I'm moving the oil cooler on the front of my 914-6 conversion and started a dangerous train of thought that is likely to keep my car on jack stands for months longer and empty my wallet (even emptier than it already is).

Rather than cut a notch in my existing steel bumper and valance I thought, why not buy a fiberglass 916 bumper (or a 914GT bumper and valence). That would save a few pounds.

While I'm at it, I could also get some fiberglass flares, fiberglass front and rear deck lids, and a fiberglass rear bumper.

I hope you folks can help me decide how far to go by answering a few questions:

1. How much weight is saved by replacing the steel bumpers with fiberglass?

2. If I go for flares, do you recommend 7 front/9 rear or 9 front/11 rear?

3. How much more weight can be saved by going to fiberglass deck lids, etc?

4. I assume that I give up all of the protection of the steel bumpers if I go FG. Right?

For reference, I'm buildling a 3.2L short stroke engine for this car with twin-plug heads, 9.5:1 compression, and Megasquirt fuel injection. It should be over 250hp.

QUOTE (billd @ Apr 6 2006, 05:57 PM)

While I'm at it....

The first signs of DWD! It maybe too late already!!

QUOTE (billd @ Apr 7 2006, 12:57 AM)

2. If I go for flares, do you recommend 7 front/9 rear or 9 front/11 rear?

only go 9/11 if you have really wide wheels (9" front and 11" rear)
7/9 is the regular width for GT flares

QUOTE

4.  I assume that I give up all of the protection of the steel bumpers if I go FG.  Right?

yup...

Frankly, you'd have to be half nuts.......that don't leave out many here.....to spend the money to hang a bunch of glass on anything but a race car. It's not only the money, but the time & effort to get the FG painted to look decent......and as Jeroen pointed out, the first time some knuckle head backs into your bumper all that goes down the tubes. Racer or part time racer, I can see it........tho it can jack you into a class with monsters.
It's kinda fun there, tho.

Unless Bill is changing courses the car he is working on is already a track car.
I believe he is building a AX/TT car...So I think that glass is completely appropriate.
Bill, if you are going to concentrate on AX...I would build the best, lightest car and keep it as narrow as possible...7/9s
If you are planning to also go the the track with that nice motor, I would opt for the 9/11s with the absolute biggest tires and wheels you can stuff under those flares.

I personally would also opt for the 914-6 GT front bumper valence set up. More of a classsic look. IMHO I have never cared for the 916 look.

So, what kind of weight savings are there to gain with the replacing of the bumpers and deck lids?

On my '72, the front and rear bumpers with the rubber tops weigh in at about 17.5 lbs each. IIRC, the fg units weigh in at about 5 lbs, That's about 12.5 lbs off each end. The front and rear deck lids weigh about 30.5 lbs each. The fg units should be about 10 lbs each. That's another 20 lbs off each end. Total weight savings about 65 lbs. I'm going to try and do my own deck lids. Should be fun getting them to be as lite as possible

Bill

QUOTE (billd @ Apr 6 2006, 04:57 PM)

1.  How much weight is saved by replacing the steel bumpers with fiberglass? 3.  How much more weight can be saved by going to fiberglass deck lids, etc?

I think you would find the weight savings somewhat disappointing..
and I don't know what your own personal $/lb ratio is... but this train of thought will cost significant dollars for limited lbs...

I'm going to venture a guess
-front bumper savings 11lbs
-rear bumper another 11lbs
-front hood 35lbs
rear hood another 30lbs

so I'm guessing a weight savings of approximately 87lbs.
but then you will offset that with heavier running gear...

now look at what that 87lbs is costing.
front bumper 175
rear bumper 175
front hood 400
rear hood 400

so about $1150
remember fiberglass is a pain to fit and finish..
so if you want to include paint work you should add about 2500 to that figure.

you have to figure out your own acceptable dollar/lb ratio.
without the cost of running gear and without factoring its extra weight..
your at around $41.95/lb.

thats a pretty high ratio
may or may not be within your own personal comfort zone.
it would have to be a race car and not a street car for me to swallow that.

