your avatar?

Althea is an American Pit Bull Terrier. 12 years old, 60 pounds. If I remember correctly, AB's are larger.

The Alfa Spider Veloce, Graduate, Quadrafoglio, etc. actually had a longer production life than the Fiat Spider, being produced roughly until 1991 or 92. It's a very different car than the Fiat or Pinin Spiders. The Alfa was heavier and more of a cruiser than the Fiat, though they were surely small Italian roadsters, and very good looking cars and are even now more visible and more expensive than the Fiat Spider.

The Fiat/Pinin and Alfa Spider bodies were all made on side by side assembly lines at the Pininfarina factory in Torino. When Spider production ceased in 1985, Alfa Spiders continued to roll off. Pininfarina started making none other than the Cadillac Allante on the same line where the Fiat Spider was made.....what a lamer though by 91' the Allante was actually considered a world class car.

What's more...the Alfa Spider is back with us, picture attached. Fiat still makes a "Barchetta" which is more directly comparable to a Miata whereas the Alfa Spider qualifies more as an exotic.

Ah...shoulda guess it was an APBT. Cool looking dog. Belvedere is a registered American Bulldog, 5 years old and currently weighs in the 120 lb range. He's the ultimate layed back bulldog. I named him after the big white bulldog in the Looney Tunes cartoon with the Old Southern General that went..."Ohhh Bay-uhl-vu-deeAHHH come Heeahh BooAHH!" Both he and I are native Mississippians.....

Duane,

If I remember those cartoons right, the bulldog had such a deep chest, his rear feet didn't touch the ground as he walked. 120 pounds... wow. That's a big bulldog!

Althea was named after the Grateful Dead song... she's 12 years old but still in touch with her inner puppy. Loves all 2-legged visitors, hates cats and squirrels, can't be bothered to chase a rabbit.

Some interesting stuff here. You guys have covered a lot of ground. Regarding the Mini (1959) and Fiat 128 (1969) discussion, you've negected to mention the 1966 Olds Toronado as a pioneering fwd layout. At the time, no one thought it was feasible to use that configuration on such a large car. Without debating the desireability of such a behemoth, the Olds design went on to power Buicks and Caddys, including convertible models. It even found it's way into a now 'classic' motorhome, the GMC, which is reknowned for it's sleek shape and space utilization - primarily because it lacks a driveline to the rear.

Marc

Cool name too.

Belvedere's dad, named Bigfoot, was 155 lbs. an incredible dog that was as laid back as anything. It hated Rottweilers though and would eat them for breakfast.

To me, all the bully derivatives are dogs that have an excellent spirit and are 'eager to please.' Not as smart as border collies or labs usually, they do have excellent 'trust' instints with humans.

The Americans are very expensive, a grand on average for a pure bred from a known blood line. They also represent what the original bulldog probably looked like as they've been bred in the Southern US since the early 1800's. The main difference is probably size, they are generally larger these days due to selective breeding and health issues.

And another detour. I bought a new 850 coupe in 1967. Great little swing axle taildragger, could really rotate around the front tires for A/X fun.

Forgot how good it looked..

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 13 2006, 07:17 AM)

[QUOTE=DblDog,Mar 13 2006, 12:43 AM]

Love your avatar. I have one hanging up in my garage...

As for what they smooshed, I'd be upset if they crushed any classic car. That test was better suited for an escort or civic.

Personally, I do like the 914, even if it is just a Karmann-ghia...

V 1/9

QUOTE

Italian influence—mention the name Bertone and the mind conjures images of the Fiat X19 or an Alfa Romeo. Bertone has been associated with many automobile manufacturers over the last 40 years, although very few people are aware of the links between the Volvo Car Corporation and Bertone, initially in 1977 with the 262C, 245 Transfer, 264 TE and later in 1985 with the equally luxurious 780. The first prototype was constructed in 1974 using a secondhand 164 saloon which was restyled by Sergio Coggiola, the Italian designer, from drawings based on ideas from Pehr Gyllenhammer while in North America, and produced by Jan Wilsgaard's styling department. The Tre Kroner prototype was only distinguishable from the production model 164 by the more acute rake to the windscreen, lowered roof line and two-door body, the three crown code name was reproduced in emblem form on the roof side panel to the rear of the side windows. This car, in my opinion, was far more stylish than any of the later production variants.

I remember the chop-top Volvo. It was pretty stylish, considering that the time period was one in which Volvos were just, well, boxy.

Great thread, btw... I never really knew much about the X 1/9 other than it was an Italiam mid-engine sports car. I never knew that it was designed for crashworthiness.

