Ok, Thinking seriously about this now.

I've located an old aluminum 2.0 case with crank and intermediate shaft.

1. What mods would need to be done to this case?
2. If you were gonna build it to a 2.2 what would you put in it? Brand Names, part #'s, sizes all appreciated. (assume I need everything)

Thanks,
Sean

I'd first buy and then read Bruce Andersons 911 Perfomance Handbook

Da' Bible

First 914/6 I ever drove was a nieghbors original /6 with a motor rebuilt to 2.2 S specs......love at first Rev

i've been down part of this path before...

Al-case 2,2's won't need shuffle pins. might need an align bore (or hone) if it's had a hard life - i prefer Competition Engineering for stuff like that but i'm sure there are other competent places. Ollie's, prolly.

piston squirters - post '70 911 engines had 'em which means yours might or might not. whatever mods are needed for the oil pump you want to run - the 964 pump gets high marks. the scavenge update.

JE pistons, EBS Nikasil cylinders, Carillo rods. 930 tensioners with the updates. probably 4-bearing cam towers so you can run new-style cams, unless you want to go vintage (early S or 906 or someething...)

i'll think of more after dinner i'm sure ... watch this space...

Rich kinda summed it up

However I wouldnt give Carillo the snot off an old tissue... Ive dealt with them before, the customer service was lacking, and I had to wait for ages to get what I ordered.

For shits and giggles I had someone check out some carillo rods that "failed"... the rods met carillos published specs..... yet carillo told me they were NFG

Use Pauter..

I refuse to comment on this thread. You should have had me build a 2.2 4 cyl engine. The guy who wins GT5 in a 914 runs a 4cyl. SPANKS everyone at EVERY event he attends.


B

I aint racin' no four banger! THe six sounds better!

Brad, are you talking about 2.2 fours or sixes?

I don know shiet about fours........

I do know If you gave me some carillo rods Id hand them back and say no thanks... Thats how I feell about the experiences Ive had with carillo.


Pauter.....

well - i didn't say buy them from Carillo :-) ...

Jerry Woods stocks them, buys in big enough quantities they'll listen when he orders; i'd buy from him ...

Pauter ? i have no first-hand knowledge. Jerry and Bruce Anderson don't think much of 'em tho.

pays yer money, takes yer chances.

i think if i were doing a 2,2 i'd find out if the factory titanium rods are still available :-) ...

that sounds pricey!

I'm thinking the key question to answer is where you want your power to be i.e. how high do you want to rev this puppy?

If you want to build a 9000 RPM small six then bring money for all the titunobtainium innards and primo machine work to keep it from grenading. Otherwise the factory built 'em pretty well to rev to 7200-7300 all day long with good longevity.

Somebody told me the HSR 2.0 cars are running up to 8200, maybe higher, in 5th gear at the end of the straights

I suppose headwork is also a key factor. The heads in my 2.2 pseudo-S are a "mystery" but I suspect they were not really reworked from the stock 914-6 setup. That is probably OK for now even though it leaves power on the table, cuz port work would stick me with even more classification points.

Tim,

I was talking about Alan Johnsen from Colorado running a 2.2 4cyl. He literally WHIPS everyone in GT5R no matter what event he attends. He runs a 2.2 liter 914. When we run PCA we have to run our 1.8 liter cars againts him. Its a struggle with 1.8 running against 2.2's.


B

here is a qualifying sheet from the colorado club race a week and a half ago:

PCA-pueblo

brant

Only 1.4 seconds faster than number two qualifyer.

There where more 914's than 911's at that race.


B

Colorado is actually pretty 914 heavy... There are frequently a lot of 914's at the bigger events..

Grand Junction is not that big of a town but there are probably 15 teeners that race out of that town.
Allen wrenches on most of those.

It seems that colorado 914 owners are not so internet active though.

brant

Yeah. They actually WORK on their cars.

Did you see Seans comment above: "I aint racing no 4cyl"

He hasnt paid for a full weekend of PCA or SCCA racing.


B

yeah but if you talk to Allen the life of one of his race motors is a couple hours.

I disagree... I think he told me he had multiple seasons on that 2.2 motor, and he thought it was putting out 200hp at sea level.

I've seen one of his motors let go short of its lifespan. Its not a common thing. It spun the cam gear, and they felt it was a defective part.

I know I had 2 of his (smaller 2.0) motors. I wish I could put this into hours, but didn't have a meter on it. The first lasted for 3 seasons on a 2 driver PCA Car. This included a total of about 12 DE events and 4 club races each season... so x3 I would say roughly 30drivers ed weekends and 10 club race weekends.

The 2nd motor was only 2 years old and showed even less wear (which I attribute to an improved cooling and oil filtering system that was put onto the car)

He builds 6cylinders too.
His motors are not cheap.
I had 5k in the 1st and 6k in the last one.
but they are not time bombs either.

brant

I feel like I'm bragging now...
I love that track, and this is the first year in 8 or 10 years I didn't have a running car to go....

here is my qualifying sheet from last year:

bragging

this was a class "I" car not one of the big-uns...

brant

Ok I misspoke I like Allen a lot and have a lot of respect for what he does and some of the great ideas he comes up with.

