I just bought my first 914. A hell blue 1976 2.0. What I want to do it put a bigger motor in it. I was thinking either an RX-7 twin rotor with turbos. A Subaru SVX 3.3L or a Porsche 911T,S,E Motor in it. Which one do you guys think would be the best buy for the power. Any comments or opinions are welcome.
Thanks,
Zach

that covers about 12 flavors of engine, in displacements from 2,0 to 3,8 liters.

what do you want to do with the car?
how much do you want to put into this project?

there are no cheap and easy conversions, although some are cheaper and easier than others - and there is no upper bound.

do you want to participate in Porsche Club events? without a Porsche engine, you may find yourself shut out.

what do *you* like? do you like the rotary chainsaw sound? the aircooled flat-6 sound? the rumbly V8 sound?

just about everything that will physically fit in a 914 (and a few that "don't") has been or is being used by someone -- and documented here on the board already...

It's a '76 and you live in California so whatever you decide it's got to pass smog.

Might limit your options..

Get to know the car and get to know the 2.0
Go to the WCC06 and look at what others have done.
Then you will be really confused, but I am sure you will have some good ideas.
Just take your time. Their are a ton of options and $$$ and time are the limiting factors.
If it is a running car enjoy it.

The California thing is going to be a killer. It IS possible to legally do an engine swap, but the engineering required to make the smog system pass at a referee station is far harder than just getting the engine itself to work. You'd need to engineer a catalytic convertor system, and bring over the ENTIRE smog system from the donor car, and somehow make it all fit.

I'd sell the '76 and buy another car, then proceed.

As for engine combinations, the SVX engine has been considered, but I don't know if anyone has actually done it, and you'd be on your own regarding designing and making engine mounts. The rotary has been done a few times, but you'll still be fabricating your own mounts from someone else's designs. The 911 engine has been done many times, and all of the parts required to do the job are available off the shelf, so if you're not keen on doing a lot of your own fab work, this is the way to go.

Suby WRX will be helpful when considering a car that must be smoged. Here is my subaru 2.0 WRX turboed engine installed in the bay. Very clean install and a whole lot of bang for the buck! Engine and ECU complete for $2K (2004 WRX engine with 4K miles).

Keith

Like James mentioned, getting an OBDII motor smogged is going to be tough, if you cannot do the work yourself, you better have deep, deep pockets.....everything has to work, you'll have to add a check engine light and modify the gas tank so that it can be lightly pressurized for the ecu to check for vapor leaks. I don't know how closely the smog refs look at conversions, but I doubt they let everything pass the 1st time.

Yes, I wouldn't even considering trying to get an OBDII engine to work in a 914 and be completely smog legal. A 1995 or earlier engine is a minimum requirement unless you want to go mad and spend very big money trying to get it all to work. Faking the sensors, as most people do when fitting a Soob engine using the Soob ECU will probably not pass a referee test. If you tried to do a regular smog check, it MIGHT work, but you'd be crossing your fingers every two years hoping the car passed this time.

my project Volvo 242 is a '76 and I've been looking into engine swaps, so far it appears at least for my application, going with a Volvo turbo motor from the mid-80's is the best solution

My $.02

If you want it to be a Porsche....a 911 six....

If you want it to be a bastard....anything else....

I think the 911 engine is soooo sweet in these cars I am doing it myself..it cost bucks to do right but it WILL be worth bucks in the long run.....It is a proven setup MANY MANY MANY X's over ..

Good luck

Josh C

This is not what I have come to expect from a Sooby conversion. While mine is still in the garage getting the final fluff and buff, Dana at Renegade has his on the road, smogged and registered. He used the stock wiring harness that he cut about 90% off and plugged it in. No sensor issues at all, no check engine lights, no pressure sensors on the tank. Not one problem at the DMV getting to pass smog tests, not one. This is really not as difficult as you may think.





OK...

