I am hoping to build a good, solid, higher performance Type 4 which will be used as a daily driver, touring car and perhaps an occasional AX. I have some questions.
1. Are all type 4 engine cases identical? If so, why are "GA" cases preferable?
2. What practical difference is there between a 78.4 stroke crank and an 80mm crank--since the 80mm seems to be more prevalent and a little less expensive?
3. Which is the most preferable bore--94mm, 96mm or 103/4mm?
4. Is there any practical difference between standard 2.0 sized crank journals and chevy sized?
5. Can 1.8 heads be "massaged" enough for decent performance?
6. Pure speculation--What kind of HP might I expect out of an engine with: 80mm stroke, 96mm bore, a moderate cam, re-worked 1.8 heads (8.5 or 9:1CR) and carbs?
Thanks for any answers you can give
TomL
Full Version: Type 4 Engine build basics
What kind of budget do you have set aside? That will dictate how things progress and what kind of horsepower you can expect.
Someone needs a RAT engine kit.
Guess work= Non existant.
Guess work= Non existant.
All type 4 cases are basically the same:
Early cases don't have the ledge inside for the windage tray
Bus and 411 cases have a different oil filler setup and oil dipstick
GA cases have the oil temp sender inthe bottom plus is milled out so the sender fits prefectly
The best way to get to a high hp daily driver engine is buy a Raby kit as its great setup combo-either a 2056cc or 2270cc.
78.4 or 80mm stroke cranks with the 2.0l rods isn't the best setup as the bearings are smallish and no modern type bearings are made for it.
96mm steel cylinders are fine, not so with 103mm steel as they warp fast so NIkkies are the hot ticket if you want to go big.
1.8L heads from HAM/Raby are made to be as nice as the 2.0L 914 ones.
Wild guess - hmm, 130-140hp without proper setup combo and guess tossing parts together.
Early cases don't have the ledge inside for the windage tray
Bus and 411 cases have a different oil filler setup and oil dipstick
GA cases have the oil temp sender inthe bottom plus is milled out so the sender fits prefectly
The best way to get to a high hp daily driver engine is buy a Raby kit as its great setup combo-either a 2056cc or 2270cc.
78.4 or 80mm stroke cranks with the 2.0l rods isn't the best setup as the bearings are smallish and no modern type bearings are made for it.
96mm steel cylinders are fine, not so with 103mm steel as they warp fast so NIkkies are the hot ticket if you want to go big.
1.8L heads from HAM/Raby are made to be as nice as the 2.0L 914 ones.
Wild guess - hmm, 130-140hp without proper setup combo and guess tossing parts together.
Save yourself a lot brain damage. Get a 2056 kit from Jake and be done with it. DO NOT GO CHEAP! You will pay for it in the end. BTDT
Bill Shaffer
Bill Shaffer
Bill speaks from experience...
The GA case is not magical.. All TIV cases are virtually the same, and can have parts swapped and interchanged from 1.7-2.0. I actually prefer the 1.7 cases for reasons that most people would not understand. My 3 liter is built on a 1.7 case-
Thats all according to how easy you want the engine to be assembled. I prefer the 78.4mm crank with my TI rod journal mods coupled to a 5.4" Type 1 rod with standard clearancing. This is easy to assemble and offers an excellent rod ratio with ease of assembly. My parts make this a DROP IN affair with only minimal hand clearancing. The 78.4 crank with its 2.165" TI rod journal is the strongest you'll find.
If you go above 96mm Nickies cylinders are an absolute requirement unless you have a desire to toss your reliability and longevity away. In most cases cast iron cylinders in the TIV are toast at 10K miles, generally warped and tapered. Most engines won't see 5000 miles with them without cylinder/head leakage. Stay away from big bores, especially if you don't have the 2K + it'll take to create a set of heads to feed the HUGE bore.
I worked for 7 years non stop to make TIV combos that work efficiently alkl while using the 96mm bore and it's longevity and reliability benefits. Wise men take advantage of this-
>>Yep, both in diameter and width and more importantly bearing composition. The stock 2.0 journal has a bi-metal composition and is horrible for performance applications the stock rod length is also inadequate for any strokes over 74mm unless they are low revving engines (primarily for Bus applications) The stock rods and their journals should be avoided at all costs for stroker engines-
>Yep, but a plug relocation is good for 10% more power alone...
My 2316cc kit makes a soild 180HP and 185 TQ with the "New Generation" heads employed (they are now a standard on all kits larger than 2056cc) This is up from 170 HP with the 7440 heads that we superceded. The 2316 kit has all the parts clearanced, balanced and indexed and even prepped for assembly if you opt the service. The 2316 is one of my easiest kits to assemble, 3 weeks ago one customer assembled one in a weekend and fired it up, drove the car the following Monday- He started Friday @ 4 Pm!
The nice thing about my kit is the fact that I can dictate everything right down to jet sizes and ignition timing, simply because its an engineered, heavily developed engine that I have dynoed dozens of.