QUOTE (Mac @ Mar 12 2006, 07:51 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 12 2006, 07:49 PM) As for the FIAT 128 being a "landmark car" due to it's drivetrain layout, I'll point out that the Mini got there 10 years earlier (in 1959), was produced in vastly larger numbers (5.5 million of the little buggers, in all variations), and was produced for 40 years (production finally ended in 2000) with no major changes along the way.  A transverse engine was unusual then, and fwd was also unusual. The Mini was the first to marry the two ideas.  The idea was STILL unusual in 1969, when the 128 came along. I'd like to point out in my own defense that I said the 128 was "one of" the first, not THE first If you really want to get technical about it, the Mini loses too, because there was the CORD in the '30s.... Peace, -Mac

The Saab 92 beat both the Mini and Fiat to the world of mass produced FWD. And they did it with aerodynamic flare with a drag coefiecient of 0.32! Not bad for a car developed in the mid 1940's. Lets not forget Citroën Traction Avant which was developed in 1935 and had a long history as a successful FWD car. Fiat was a late comer to the FWD party.



How many companies were doing this in 1947?

QUOTE (neo914-6 @ Mar 13 2006, 09:58 AM)

V 1/9 QUOTE Italian influence—mention the name Bertone and the mind conjures images of the Fiat X19 or an Alfa Romeo. Bertone has been associated with many automobile manufacturers over the last 40 years, although very few people are aware of the links between the Volvo Car Corporation and Bertone, initially in 1977 with the 262C, 245 Transfer, 264 TE and later in 1985 with the equally luxurious 780. The first prototype was constructed in 1974 using a secondhand 164 saloon which was restyled by Sergio Coggiola, the Italian designer, from drawings based on ideas from Pehr Gyllenhammer while in North America, and produced by Jan Wilsgaard's styling department. The Tre Kroner prototype was only distinguishable from the production model 164 by the more acute rake to the windscreen, lowered roof line and two-door body, the three crown code name was reproduced in emblem form on the roof side panel to the rear of the side windows. This car, in my opinion, was far more stylish than any of the later production variants.

worlds ugliest Volvo

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 13 2006, 07:14 AM)

The fwd revolution didn't really hit the US hard until the mid-1970s, when cars from Honda, Ford (the Fiesta), and VW became popular.  I remember very few FIATs from that era, and those I remember were 124 sedans and Spiders, not 128s.

I guess it just depends on what part of the country you were in and what you saw? I don't doubt your comments but just speaking personally I recall seeing far more 128s running around for every Mini I ever saw on the road where I was... and that was long before I became a Fiat guy

ANYHOW I'd be perfectly content to shake on the statement that they're ALL cool little cars!

QUOTE (KELTY360 @ Mar 13 2006, 08:16 AM)

You guys have covered a lot of ground

Just give us a thread and watch us ramble!

Look at all this stuff! What a wide ranging discussion indeed

QUOTE (Mac @ Mar 13 2006, 04:28 PM)

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 13 2006, 07:14 AM) The fwd revolution didn't really hit the US hard until the mid-1970s, when cars from Honda, Ford (the Fiesta), and VW became popular.  I remember very few FIATs from that era, and those I remember were 124 sedans and Spiders, not 128s. I guess it just depends on what part of the country you were in and what you saw? I don't doubt your comments but just speaking personally I recall seeing far more 128s running around for every Mini I ever saw on the road where I was... and that was long before I became a Fiat guy ANYHOW I'd be perfectly content to shake on the statement that they're ALL cool little cars!

They are all cool cars.

I never said the Mini was more popular in the US than the 128. I myself didn't see a Mini in the US until the late 1980s. What I said was the 128 didn't start the fwd revolution in the US.

The Mini didn't start the fwd revolution anywhere, not even in Europe. It was years before another manufacturer made the canonical two-or-three-box transverse fwd car that is pretty much the primary mold for production cars today. I'm sure it was a strong influence, but it really didn't trigger the flood. The 128 may have been the second car in this mold, and it was the first in a pretty rapid flood of similar cars from Ford (Europe), Honda, and VW.

QUOTE (Mac @ Mar 12 2006, 07:33 PM)

It is also true the X is even more go-kart-like than the 914 and takes corners truly like a slot car, almost unbelievably so. Be careful if you get in one that has worn out struts or tires though, or you will very quickly be facing the direction you just came from!

Lets take a look at go kart specs. I took the 914 model that was closest to the X19 in terms of power and weight.

1972 X19
Length :158.5 inches
Width: 61.8 inches
F/R Track 52.5/52.9
Wheelbase 86.7
Wieght 2085 lbs
brakes 8.9 inch discs
75 hp / 67 ft lbs of torque

1970 914-4 1.7
Length :156.9 inches
Width: 65 inches
F/R Track 52.8/54.5
Wheelbase 96.5
Wieght 1980 lbs
brakes 11 inch discs
81 HP /97 ft lbs of torque

How is a longer heavier car more like a go kart? Granted the shorter wheelbase will make the Fiat a little less stable at speed, but from specs the cars are almost identical with weight advantage on Porsches side. If one was to keep skinny tires on the 914 it would offer similar thrills to the X19. I used to bomb around mountain roads with hard 165/15 tires back in the late Seventies. The 914 would find itself going the wrong direction often back then.