This Bastard would like to meet you an the track and spank the shit out of ya!

Porsche 6 engine + 914 = big money, and unless you got a turbo'd six you also are a looser at the track up against the Soob.

Soob engine + 914 = not so much (around 5K for the whole swap) and you get the benifit if showing your ass end to all of the other guys on the track.

Just my $.02

Is this California, or Nevada?

In California, part of the smog check is plugging into the ODBII port on cars so-equipped, and verifying the data is "reasonable". If the Soob ECU reports everything is OK with 90% of the wiring harness missing, then OK. It would be nearly alone in the OBDII world to do so. Mazda's ECU will trip the check engine light if the gas cap is loose (as the tank won't pressurise).

If you want to do a LEGAL engine swap in California with a smog-controlled car, then you have to visit a referee station post-swap, and they do a much more thorough check than the local smog station does. They then issue a sticker and paperwork that states that this is an "approved" engine swap, so you can't be denying by some local smog station later when they realize a '76 914 didn't originally come with an engine that has SUBARU cast into the engine bits.

If you want to take a risk and just sail though a smog station with the Soob engine w/o visiting a referee station, you might pass. You might even pass most of the time, at most stations. Doesn't mean it's legal. If this is what Renegade does and advocates, well, that's not a practice I'd want to build a business on.

Let me first say that I do not speak on Renegade's behalf. That being said, we do have a customer/shop mechanic relationship. I listen as close as I can and absorb as much info as I can in various conversations. Here in Nevada, we do not have a referee station hurdle to jump over. The powers that be here in Nevada do not look under your hood to see if you have a VW 2.0 liter or a Suby 2.0 liter... They just think you have the VW TIV. This is very helpful when getting your car to pass. When was the last time you got pulled over, and the cops asked you to see your engine? I am 37 years old, and have gotten many huge tickets speeding, and this has never happened to me. As a matter of fact, a friend and I were hauling down I95 at about 160mph, got pulled over and let go. No engine check. I am not saying that I am being 100% honest in obtaining my smog certificate, but how many of us has bent the truth regarding the purchase price of a used car when attempting registration? I think the good ole gov't getts the best of me more than I do them.

You live in NEVADA...take 2 seconds to look at the location of the original poster...then make a comment

In my best Homer Simpson voice....

Dough!

My bad, you are correct in correcting me. Has anyone tried something like this in Cali? With the Suby?

And you don't have to yell at me.

I'm happy NV is looser, but the original poster is in California, so Mueller and I were answering as fellow Californians on CA requirements.

If the poster had a '70-'75 914, this would all be a non-issue. But '76 cars are still subject to smog checking here, and thus have to jump through all of the hoops. Hence, my suggestion that he dump the '76 and buy an earlier car.

back to original q's and engine choices....

a 911T is just barely an upgrade for the amount of money it'll take, if I did a /6 conversion I'd go with a bigger (usally more expensive) engine. Advantage, done 1000's (???) of times so plenty of help and parts

SVX?? why? it's an old motor design, I'd go with the newest Suby /6 or go with a modern suby /4, both of which can be found for not too much money....getting more popular, kit(s) availabe for the /4...seems like one of the easiest motors to install if doing it from scratch and not using a kit....

leave the rotary motors to the rx-7 guys..

The SVX is an old motor design that still makes well over 200hp stock, and can be tuned to 300hp. Seems good enough to me...

The 2.4 911T is a nice upgrade, IMHO. Loads more torque, but not so much you have to ever worry about the gearbox. T engines are cheap, and after you recover from the costs of the swap, you can always rebuild a 2.4T into a 2.4E, which is a fabulous engine, or make a short-stroke 2.5, or whatever. It's not hard at all to get 175-180hp out of a 2.4, which is certainly as much as you'd get out of an NA Soob 2.5.

