Watched RIDES tonight on INHD and it was all about the 550 Spyder replicas. While I was watching, I started wondering why we could not put a high performance Type-I engine in our teeners.

What are the limitations? Any reason people are not doing it?

BTW, I did search for this in the archives and did not come up with much...

uhoh





b

type 1s are kinda over-rated. They really dont have the girth and reliability that the t4 has...

IMO.

b

Why yes?

They just don't have the torque a type 4 does. Head design is different, type 4 heads flow better and have more potential for a bigger hp/torque engine.

Only positive I can think of... Parts are super cheap and radical engine builds are affordable.

but i hear that 100k miles per build in a t1 is about the ceiling.....

although ive been through two engines in 5k miles

b

I know a guy with a type one N/A with dual 52 Webers and he is putting out 320 ponies on the dyno. I am not sure about the longevity however but I also know he has about $5k just in head work.

At least twice of that if you don't drive it like a racecar, frequent tuneups, oil changes, etc. If you care for a Type 1 (or any engine for that matter) you can achieve longetivity. Shit, in my experience Type 1s are masochistic. They like being abused. my last type 1 was water siezed, overheated, run lean, run rich, over-revved and at one point ate an alternator.

Thing still started up, idled at 900, and kept going after I sold it for $250 more than I paid

Type 1 heads flow way better than type 4 because of the difference in the exhaust ports.....That is the main reason they can be bumped up to over 300 HP fairly easily....BUT they don't last very long when you make that kind of power.
Great for drag racing, but you will rebuild often.

I have a type 1 (1776) in my dune buggy, and it makes probably as much if not more HP than the 1911 in my 914, mainly because of the head work, and cam. The torque's ok too.

Funny you mention that, this guy I know with that engine has been running it for 3 seasons in a sand rail. Has not rebuilt it yet.

There are plenty of people converting their bugs to type 4. Maybe you could pick up an old engine

T-4 , yes it is more expensive to build but so is a six. T-4 can obtain a higher cc

rateing. No mod's needed on the car. And no teeners teaseing you about the T-1

in your engine bay. T-1 exaust turns 90 degrees and goes horizontal T-4 turns 90

and goes vertical, so why would it flow better.

Hi

I asked this question about a year ago, I am also surprised there aren't more T1 914s, if any ?
T1 stuff is plentiful and cheap. Huge resourses for aftermarket parts. I like the 1911cc setup, had one in a 72 bug.
I think that if you are thinking about the Type1 you have to add the costs of a carb conversion (or FI), Clutch, cooling system (its too fugly to put in a teener engine bay) and exhaust. And I think there is an issue of the motor turning the wrong way ???can someone confirm this?
Its a hard call, a fresh T1 motor carbed/cammed, ignition, exhaust, clutch, you start coming to the T4 stock rebuild price range. If you bargain or find it used, its a lot less. IMHO a <125hp T1 is every bit as reliable as a T4.
If you have a less than perfect 914, that needs just about everthing under the hood replaced...T1 is an option...I always thought it was a good idea for Britt, daily driver, cheap to fix.

Has anyone here have/had this type of conversion? Mark H (member)is a good source for T1 info, maybe he will chime in.

Later

Putting a T-1 in a 914 would be going backward. T-4 is a evolution of the VW aircooled design.

And those T-1's which make high HP numbers are drag motors. 914's are sports cars not dragsters.

There are T-4's going in bugs and buses not the other way around. Go to Samba.com and have a look.

A 914 is about 600 pounds heavier than the heaviest hard top beetle..

While the TI guys are converting to TIV power, the 914 guys are busy throwing out the TIV for alternative powerplants.... now someone wants to put a peaky engine with 80% of it's parts made in a 3rd world country into their teener...

I'm confused..

not 3rd world for much longer.....

b

Brazil? As long as Lula's in charge it will be. Is there such a thing as a 4th world country?

I was thinking China.

b

But has anyone actually done it ?

I would think someone has....I know i've seen a wasserboxer motor in a 914 (in Hawaii)...it has the same exhaust as the Type I

It has been done...

Yes, I have done it- back in the early 90s...

The car had a worthless powerband and ran hot as a firecracker... The gear ratio differences between a TI and a 914 are incredibly different, couple that to the added 914 weight and it's a Type 1 head killer...

Doesn't the Karmann Ghia weigh about the same as a 914?

nope

turbo is a quick fix but you need a good bank book when you do this

What does the exhaust direction have to do with head flow?

Come on, OK if you can't get the gases out you can't get the gas in.

That's why people run headers..

Or are you being sarcastic?

I understand that.