I'm all for light weight... but it doesn't make sense for a street car.
on the other hand if you really are building a race car then ditch the stereo, heat, side windows, upholstery, head lights and go for it!

brant

QUOTE (brant @ Apr 6 2006, 07:37 PM)

QUOTE (billd @ Apr 6 2006, 04:57 PM) 1.  How much weight is saved by replacing the steel bumpers with fiberglass? 3.  How much more weight can be saved by going to fiberglass deck lids, etc? I think you would find the weight savings somewhat disappointing.. and I don't know what your own personal $/lb ratio is... but this train of thought will cost significant dollars for limited lbs... I'm going to venture a guess -front bumper savings 11lbs -rear bumper another 11lbs -front hood 35lbs rear hood another 30lbs so I'm guessing a weight savings of approximately 87lbs. but then you will offset that with heavier running gear... now look at what that 87lbs is costing. front bumper 175 rear bumper 175 front hood 400 rear hood 400 so about $1150 remember fiberglass is a pain to fit and finish.. so if you want to include paint work you should add about 2500 to that figure. you have to figure out your own acceptable dollar/lb ratio. without the cost of running gear and without factoring its extra weight.. your at around $41.95/lb. thats a pretty high ratio may or may not be within your own personal comfort zone. it would have to be a race car and not a street car for me to swallow that. I'm all for light weight... but it doesn't make sense for a street car. on the other hand if you really are building a race car then ditch the stereo, heat, side windows, upholstery, head lights and go for it! brant

Every little bit helps and it can be done for half the price quoted.

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 6 2006, 07:11 PM)

Bill, if you are going to concentrate on AX...I would build the best, lightest car and keep it as narrow as possible...7/9s If you are planning to also go the the track with that nice motor, I would opt for the 9/11s with the absolute biggest tires and wheels you can stuff under those flares.

For now I'm focusing on AX. The goal is to beat the blue smurfmobile. However at some point I may start time trialing again - with this car. I only want to do the flares once. I'm leaning toward 7s/9s. Do you think wider tires are that much of an advantage on the track?

I may settle for a "primer" paint job for the short term to keep costs down.

Sounds good Bill.

Since your car is white anyway...try to find FG parts in white gelcoat...it will match pretty well that way...
On my 914-6 I had a GT racing RSR front airdam in White gelcoat and the car was white...match was almost dead on...never did paint it.
If the bumpers are in black gelcoat and the flares, and hoods are in White it would look pretty nice. Do a rivet job on the flares like Randal has...looks pretty nice with black fender welting.

With AX as your main emphasis I would stay with the 7/9s plus they look more original than the 9/11s.
You can still get some pretty serious rubber under the flares if you get the right back spacing....use some Boxster wheels with spacers. I am sure you have some of those laying around

You are going to have to get pretty light to get close to Andrew B.

Even with the HP advantage. sounds like a fun project. Looks like you had a better day at the Zone AX...much better in the standings with the 4 banger.
Did you get bigger front torsions, or was it bigger rear springs?

The biggest weight loss on mine was doors.....and cheep.
The stock 74 doors were 64 lbs ea. the early gutted replacements are 20 lbs ea.....via a bathroom scale.
I'm still eyeballin' my windshield.......the end is near.

If you are going after that blue rollerskate, you're going to have to be ruthless in the pursuit of lightness......and grip.
It's a noble cause tho

QUOTE (billd @ Apr 6 2006, 09:17 PM)

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 6 2006, 07:11 PM) Bill, if you are going to concentrate on AX...I would build the best, lightest car and keep it as narrow as possible...7/9s If you are planning to also go the the track with that nice motor, I would opt for the 9/11s with the absolute biggest tires and wheels you can stuff under those flares. For now I'm focusing on AX. The goal is to beat the blue smurfmobile. However at some point I may start time trialing again - with this car. I only want to do the flares once. I'm leaning toward 7s/9s. Do you think wider tires are that much of an advantage on the track? I may settle for a "primer" paint job for the short term to keep costs down.

Which blue smurfmobile? Mine or the real fast one that Andrew B drives?

What's wrong with Smurfmobiles?

To keep costs down, all of my fiberglass bumpers and hoods have been swap meet 'buys'. Took a little refinishing time to primer & spot putty, but the results are fine.

Pic above is right after I 'found' a used hood and couldn't wait to paint it before I put it on...

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Apr 7 2006, 06:27 AM)

Which blue smurfmobile? Mine or the real fast one that Andrew B drives?

Heh....you ain't a target yet...or even a shooter
When's your first AX in the new car?

I've got to start proof reading better...
I should have put 67lbs total.. (because of adding back the glass f/r lids)

I absolutely agree that every bit helps
and I perfectly understand that 67 lbs is A LOT
I also understand that you don't have to repaint the car and that paint cost doesn't have to factor into the equation.

still I think my point remainst the same that for over a grand you are going to shed what seems like not a whole lot of weight.

you can easily find 67lbs in the car elsewhere for free (just unbolt stuff) I agree with JP that the doors and door glass are the motherload of cheap weight. Next pull all of the heating and ventilation and headlights.....