You were doing 160mph, and they let you go? Ticketed? Which car? Is there more to this story?

complete '04 WRX turbo motor with transmission with a claimed 1,000 miles on the combo....on ebay right now....$5.5K

that would be a killer deal....another few grand to install it...hmmmmm, wonder if the wife would notice that on the credit card

Just wanted to say thank you!! All of you guys who think you would like a Porsche, but don't want to use the original motor slowly make my stock car more and more rare!! I recommend buying a Mazda, or maybe even a Subaru, they are highly compatible with the engines you are interested in.

Here is my take on it:


Porsche 4

Reliable, lightweight, keeps the car Porsche, cheap to install but is expensive to get serious power out of it.

Porsche 2.2 or 2.7 Flat 6

Reliable, somewhat lightweight, keeps the car Porsche, a bit more expensive to install and expensive to get serious power out of it. Has that Porsche flat six sound though.

Porsche 3.0, 3.2, 3.6, etc.

Reliable, not as lightweight, keeps the car Porsche, better have a decent budget as it's going to be more expensive to purchase and install engine (especially 3.6), rebuilds will cost more than others, really, really expensive to get in excess of 350 hp.

Chevy V8

Reliable, not lightweight, install kits readily available, good power and torque, lots of tech advice from people who have been there, done that. Fairly commonplace. Cheap to buy engine and rebuild.

Mazda 13B Rotary Non Turbo

Cheap to buy, lightweight, reliable in normally aspirated form, makes good power, not too common so your car will be something different. Need to make your own kit. Not many people understand the engine so getting advice may be tougher. More expensive than V8 to rebuild but cheaper than Porsche.

Mazda 13BREW (Twin Turbo)

Medium price to buy, still lightweight however turbo parts add weight, makes decent power stock and ungodly power modified. Twin Turbo system difficult to keep working correctly in an RX7 let alone on a project car. In fact many RX7 owners convert to single turbo just for this reason. Will need stand alone engine management. Budget will be between V8 and Porsche 6 for both install and rebuilds.

Subaru 3.3 Flat Six (SVX)

Cheap to buy, similar sound and weight to Porsche 6. Decent power stock but very limited aftermarket for performance parts if you want more. Not very common so there won't be much help from those who have been there/done that.

Subaru 2.2 or 2.5 Turbo

Cheap to buy, lightweight, decent power stock and can easily be increased with wide assortment of aftermarket products. Kits available for install. Becoming more common so decent install support available. Probably best all round compromise - not best at any one thing but good enough at most.


Toyota/Lexus V8

Cheap to buy, all aluminum so lighter weight, decent power with 4 valves per cylinder, good reliability. Rev's high and sounds good. Limited aftermarket and not a common swap so little tech support.

Toyota 3SGTE

Bulletproof motor, good power with stock turbo, large aftermarket, lightweight. Not a common swap so limited tech support.

Mazda 3 Rotor (20b)

The big block of rotaries, reliable in non turbo form, cheaper than a Porsche 6 to buy and rebuild, cheaper than Porsche 6 to make over 400 hp in normally aspirated form with proper porting, unique V12 type sound, no kit available for install so you basically are adapting a V8 kit to work (radiator, etc.), unbelievable "WOW" factor - needless to say this is what I'm going with.


Now if you have to meet emmissions of any kind forget all about the above swaps and buy yourself a Prius.

I dunno, it makes a stock 914 more valuble for those looking for a stock 914, but I think some of these conversions might still make all 914s worth more as more people get exposure to the cars due to conversions. Since that one 914/suby was shown in the magazine, I wonder if that has sparked more interest in 914s and are there a few buyers looking for a good solid car with the intent of doing a conversion??

Just currious if Cali has any collector/classic car registration program. In Colorado, collector tags are permanent, and you never have to smog the car again so long as you own it. Meaning, once you get the first smog check and register the car, the sky's the limit...

Yeah, from what I remember of Cali laws, you'd need to transplant in a driveline from the same year. Still, that gives you a 2.7L six. Not too shabby....