But obviously I'm stupid when it comes to understanding why horizontal vs. vertical exhaust affects head flow.

Exactly.... Look at post # 8 and you will understand why I asked that Q..

That is the only differance that I have found.

I thought the talk was about how the design of the head enabled a type4 to flow better than a type1 through the head itself, not putting the exhaust pipe in the equation.

I thought you were saying horizontal vs. vertical exhaust had something to do with head flow.

I guess I'm missing something, or I'm just stupid.

No, I don't think you are stupid. But the two are tied together. It's like pouring water into a bucket, if the bucket only has a pin hole for the water to escape than it dosen't matter how much water you put in. Still only a little is going to escape

Let me try this, Throttle exaust, no matter how good your fuel injection is
if your pipe is restrictive your not going to get the power that you could
if it breaths as well as it is fed.

I hope I was more clear this time.

I'm trying to follow your arguement but you're still not making any sense. I'd recommend you quit the for awhile so you'll start making sense

Guys, the issue here is gravity.



b

[Quote
Type 1 heads flow way better than type 4 because of the difference in the exhaust ports.....That is the main reason they can be bumped up to over 300 HP fairly easily.


The quote above was the reason I made the comment about the exhaust port. The port turns

90 degrees and on a type one it runs horizontal, on a type 4 it runs vertical.

That is the only difference I have found. My heads are ported and they flow

very well, as well as a type 1 head with the same work. I never said that the

port running horivontal or vertical would make a performance difference.

I am only saying that I am of the opinion that the type 4 head will flow as well if

not better than the type 1. Am I clear this time or would you like a diagram.

Just to add a little more question to this thread...

Several folks have stated that they think or know Type 1 heads out flow a Type 4 head...

Well.... Maybe.....

So let me throw this out you guys....

What BONE STOCK VW Type 1 head...
Out flows a BONE STOCK 2.0 914 head?
On either the intake or the exaust side... or both??????????

Just trying to get the facts here...

I am interested in your answers...

Twystd1

Lets got back to your bucket of water...

On a Type-4 the gases flow into the top of the head (or bucket) and out of the bottom of the head (or bucket). On a type 1 the gas flow into the top and than turn 90 degree and exit out the side of the head (or bucket). Therefore it is "easier" for the gases to flow through the head.

Here is a shot of a T-1 buggy with the exhaust header on the back side of the head. If this was a t-4 it would be under the head.

With regards to the exhaust discussion. Here are my 2 cents please bare in mind that some of this is my opinion.

Turbulence = Friction
Velocity = Flow

Turbulence is inversely proportional to Velocity

If you increase the turbulence you reduce the velocity and hence reduce the flow.

I believe the key here is that the flow out of the head must be coupled with the intake charge. Therefore increasing the flow ad infinitum is not necessarily good for performance/economy.

All sort of things can create turbulence a radical bend in an exhaust pipe or a big difference in exhaust diameters.

Following the discussion of gravity and the bucket analogy. I don't believe that where the actual exhaust port is located really matters, since we are talking about a gas which is compressible and gravity has little to no effect on the flow. The exhaust gas is lighter then air and will rise, following that logic putting the exhaust port higher in the chamber should increase the flow I have no evidence to this though.

Bottom line for me, work with someone who has experience and a flow bench, e.g. Gene Berg (Clyde Berg), Jake Raby (Len Hoffman)

In my bucket analogy I wasn't using gavity as the having an effect on the gass passing through the bucket. I was explaining that a 90 degree change in direction will "slow" or restrect the exiting gases from exiting the bucket verses a stright line.

"If you increase the turbulence you reduce the velocity and hence reduce the flow."

And gases having to exit at 90 drgrees from the intake valve will create turbulance.

We agree.

WOW...

The fact is that the Type 1 with it's exhaust port location being on the side of the head is more difficult to cool because the port gets in the way of creating finned areas that encapsualte the exhaust port.

The Type 4 and the 911 have vertical exhaust discharge and have cooling fins that totally surround the hottest part of the head to help shed heat.

All that Type 1 HP does you no good because the engines heat soak and become worthless because they lack cooling surface area and a design to get the exhaustarea of the head cooled down.

The difference i the heads is a difference in the intended application for the engines-period.

I have personally experienced the Type 1 deficiencies when I did the test work for my Type 1 DTM cooling system. The Type 1 took 8 months to get a positive result from, the Type 4 took 1 week to make perfect!

Here, let's extend your analogy a little bit. On a type 4, stuff flows in from the top of the head. Then it makes a 90-degree turn to get to the exhaust valve, then another 90-degree turn to head downward. The Type I head omits that second turn.

Now which "should" flow more?