It's impossible to buy the components to assemble a like engine individually for a lower price, then you'll still need to clearance and balance the parts and won't get any support because it took 10+ suppliers to get you the parts to complete the project.
Its all about compatible parts... I can make it fall together as easy as a correctly built stock engine. That 180 HP number is not a guess.
| QUOTE |
| 1. Are all type 4 engine cases identical? If so, why are "GA" cases preferable? |
The GA case is not magical.. All TIV cases are virtually the same, and can have parts swapped and interchanged from 1.7-2.0. I actually prefer the 1.7 cases for reasons that most people would not understand. My 3 liter is built on a 1.7 case-
| QUOTE |
| 2. What practical difference is there between a 78.4 stroke crank and an 80mm crank--since the 80mm seems to be more prevalent and a little less expensive? |
Thats all according to how easy you want the engine to be assembled. I prefer the 78.4mm crank with my TI rod journal mods coupled to a 5.4" Type 1 rod with standard clearancing. This is easy to assemble and offers an excellent rod ratio with ease of assembly. My parts make this a DROP IN affair with only minimal hand clearancing. The 78.4 crank with its 2.165" TI rod journal is the strongest you'll find.
| QUOTE |
| 3. Which is the most preferable bore--94mm, 96mm or 103/4mm? |
If you go above 96mm Nickies cylinders are an absolute requirement unless you have a desire to toss your reliability and longevity away. In most cases cast iron cylinders in the TIV are toast at 10K miles, generally warped and tapered. Most engines won't see 5000 miles with them without cylinder/head leakage. Stay away from big bores, especially if you don't have the 2K + it'll take to create a set of heads to feed the HUGE bore.
I worked for 7 years non stop to make TIV combos that work efficiently alkl while using the 96mm bore and it's longevity and reliability benefits. Wise men take advantage of this-
| QUOTE |
| 4. Is there any practical difference between standard 2.0 sized crank journals and chevy sized? |
>>Yep, both in diameter and width and more importantly bearing composition. The stock 2.0 journal has a bi-metal composition and is horrible for performance applications the stock rod length is also inadequate for any strokes over 74mm unless they are low revving engines (primarily for Bus applications) The stock rods and their journals should be avoided at all costs for stroker engines-
| QUOTE |
| 5. Can 1.8 heads be "massaged" enough for decent performance? |
>Yep, but a plug relocation is good for 10% more power alone...
| QUOTE |
| 6. Pure speculation--What kind of HP might I expect out of an engine with: 80mm stroke, 96mm bore, a moderate cam, re-worked 1.8 heads (8.5 or 9:1CR) and carbs? |
My 2316cc kit makes a soild 180HP and 185 TQ with the "New Generation" heads employed (they are now a standard on all kits larger than 2056cc) This is up from 170 HP with the 7440 heads that we superceded. The 2316 kit has all the parts clearanced, balanced and indexed and even prepped for assembly if you opt the service. The 2316 is one of my easiest kits to assemble, 3 weeks ago one customer assembled one in a weekend and fired it up, drove the car the following Monday- He started Friday @ 4 Pm!
The nice thing about my kit is the fact that I can dictate everything right down to jet sizes and ignition timing, simply because its an engineered, heavily developed engine that I have dynoed dozens of.
It's impossible to buy the components to assemble a like engine individually for a lower price, then you'll still need to clearance and balance the parts and won't get any support because it took 10+ suppliers to get you the parts to complete the project.
Its all about compatible parts... I can make it fall together as easy as a correctly built stock engine. That 180 HP number is not a guess.
I am hoping to get out with a parts cost of $3500 (+ or -). I am I in the ball park?
TomL
TomL
Not without cutting corners, not for a stroker engine.
You could build a 130 HP 2056 kit for that, but thats about it with a quality result and no shortcuts.
You could build a 130 HP 2056 kit for that, but thats about it with a quality result and no shortcuts.
"See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050
If you are interested in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit.
NOTICE: After receiving shipment of your engine kit packages, please inventory each package using the invoice included in the owner's...
Our price: $3,110.08"
From the Type4store (Jake Raby)
Forget 80mm stroker cranks and all that......or for alittle more.
See details 2270 Porsche 914 Performance Engine Kit #40066
Forget that six cylinder conversion for your 914! Keep that car lighter by upgrading your original 4 cylinder engine to one of our MassIVe 2270cc packages with an engine kit from The Type 4 Store. With this engine installed in your 914, you'll make the six cylinder guys wonder how you passed them...