-Josh2

I'm with getting a smog exempt car and then get what ever engine you want...

The test centers I've been to, will know something is up with the visual inspection.
Besides, smog exempt will save $60 every 2 years, and probably make reselling easier.

of course if one is a masochist, you could always just install whatever motor combo you want and re-do the swap every 2 years....all of the engine conversions should be reversible (the smog guys don't give a hoot if you have a raditor in the front trunk, just drain it and leave it in)

There's a clause that allows 35-year-old or older cars to be registered as "collector" cars, which means they must carry collector insurance (mileage limits, etc). They still have to be smogged if they're newer than 1975 (obviously not yet in effect), but they only have to pass a tailpipe test, not the visual/OBDII checks.

The "same year chassis and engine" rule hasn't been true for some time now. Pre-'76, you can pretty much do whatever you like. Post '75, the year of the chassis or the year of the engine WHICHEVER IS NEWER, is what sets the smog rules you have to pass. So, if you stuff a 2004 WRX engine into a 1976 914, you suddenly have a 2004 914 as far as the smog police are concerned, so you have to pass 2004 regs. Hence, you have to carry over 100% of the 2004 engine's smog equipment.

Look at the list in my signature, the choices of conversions are increasing. More people want performance technologies that are now common in basic cars. If you like a particular engine, contact the member who's done it and learn from him. This is the benefit of the "club". The first type converters are people who are pioneers, hot rodders, or engineers not collectors or Marque preservationists.

Be aware any new conversion will cost $10k min and hundreds of hours if done thoroughly on top of basic refurbishment of a 35 year old car. There are exceptions and exceptional people but don't kid yourself, R&D is either counted or a given. You can buy R&D in a kit if available but expect to pay a premium...

With a 76... It may be nearly impossible to get a flat-six in there passing smog. Keep it a stock type 4, have a muffler shop weld a catalytic convert in. If it's got a stock exhaust system you'll have a primary muffler that can be replaced with a high-flow cat. There's no O2 sensor to worry about. Put some swaybars on it, drive it, and enjoy it.

Then find yourself a pre 1976 914 for the fun conversion.

I got the car for 2500 because the lady next door didn't want it in her garage anymore. So the rotary is out and I think that the Porsche /6 would be WAY too much money to purchase. So I think that a Subaru would be best. SO the reason I was looking at the SVX was because it has 3.3 liters and 233HP. BUT the thought of having a WRX motor would be cool. Do they sound good unmuffled? I want to drive it to high school without mufflers. I don't know what. I guess to draw attention away from the cruddy Nissan's, Honda's, and Acura's LOL.

Zeekman,

Check out this thread about smog in CA.

CA Smog Laws for conversions

I ended up selling my 1976 and bought a 1975 to do a Chevy V8 Renegade Conversion.

You will find a phone number in that thread to call. Just talk to the state and figure out if you can pull off what you want to do.....it will be tough but may be possible. You need to cozy up to the referees.

Bill P.

Without mufflers??
If you need to be heard to be seen, you got some issues

The WRX motor is turbocharged, so it sorta already has at least one muffling device.....

Easiest thing to do is install a different muffler, the entire '75/'76 exhaust sucks, but not an easy thing to replace nor cheap. The 914 is not a Honda, there are no easy or cheap bolt-on items.

Even with an SVX motor figure $1000 to $1500 for the motor, another $600 for the adapter stuff, another $500 to $1000 for the raditor....it all adds up real quick......

I want to be heard BEFORE I'm seen. There is a hill that you hve to go up to get into the upper parking lot by the gym. So going up the hill I want it to be loud and abnoxious BEFORE its seen. THEN I want people to see it and be like "Ooh what's that?"

Just bribe the smog guy to get through. It may cost you an extra 100$ but then your won't have the issue.

Ya, we were in his highly modified 930. He has well over 30K in the engine alone. This car is truly sick. At 150, downshift into 3rd and it slams you in your seat.