1000 bucks is beaucoup money.
and would buy a fresh set of sticky hoosiers that will make up more time than 67lbs will.

brant

QUOTE (brant @ Apr 7 2006, 04:48 PM)

I've got to start proof reading better... I should have put 67lbs total.. (because of adding back the glass f/r lids) I absolutely agree that every bit helps and I perfectly understand that 67 lbs is A LOT I also understand that you don't have to repaint the car and that paint cost doesn't have to factor into the equation. still I think my point remainst the same that for over a grand you are going to shed what seems like not a whole lot of weight. you can easily find 67lbs in the car elsewhere for free (just unbolt stuff) I agree with JP that the doors and door glass are the motherload of cheap weight. Next pull all of the heating and ventilation and headlights..... 1000 bucks is beaucoup money. and would buy a fresh set of sticky hoosiers that will make up more time than 67lbs will. brant

But if this is going to be an an AX car there is plenty of cheap new and used fiberglass. Might as well get as much weigh savings as possible. Weight is biggest enemy of an AX car. Why not get rid of as much as you can?It must be the old competitive cyclist in me.

I ran super ugly last year with $2.99 rattle can painted flat black hoods and bumpers. But the car did move faster.

Well, if you wanna get serious, I took well over 200 lbs off my car last year. Tain't street legal no more, but if you're serious.....well, Andrew & Steve are.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Apr 7 2006, 07:11 PM)

Well, if you wanna get serious, I took well over 200 lbs off my car last year. Tain't street legal no more, but if you're serious.....well, Andrew & Steve are.

Naw ...if youre serious get your butt in a go kart. That will make you a hell of a lot faster than losing 200 lbs.

John's old Patrick Motorsports Car had fiberglass decklids and bumpers along with a high performance engine. I realize that the original intention for that car was racing, but it was used on the street and I think it still had the creature comforts, heater, etc.

Did it benifit from the lightened parts? Would it's performance be about the same with the stock items?

Grant,

where are you seeing all of this cheap new and used fiberglass?

when I see a used fiberglass lid it is usually gone in the same day that it is listed....

I'm assuming you bought your lids used...?
how many other used lids have you seen in the year that have become available since you bought yours?

I agree..
weight is a good thing to shed
now hit the scales young man!
I want to hear what your car weighs!!!!

I seriously think I shed more than 500lbs over stock, and then put 150 of it back into the car as motor weight and another 100lbs back as rollcage and bracing.

The fun thing is that all of my body panels (not bumpers) are still metal. (including my metal lids!)

I have a secret ambition to build a 2nd car as a -4cylinder metal vintage racer and get it under 1700 without fiberglass..... Possible....not easy but possible....

brant

Cheapest way to lighten your car is for the driver to go on a diet.
Save money on food and you don't have to spend it on FG pieces.
Drop 30-50 pds. and might even help your health

I like Brants idea....

That is what I have decided to do with my car for now.

And if that doesn't work then go for the full 914R treatment.

Going to a Six motor adds how much weight. 100, 150, 200lbs?

Again the Smurfmobile has absolutely nothing that is not meant to go, stop or turn. Everything else is gone. Most metal replaced with FG.
Has anyone checked this year to see if AndrewB is running Nitrous?

He has at least once before.

-6 motor is 150lbs...
plus often the oil capacity is increased and thus a tiny bit more
(we are now at 19qts of oil, which has to be a few extra pounds)

brant

you are right.

My oil cooler and fan is pretty heavy, not to mention the lines and extra oil..

We take weight off just to add it back on, to make the car safer and or increase longevity.
a terrible cycle.

QUOTE (brant @ Apr 7 2006, 08:59 PM)

Grant, where are you seeing all of this cheap new and used fiberglass? when I see a used fiberglass lid it is usually gone in the same day that it is listed.... I'm assuming you bought your lids used...? how many other used lids have you seen in the year that have become available since you bought yours? I agree.. weight is a good thing to shed now hit the scales young man! I want to hear what your car weighs!!!! I seriously think I shed more than 500lbs over stock, and then put 150 of it back into the car as motor weight and another 100lbs back as rollcage and bracing. The fun thing is that all of my body panels (not bumpers) are still metal. (including my metal lids!) I have a secret ambition to build a 2nd car as a -4cylinder metal vintage racer and get it under 1700 without fiberglass..... Possible....not easy but possible.... brant

When you live in SF Bay Area its a bit different. We have a couple places that specialize in Porsches/914's who have some volume of used fiberglass and carbonfiber body parts cycling through their shops.