I never realized what silly small brakes the Fiats had. What do you do to stop those things?

Thanks for the info on the X1/9; I've always admired the fiat sports cars . . . guy up the street had a 68 850 with the glass-covered lights, 124s were pretty common at the "zoo" in 71 and 72 . . . .

There's a 1/9 a couple of miles away . . . it's being used as an advert for an "artist."

Well for you Italian geeks, you're new here so you probably haven't seen these yet and I'm sure you'll be more a ppreciative of them than most of the guys here.This is my job, restoring european (mostly italian) cars these are some we have going on right now. This Simca was finished and shipped to Germany last spring

Maserati Ghibli is 5 years in the making and is now close to being done

Fiat Abarth that took 3 in class and 10 overall at Sebring in 65 also held a land speed record for a while. Currently stripped and on a dolly being seam sealed

2000 Mostra clone I finished just befroe Christmas. Owner is currently assembling

Customers Bora

One of 3 Alfa GTA's lined up to be done. This one is now ready for paint as soon as the weather warms up a little and stabilizes.

QUOTE

How is a longer heavier car more like a go kart?

Go find one with good struts, good tires, have yourself a ride and you tell me

I wasn't trying to make a technical judgment with that comment necessarily (can "more go-kart-like" even be quantified in a technical manner? ) It was just my personal opinion based on the various X1/9s and 914s that I've driven and/or ridden in over the years.

They're both great cars, just the seat of my pants says to me the Xs usually feel tighter, more responsive (eg: go-kart-like) in corners. I don't think an extra inch and a half (or whatever which could have been the protruding bumpers most of us ditch anyway) make a big "length" disadvantage, and yes it's a hundred pounds heavier (til the bumpers come off!), maybe the difference is weight distribution? Suspension layout? Steering? Gearing? The sound of the engine pushing 9 grand? An extra bug in my teeth? I don't know. I admit it's subjective

PS, just like you guys, most of us tend not to stay with the bicycle tires...

I am sure a really well set up 914 and a really well set up X1/9 would probably be closely matched enough that it would come down to just which you prefer.

Forgot the most important pic the engine of the Sebring car 1 liter of screaming fury

HOLY COW SCOTTY

QUOTE (Mac @ Mar 13 2006, 06:07 PM)

HOLY COW SCOTTY

Thanks but it's not as glamorous as it may seem.... ...trust me. Most of you guys do this stuff for fun and love it but when you do it for a living it loses the enjoyment I completely removed myself a few years back when my business failed and went back to landscaping. Had a 914 customer that RUINED these cars for me. I'm glad to be back into it again but sometimes I still

...gotta ask...how many of you have owned a Cinque Cento?

Are you talking about the old school Fiat 500/600s or the more recent Cinq/Seicento?

If you mean the old ones they are around. If you mean the new ones probably no one on our side of the pond has one, they don't sell them in North America

Now, what I would REALLY enjoy seeing would be for Fiat to go ahead and take the Trepiuno concept car to production! That's a cool little bugger right there (if you're into the whole retro thing). Pretty much a modernized Fiat 500, stylistically anyway, in much the same fashion as the new Mini

QUOTE (DblDog @ Mar 13 2006, 07:24 PM)

...gotta ask...how many of you have owned a Cinque Cento?

My neice's sons have one in their play room. It's complete and operable (if the battery were installed). They're 4 and 2 years old and it's their favorite toy - duh. So cool.
Wish I had a pic.

Marc

Never owned a 500, but I drove a '64 once. Neat car, but only useful if you can reasonably get there via surface roads.

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Mar 13 2006, 05:24 PM)

QUOTE (Mac @ Mar 12 2006, 07:33 PM) It is also true the X is even more go-kart-like than the 914 and takes corners truly like a slot car, almost unbelievably so. Be careful if you get in one that has worn out struts or tires though, or you will very quickly be facing the direction you just came from! Lets take a look at go kart specs. I took the 914 model that was closest to the X19 in terms of power and weight. 1972 X19 Length :158.5 inches Width: 61.8 inches F/R Track 52.5/52.9 Wheelbase 86.7 Wieght 2085 lbs brakes 8.9 inch discs 75 hp / 67 ft lbs of torque 1970 914-4 1.7 Length :156.9 inches Width: 65 inches F/R Track 52.8/54.5 Wheelbase 96.5 Wieght 1980 lbs brakes 11 inch discs 81 HP /97 ft lbs of torque How is a longer heavier car more like a go kart? Granted the shorter wheelbase will make the Fiat a little less stable at speed, but from specs the cars are almost identical with weight advantage on Porsches side. If one was to keep skinny tires on the 914 it would offer similar thrills to the X19. I used to bomb around mountain roads with hard 165/15 tires back in the late Seventies. The 914 would find itself going the wrong direction often back then. I never realized what silly small brakes the Fiats had. What do you do to stop those things?