And the plot thickens!

Ok, I am back in....

Suby, is the way to go. Loads of inexpensive HP, not too much torque. Perfect for the 914. Additionally it is as close to the original powerplant that today's technology offers.

I was also talking with my dad about it and he wanted to know if I thought about a Lexus V8. What do you guys think?

I think we want you to read what's been posted

Smog laws on a 1976 will kill almost every conversion idea in California. You not only have to have all factory smog equipment (smog pump/air injection) but a catalytic converter system and OEM-styled muffler. To top it off, you still have to get clean numbers by today's standards.

Get a pre-76 car to do a conversion.

For the effect you really want, go rotary with no mufflers!!!
But then the problem is they wouldn't be like "Ooh what's that?" They would be more like "who's that moron?!?" Buy hey, the cops would bust you before you had to worry about the smog check.

For that, just run glasspacks or magnaflows. It'll be loud enough, not to loud, deep sounding, and not anoying..

Run that on any engine with 2.5in pipes will insure you a nice exhaust sound.

I understand the subies draw. Horsepower, inexpensive conversion (relatively)...however...

IMHO - there is nothing like a porsche six - sound, smell and yes it can go to Porsche events. I agree with what has been said earlier - if your car is in good shape - keep it original, if you want to modify one - find a cheap roller and build exactly what you want. All any of your proposed changes require is money, money and time. In other words 2/3 money 1/3 time. Ask anyone who has done it themselves - or tried to...

Roller + Subie conversion = one hot AX car and it still sounds (relatively) like a 914 4!

I'm with you Andyrew. To me there's a big difference between the healthy rumble that makes you notice with awe, and the "no muffler obnoxious noise" he was talking about.

just about all the new motors put out in the last few years are good engines....anything can be done...the biggest question is can YOU do it??? if you don't have a machine shop or have big money to pay someone to do it, then no, YOU cannot do it.....

i suggest you sell the 914, make a profit and buy a Honda, cause you are going to be greatly disappointed in what you can and cannot do with the car (unless you got skills or money or a combo of both)

For my two cents worth, keep it stock or move out of Cali.! You ain't gonna win bro so be wise and have two 914's. It would probably be cheaper to get one partially done the way you want than doing it yourself. Have them both look the same and make some money fooling those rice jobers. As for a REAL conversion with all the attitude of a noisy nonmufller job; go with a Kholer 22hp of shear listen to her rumbel pleasure!!!!

Actually, my car is not smog legal at all. in order to be california smog legal(and Las Vegas) a car must have a fully functioning check engine light that is off, mine functions (and is on ). as for being registered my car is,( in wyoming ) you would need to address these and many other issues to make the car smog legal. We just finished off a california smog legal ls1 944 and let me tell you it is one hell of a task! I think that it is possible to make a subie california smog legal and any other engine you may have been looking at, but I would recomend considering a vin swap to a pre-76 vin. believe me that is the easiest( but not legal ) way to go.

Dana.

Actually, my car is not smog legal at all. in order to be california smog legal(and Las Vegas) a car must have a fully functioning check engine light that is off, mine functions (and is on ). as for being registered my car is,( in wyoming ) you would need to address these and many other issues to make the car smog legal. I just finished off a california smog legal ls1 944 and let me tell you it is one hell of a task! I think that it is possible to make a subie california smog legal and any other engine you may have been looking at, but I would recomend considering a vin swap to a pre-75 vin. believe me that is the easiest( but not legal ) way to go.

In California - Dana means pre-76 not pre-75. Any car 1975 or earlier does not have to pass smog or even be tested for smog.

I think that I will just sell the car I got and do what you said and look for a pre 1975 car.

FWIW I think you are making the right decision in the long run. I just sold my nice '76 because I wanted more hp but couldn't really mod it and still pass smog and then after weighing all the options, went the Subie conversion route.