For cheap new stuff RennSpeed has stuff that doesnt fit pefectly, but it works. http://www.rennspd.com/Products.asp?Task=S...odID=13&catID=4 I personally would go with better quality fiberglass now that I have redone the car, but I'm making the Rennspeed stuff work. Its very light, but flexes and doesnt fit perfectly.

I have even found free fiberglass spoilers and rear set of fenders that were are in perfect condition. Ebay has cheap stuff occasionally too.

I could stand to lose about 75 lbs but taking weight off the car is so much easier!

QUOTE (brant @ Apr 7 2006, 07:48 PM)

I've got to start proof reading better... I should have put 67lbs total.. (because of adding back the glass f/r lids) I absolutely agree that every bit helps and I perfectly understand that 67 lbs is A LOT I also understand that you don't have to repaint the car and that paint cost doesn't have to factor into the equation. still I think my point remainst the same that for over a grand you are going to shed what seems like not a whole lot of weight. you can easily find 67lbs in the car elsewhere for free (just unbolt stuff) I agree with JP that the doors and door glass are the motherload of cheap weight. Next pull all of the heating and ventilation and headlights..... 1000 bucks is beaucoup money. and would buy a fresh set of sticky hoosiers that will make up more time than 67lbs will. brant

Where can I unbolt 67 lbs on a street car? I'm loking to trim some weight from the teener and I'm just curious...

Thanks,
Don

remember, I'm talking about a race car...
so on a street car I would start with all of the floor board insulation/tar

next take out the insulation in the engine bay

then the rubbber insulation matt behind the seat back pad

then the headlights, fog lights, horns, headlight motors, fresh air ventilation, rear heat system and heat exchangers, door glass, rear glass, door regulators, dash, interior....

heck I pulled the full wiring harness and saved about 20lbs right there.
(rewired only what was necessary with aircraft grade wiring that is lighter weight)

like I said, I'm talking about racing.
a lot of things would be nice to have still if it was a street car
still you can take all of the insulation and tar out of a street car and save about 75lbs, with the only trade off being road noise.

brant

Hi Bill,

This is a great subject. I'm going to weigh in here ( ) and say that you can get close to Andrew B with the right combination of power, weight reduction, and driving. A few years ago with our 914-6 Andrew, Steve N. and I were within thousandths of a second of each other. And our cars were setup very differently. The Smurfmobile is the lightest as they have pulled off much of the engine auxillary equipment. Last time I looked, "team smurf" had pulled off the alternator and cooling fan. That is why on really hot days they normally push the car to the start line. And they run with no windshield.

Our car was significantly heavier, with a full cage and a 6 motor and oil cooler system. But it also had alot more power. Our 2.7 dyno'd at 236HP at the crank. And I could rev it to 7500 RPM with a selective rev range switch (got the pill/switch idea from JP!)

I would go with 7's and 9's as the biggest flares if you wanna run TTOD. With Fritz I'm finding I have to give a little more room to get the wide rear flares around the cones. Since I wanted to have The Beast be a dual purpose car (AX, Track), the body work on it is the narrow Sheridan glass.

Here are a few links of my weight reduction program with our 914-6. There are some comments of the weight reduction and what components weigh what. It's my opinion that in order to catch the Smurfmobile you're going to have to make the car a track car only. But it's just my opinion.

Project Jenny Craig 1

Project Jenny Craig 2

Project Jenny Craig 3

Keep up the work! Can't wait to see the car out there!

Bill P.

Bill P., Wow. I'm truly impressed with the weight loss program you have put your car on. I'm not that ambitious. I'd also like to keep my windows working as I plan to drive the car to events rain or shine. I'm going to have to settle for some fiberglass body parts, gutting the heater, etc..., and gutting much of the interior.

Nice paint work. Perhaps I can tap you for advice whe it comes time to paint my car.

Heh.......I'd kinda forgotten about those old threads......an all too common occurance these days.

You shoulda' kept that car, Bill

So, need a new helmet......full face or open, I'm pondering.
Ya'll may wonder WTF this has to do with auto weight loss.....if I don't have a windshield, I'll *need* full face. A man's got to have a plan