I recall that the X1/9 was only beat by a another famous italian car (in a motor trend spec sheet) in the 70 to 0 braking.... 247 feet with 165 -13's! no less, go figure...

Point is, with such small rotors, I'll bet the brakes fade a lot easier on an X1/9 than they do on a 914.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 13 2006, 08:41 PM)

Point is, with such small rotors, I'll bet the brakes fade a lot easier on an X1/9 than they do on a 914.

I'll buy that logic..after all it wasn't "tested"

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 13 2006, 08:41 PM)

Point is, with such small rotors, I'll bet the brakes fade a lot easier on an X1/9 than they do on a 914.

We'd prefer to think of it as "less rotating mass than you guys" kind of like lightened flywheels, right??

Seriously though, I've never experienced any trouble stopping on a dime during any sort of 'spirited' street carving but then again I'm not a track racer either.

I do know that more than the brakes themselves one of the bigger issues with aging Xs is the lines. It's pretty common on Xs that have old lines to find the rubber sections degrading such that they tend to swell, restricting flow some, and may flex if you really mash the pedal, thus reducing overall braking effectiveness and giving the pedal a squishy feel it would not normally have. That's not hard to fix though, just replace the ancient lines!

There are a number of tricks/mods/swaps/upgrades out there for the X brakes though that a lot of folks use. One of the simpler 'freebie' mods is to slightly enlarge the stock holes in some banjo bolt fittings, which many say produces a small but noticable improvement in response. For swapouts there are a lot of other Fiat/Lancia cars with beefier brake systems that can be fitted without too much trouble, and then there's the aftermarket of course...

Peace, -Mac

Since this thread is already all over the road, I may as well toss this on the heap too...

I couldn't help but notice one more small commonality between our groups:

At the top of your forum page...



Meanwhile this has been floating around X websites for years...



...it's ended up on t-shirts, coffee mugs, decals, wall clocks...

I figured we had similar tastes in '4-wheeled art', but LINE art even? Great minds really do think alike apparently

Peace, -Mac

Wait till Jeroen sees this!

I keed, I keed.

Flippin awesome.




Definately worthy of being arch-rivals.

Now lets talk tech. Gear ratios and hp. Torque curves. And we'll need a 914 guy who will be willing to put together an "anti-x/19" 914.

Who's Jeroen?

By the way, since we're here...

I don't know a great deal about 914s (just some basics, probably about as much as the average 'teener' knows about Xs)... historically speaking that is. Anyone willing to post a reply here for us Xheads with a brief development/production rundown on the 914? Similar in scope to what we've posted on the X?

I for one would be curious to hear the 914's backstory....

Peace, -Mac

Wow. Let me look it up in the bible first. (That's Excellence Was Expected- the porsche bible.)

It was designed by some small firm who was trying to get automakers to use their new fiberglass bodyworking systems. Porsche decided that the fiberglass (or plastic or whatever it was) wasn't feasible at the time, but they did like the design. They purchased the design with no promise to manufacture it with the new bodyworking techniques.

Someone else can take it from there while I look for my copy of the bible, to get the name of the firm.

QUOTE

Definately worthy of being arch-rivals.

I was thinking more like allies against the rest of the automotive world, but nothing wrong with a friendly rivalry

QUOTE

And we'll need a 914 guy who will be willing to put together an "anti-x/19" 914.

I believe we may already have our "anti-914" X1/9 - or at least one of them!...

Built by a member of the X club of Denmark, it races in the same class as Ferrari F40 if that tells you anything

OOOHHH!!!!

I need to find my pictures of Dave Harris' SP 914.

He's ten seconds faster than a local F40 factory-spec racer.

jeroen is a forefather of this site. Him, Andy, and Brad (IIRC) started this...

Prototype pics

Buyers guide

sabout all I can say right now..

2 914's with the 908 engine..

11 916's flares, big tires, strong 6..

3300 914 6's 2.0 production stopped in 72, in 73 they introduced the 2.0 4 cylander,

115k 914 4's were made..

Details here

Are there any X/19 guys in Colorado?

Thats a quick car...

sorry.. cant look for any more right now..

QUOTE

Are there any X/19 guys in Colorado?

YES, there are some that we know of (and probably a few we don't too)

Nice edit mac

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 15 2006, 12:38 AM)

Nice edit mac  ;)

Which one? If youze guys can do it so can we