Have you ask what he does to the engine between races? How far down does he take for inspection? Etc? I’m not knocking what he does with them. What I was trying to imply is that the 4’s just don’t have the same life span as a 6. (So says the person with a 4 in his 914 race car and a 6 in the 911.) I’ve got more $$$ in my 4 2.0 than in the 6 right now.

I agree about the 6's having a better life span... Thats part of why I'm building a 2.0/6 car right now.

I'm not trying to start the whole debate about 4 versus 6.... but I know that Allen's car is lighter than a 6, and his results are damn impressive.

I can answer the question about inbetween race service: change the oil/adjust the valves...

thats it, unless there is a problem.
Allen never has time to touch his own engine. I don't think he does anything more to his than anyone elses.

I'm not saying that he is "oh so greater than anyone"..
I've never had one of Brad's or one of Raby's motors and I'm sure they are great too.... I was just going along with the statement that a 4 can be damn fast also...

Part of his results come from very well refined suspension, very skilled driving, and a very good "whole" package.

brant

It's interesting, down here in SoCal there are virtually NO race -4's anymore. They are basically all either sixes or stock D-Jet 2.0's running in spec classes. I only know of two guys in POC running fours in production or above classes, i.e. V5. I think John Rogers was about the last -4 left in HSR, and he just went to a six.

Actually I don't know of any -4 race engine builders down here either, so maybe it's a chicken-and-egg situation? The major shops are pretty 911-engine oriented. Hell, my former mechanic wouldn't even touch a 914-4...

Bruce Anderson's handbook will be here on Friday.

There is a really,really,really good article in the Dec 2000 Excellence about Wayne Baker's t-4 race car.
He won in IMSA GTU in the 70's in a 914. He also managed to finish the Daytona 24hr in it.

Reading between the lines is very informative....like when he knew the motor needed a rebuild.
Somewhere in it, he mentions that he had $7K *in his heads*. He says 220 hp from 2.2L.

The car was ultra trick, also. It now has a second life with Ron Mistak

Did I mention it is a really gud article? IMO, a *must read* for t-4 wonks. My scanner is toast, so I can't share.

i need to find a copy of that; i was in the shop at Dennis Sherman Foreign Car Service in La Mesa, CA the day Wayne and his crew picked up that car from Dennis, its original owner. it was blue, then; it didn't stay blue very long.

that's the car that was in my avatar picture for a long time; since this is the 914 group, i'll put it back to that car tonight when i get back from the RTR PCA meeting.

that picture, BTW, was from one of the car's last outings as a Wayne Baker car, at the Riverside 6-hr in what - 1979 ? the painting will be a door prize at this year's MUSR...

I should have that Excellence in my archives and could scan the article, iff'n I can locate the mag. It may have been in the batch that was water-damaged & tossed...

is a 2.2 66 stroke and 84 bore?

THIS PAGE Looks like a good brief history.

So, in S configuration it got 180! Not bad! Other than the cams, is there a difference between the T, E & S motors?
Zenith vs Weber carbs maybe?

Different compression rates, I bet.

DUH! It says that right there on that page! DOH

Sean,

yeah... differences.
different porting, different valves, different heads, different cams, different crank shafts, different rods (I think), and different pistons, different cylinders...
Same cases though.. well maybe.

Some of the factory small bore hp #'s are considered a bit optimistic too...

I think the biggest difference is budget though.
The 6 cylinder requires all of the conversion stuff=$5G
Also, a lot of race modified 6 cylinder motors cost 15 -20 grand once they are build ...

The cheap horsepower with a 6 cylinder is in the displacement (duh)... so a 3.0/6 can be a good reliable deal at 200hp.... but a 2.0/6 at 200hp can be just as delicate and expensive as a 4 race motor....
optimized race motors are just expensive ....

brant

The car is already converted and it has a 2.7 in it. It's being put back together after a complete rebuild, except the oil pump. Well, now it's got a new oil pump, after it died when we were getting all excited about being done. But it's going slow (I'm not doing the rebuild) and if I sell the 2.7 to a buddy who uses the same guy, I can pull my car out of there and get it back on the track with a 2.2 built to S specs or better. I'm not afraid of what it takes to get it done, but I'm not willing to play the waiting game like I have been.

yes.

You know, honestly I've read BA's book about 3 times and didn't really find it all that enlightening.

I have a copy of the factory's booklet re. 911 engines for sport & competition purposes, which might have some good info on cams and stuff.

The factory got as much as 220 or maybe even 240HP out of their 2.0 race motors 30 years ago...

It looks like I can get similar horsepower to what my 2.7 was supposed to have out of a good 2.2 .
That's the good news. The bad news is it's probably gonna cost me some dough.