Our price: $4,604.13
maybe, for a 2056. if you have a good set of carbs (correct venturi size). if you have a proper set of heads. if you have a good set of 94mm cyls ready to be opened up. if you already have a good ignition. you may or may not need a new flywheel(+$). you may or may not need a new clutch package(+$$$). $4400 to $5k is probably closer, dependant on what serviceable items you may have. then, when you are doing your online order, you opt for a few upgrades because it's only "a few dollars more", and the budget is blown to hell. been there, doing that. 
k
k
$5k engine....
do this..... i have.
added some carbs which mark got from jake, sent some ignition stuff and other sundry bits and all done.
only brain damage is waiting and that is easy.....
well.... maybe..
cheers,
do this..... i have.
added some carbs which mark got from jake, sent some ignition stuff and other sundry bits and all done.
only brain damage is waiting and that is easy.....
well.... maybe..cheers,
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Mar 31 2006, 10:02 AM) |
| "See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050 If you are interested in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit. NOTICE: After receiving shipment of your engine kit packages, please inventory each package using the invoice included in the owner's... Our price: $3,110.08" From the Type4store (Jake Raby) Forget 80mm stroker cranks and all that......or for alittle more. See details 2270 Porsche 914 Performance Engine Kit #40066 Forget that six cylinder conversion for your 914! Keep that car lighter by upgrading your original 4 cylinder engine to one of our MassIVe 2270cc packages with an engine kit from The Type 4 Store. With this engine installed in your 914, you'll make the six cylinder guys wonder how you passed them... Our price: $4,604.13 |
As of today engine kit sales are suspended until May 12, 2006.
The old prices and power figures are no longer correct, so we have ceased sales until we can make the needed corrections due to the huge impacts that the "New Generation" heads have had on the kits both in power and in price. We are also making camshaft changes to the kits to be more compatible with the 'New Generation" heads. All test work is done for their implementation and the results are as much as 20HP and 15 lb/ft of torque over the previous combinations!
Prices of the kits are not changing very much at all, but it is enough to screw us up if we kept trying to fill orders before all the changes are made. It is hard enough trying to make all these changes and build the catalog, so if you wanna kit wait till May!
The entire month of April is about change here, watch some prices drop on a few things and other things be released- its all coming together just in time for the Hot Vws article.
with that, I'm outta here guys... I'll see ya the middle of next month.
I havent died, but you'll think I have.. while some of you may wish that i have, you're not that lucky!
| QUOTE (TomL @ Mar 30 2006, 03:15 PM) |
| 2. What practical difference is there between a 78.4 stroke crank and an 80mm crank--since the 80mm seems to be more prevalent and a little less expensive? |
That's one point I haven't seen addressed...
From what I can tell by reading around on the forums, the 78.4mm crank, if set up with the right rods, will not hit the camshaft anywhere on its travel. The 80mm crank will, unless you start to take "extreme measures"... Those including downsizing the crank journals and therefore the rods, and going with a reduced base-circle cam. The latter introduces a few issues of its own...
If you want the fun of doing it all yourself, and the risk of blowing it sky-high, get the parts and build it! If you want to take all the guesswork out, then wait for Jake's store to re-open.
--DD
Thanks to everybody who has taken your time to respond to my inquiry. Your input is very helpful to me. I am in the research/information-gathering stage. I figure the better informed I am the better decision I can make about how I want to spend my money and what kind of risk I am willing to take (relying on my own skills or someone elses).
Tom
Tom
Dave
My 78.4mm DPR crank with type 1 journals needs some clearancing. The webbing at the top of the case has to be clearanced. The case at the top needed to be thinned about a mm and the cam is a reduced base circle. I would have to look up the diameter. The clearance between the crank and cam is approximately 1.5 mm. at it's closest so, I suspect that could be narrowed a bit.
Interestingly, I had 2 cam failures with ceramic lifters (I'm the 1 and only and I want to be in Ripley's). The reason for that was that the ramp rates for that cam grind on a reduced base circle were excessive. We kept the same base circle, took out 0.016" of lift at the intake valve and 0.004" on the exhaust and added 4 degrees of duration. Lift is now just under 1/2". All is now well and I can't tell any difference for sure. I think I can feel the cam come in around 3000 where the other cam was more seemless but who knows. It works now and I'm happy.
At any rate there are limitations with added stroke.
Dave
My 78.4mm DPR crank with type 1 journals needs some clearancing. The webbing at the top of the case has to be clearanced. The case at the top needed to be thinned about a mm and the cam is a reduced base circle. I would have to look up the diameter. The clearance between the crank and cam is approximately 1.5 mm. at it's closest so, I suspect that could be narrowed a bit.
Interestingly, I had 2 cam failures with ceramic lifters (I'm the 1 and only and I want to be in Ripley's). The reason for that was that the ramp rates for that cam grind on a reduced base circle were excessive. We kept the same base circle, took out 0.016" of lift at the intake valve and 0.004" on the exhaust and added 4 degrees of duration. Lift is now just under 1/2". All is now well and I can't tell any difference for sure. I think I can feel the cam come in around 3000 where the other cam was more seemless but who knows. It works now and I'm happy.
At any rate there are limitations with added stroke.
Dave
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