...Just trying to show some of the flaws in the analogy...

I think a T-I in a 914 is a big step backwards, personally.

--DD

matters not addressed. how do you figure to hold up the front of the engine? how would you make the engine tin work? heat exchangers?... forget it. the wheel is known to be round, there is no need to reinvent it. what does it cost to squeeze a whooping 95hp out of a t-1?

k

Could you please explain that first 90 degree turn to get to the exhaust valve?

Thanks

URY, most of this discussion in based on the assumption that the direction of the flow into the head is from the top and that the most efficient path would be downward.

The intake charge is compressed and then ignited with the pistion moving the waste gas on the horzontal plane of the engine away from the center of the engine. Based on your argument the most efficient path would be through the valve cover.

Wow is right, I went off the deep end on this discussion but I love it and actually learned something:

I'll take Jake at his word with the limiting factor being heat disappation.
Looking at only one element of the engine or in this case head flow would be fatal mistake unless you look at all other factors.

Cheers!

And the second most would be downward. But like Jake said the heat is the killer on these heads not the flow restrections.

Flow makes power- no doubt.. BUT what good is that power if it's only going to creat an engine that can't be cooled???

Thats why the Type 1 is the king of the strip, the heat don't matter when you are going 1/4 mile at a time!

engines that operate over temp and heat soaked lose efficiency and power- period.

Hey Jake (thanks for answering my PM )

Don't your new billet heads have the Type I exhaust port configuration?

The exhaust direction has NOTHING to do with how much the head will flow. That piston's coming up and the exhaust is going out whatever direction a valve and port lets it, doesn't matter up, down or sideways. The problem with the T4 head flow out the bottom is that the exhaust port is between the pushrod tubes. You can't put a huge exhaust tube onto it, like you can a T1, everythings got to be squeezed through a relatively small orifice. The aftermarket T1 heads are different castings and have almost no limit on exhaust port size, so they can flow much more than even a highly modified T4 head.

The head differences affect how much total power you can get from an engine, but when you're talking about putting a T1 into a 914 the important difference is the relative overall strengths of the two types of engines. Look at a T4 crank alongside a T1 crank, the T1 looks like a toy. Compare the size of the T4 main bearings to the T1's. Look at the size of the rods, the quality of the T4 aluminum case. A stock T1 magnesium case will pound out main journals so consistently that most builders automatically align-bore T1 cases when they come in, if they're even still usable. That's not a problem with the nice aluminum T4 case from teeners.

The T4 engine is just stronger in every way, meaning it can push a (relatively) heavy 914 around and be thrashed far past the point that a T1 would start puking oil. It might not be as easy to reach the peaks of horsepower that a T1 can get to, but it can hold on to and keep making the power it makes a heck of a lot longer than a T1. That doesn't mean a hipo T1 wouldn't work in a 914, just not as long. Heck, you can get 300 hp from a Honda Civic or Ford Focus motor, just not for very long at a time. But you can get 400 hp for years at a time from a Chevy V8, no problem. It's built for it. Same thing T1 vs. T4.

Yes and I have paid special attention to that area of the head design and went to great pains to promote cooling capability- thats why the heads are not on the market after 3 years. Hell, the newest versions even feature high grade electronic heat sinks to help get rid of the exhaust port heat.

Paul is correct- the engine don't give a dam where the exhaust exits- its the long and short radius properties of the given port that promote certain powerbands due to velocity and volume.

The Type 1 head loves volume and thats great for peaky power...

The type 4 head loves velocity and thats good for torque and a broad power band..

The Type 1 is just a toy-

Peltier coolers on a cylinder head???

Ingenious! Well, until the peltiers fail and reverse, pumping heat into the heads....

still ingenious.

b

Hope I'm not

But this is good learning.

My take is all the talk about exhaust pipe direction, and the flow having to make a 90 degree turn between the intake and exhaust ports, yada yada, is mostly nonsense.

Regarding head flow, it's not like a smooth flow that is inhibited by a direction change. Some of the logic here might work if you just opened all the valves and forced air through under constant pressure, but that's not what happens. It gets sucked in through the head. It gets pushed out through the head. Saying that making it go in a straight line would increase flow is rubbish. After all, there's a compression stroke in there. And an explosion. That's not flow. Flow out the exhaust port happens when the piston pushes the exhaust out. (Of course the size and shape of the port and exhaust matters, but that's not what I'm talking about.)

Thanks all. While there's been some madness, the discussion helps bring some understanding.

I stand corrected. I have learned from this post that I am wrong when I went on and on about the 90 degree exit of the exhaust of the T-1.

Sever me up a little crow

Color me humbled,
Paul