The solution here is to DIY.
It's not rocket science. If it breaks, you don't have anyone else to blame.
Most of the parts will be reusable....hopefully. Gud winter project....spring, too.

I am thinking about pulling my 2.2S pistons and cams, and going to high compression JE's or Mahle race pistons, and more cam. Might do some porting work at the same time and maybe race valve springs or any other mods that make a lot of sense for reliability and rev-safety.

I might be able to squeeze a 2.5 short-stroke into the current class I am running in, but it would be pretty tough and I can't really afford to build a completely new motor. The innards of my current 2.2 are somewhat of a mystery but it sure seems like a decent starting point for my current skill & budget level; pulls pretty well and no smoke or funky issues at all. I am sure there is more power left in it for a helluva lot less dough than a complete case-up build.

I wonder what the "optimum" tweaks are for a factory six motor without going to crap on longevity?

POC is a little different about that than PCA. PCA is classed by engine displacement & slicks vs dot r tiars (GT Class).

Yep, I know. I haven't done a side-by-side comparison with PCA Racing GCR's because there basically are NO PCA events around here! Well, maybe 3 a year within sane driving distance. Not worth building a car for.

POC rules are pretty "detailed" in terms of assessing each and every mod that can be made to a car. They also have a lot of classes for short and long track TT events; even the cup races have 11 classes now I think and some of those are divided further by tire type (DOT vs slick). Obviously, compared to SCCA etc., the POC GCR's are completely Porsche-centric and so they specifically cover all the usual "tricks" anybody has ever tried before. Basically any mod having a performance impact is dinged on a points scale. Safety or comfort mods are "free", but not much else. Your car year + model combined with your "X" points put you into a certain class, period. Displacement is only one line on a several page list...but it is an "expensive" mod.

I am already taking a points hit for the non-stock cams and pistons/compression, so going further down that road has no classification impact. There is virtually nothing else left I can do to this car and stay out of the classes where I don't want to be (yet). Just further tuning/escalation of what I already have.

Another reason that I'm leaning towards sticking with this carb'd factory -6 starting point is to give me a little more flexibility to run HSR, VARA, SCCA or whatever, if I feel like it. Obviously sticking a 3.0 Tec-III injected motor or something like that would completely knock me out of eligibility for the vintage-oriented groups.

I hear you on the technological monsters.

I think I like the PCA's way better, but who knows, probably would be similar when you get down to it. GT classes are free for suspension and body basically as long as the shock towers & pickup points are in the factory location. Motors must be in a porsche case, same with trannies, free inside of each.

Chris,

Which BA book do you have ?? He produced two of them. The first one has been out of print for several years and has more of a blue cover. The second edition has a more colorful cover with late model cars on lifts.


The first edition had more early car related stuff. The second edition was a update giving up the later cars info.



B

Brad, I am not sure (it's in the garage at home) but it sounds like the 2nd Ed based on the cover.

I'm not saying the BA book doesn't have some really useful reference data and cool pics -- (it does) -- but it's not like it gives you the "perfect formula" or a detailed shopping list for any particular killer setup. Plus obviously it is up to the reader to find out where the hell to get some of the obscure parts he mentions, i.e., Mahle competition p&c sets and so forth. I know that Bruce's common practice is to refer readers (of his mag columns) to various shops as opposed to answering questions in extreme detail for the DIY types. If you're gonna have to call call Andial or Jerry Woods or Competition Engineering anyway to get the real scoop, then the book isn't that much help, eh?

for this, the Pelican Wayne book is much better.

use them together

Anderson's book in much more interesting when you have a motor spread all over the garage. The level of
comittment rises a tad

I'm not sure about " ultimate tweaks" ...those usually cost a bunch of money, but there are a few that would add some power to a 2.2L S.

Decreasing windage losses in the crankcase is almost free....but requires a tear down.

Nikasil Cylinders are worth some ponies over Brial. Better cooling, also.

A compression rise would have to be fairly dramatic to be felt...it's 9.8 :1 already, 11:1 (and up) would be gud, but twin plugs are needed...along with race gas.

Anderson's air deflector mods add cooling for free.

Racing valve springs are an investment in engine longevity.

Most ultimate stuff, requires spinning the motor to elevated levels. They become peaky....then you need gears to keep it in the power range. The stuff above
adds power (or longevity), but not rpms.

Good point about the compression JP. Not a lot of bang for the buck unless I happened to need new pistons anyway, which I don't (AFAIK).

I suppose I should focus on getting the thing to rev & breathe better: heads, trick cams, valve springs, and careful dyno tuning. If it really still has the stock -6 ports & valves then there could be gobs of potential here.

I already have short gears so keeping the revs up is not a problem; but I can't afford what it would take to really rev high. A 7200 redline is OK by me as long as it gets there quickly and doesn't blow up mid-season...

I think taking a bunch more weight out of the car is actually my next immediate step. There's still 100+ lbs to drop, and that is work I can do myself.