so, becuse i only buy shi*t, or i'm stupid, or i don't deserve people watching out for me, or i could go on...

we installed the (completely) rebuilt motor (including align bore & complete case work to fix things like tin screws broken off in the case, blah, blah) back in the car, and i discovered a problem.

the bolt that holds the screen/plate was broken and a part of the bolt was lodged in the nut that holds and seals the plate to the case. the p.o. had a heavy gauge steel plate rigged to hold the screen/plate in position, and it was fit on the engine using the case bolts.

you'd think the machinest would fix that right?

nope.

thousands of dollars.

months of time.

now i get to rig it just like before, of tear it completely apart again.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

what do you guy's think about somehow threading the remaining part of the stud and adding a sleeve to extend it. then put a bolt on to the sleeve.

??

i was just about to say..............
i am not that familiar with the bold, but if there are any threads on it, you could slide a piece through the hole and seal it.
have you ever hung a light fixture? the threaded bolt concept would be the same.

or perhaps you could have a machine shop machine you a new plate with a raised threaded portion.

there aren't any threads left. it's sheared at the end of the threads. the oil pickup is there and i don't think i could add thread unless i removed part of the pickup (i know, i can't do that).

jb weld a sleeve on to it?

can you weld a nut on the end and remove the bolt then put in a new one? Just my 1/2 cents worth. rich

I guess I'm confused here. What exactly happened? Did the motor come back from the shop that way? If so, the shop has got to fix it on thier dime. If it sheared while you were installing the sump, then yeah, it's gonna be a PITA to fix right. If there are any threads left, you could have a sleeve machined to fit over the threded end of the bolt, and open up the bore of the sump plate to clear the sleeve.

Yeah, that blows.

Hmmm, don't know. Maybe if you drop that sump plate, there might be room to spin a die over the bolt end and cut some new threads and then get a sleeve over it. I wouldn't JB weld it though...

I feel your pain...

-Josh2

That bolt goes all the way up into the engine case, and is captured internally. replacing the bolt is usually a case-splitting affair.

-Josh2

yup, that's what ticks me off so much.

i knew there was a problem when i saw the rig-job done by the p.o.

i didn't specifically point it out to my machineist figuring he's spec everything... it's a case of me not being thorough and having "all" the answers so nobody else has to think (or do their job with enough pride to cover for a guy who doesn't know "everything", but knows enough to write a good check).
...of course if i knew everything, i'd just f*cking do it myself.

So you bought the motor from the P.O. and then handed it to your machinist, and he didn't do anything about the sheared bolt? His bad. Any self-respecting machinist SHOULD have at the very least called you and asked you about it, or just replaced the thing. It's practically a trivial task once the motor's cracked open.

Give the machinist a call and ask him. Really, he (or she) should have seen that and noted it. A sheared bolt is generally not something that belongs in an engine case...

-Josh2

I agree, the machinist should have caught that.

That's one issue. But from a strictly mechanical side, couldn't you just weld a threaded stud onto that to extend it an inch? Or weld a sleeve onto that, and either screw in or weld a threaded stud into the sleeve?

If you could thread it, you could screw a sleeve onto it. But I'm not sure how you'd thread that in the spot it's in. It would be hard to get a die on it.

The bolt is held in with a small bolt thru the case. It's like an eye bolt, pinched

into a notch cut out of one of the cam bearing towers. I have never tried it but

you might want to check it out. Maybe if you remove the small retaining bolt that

runs perpindicular to the broken bolt, If the "eye" part will fit thru the hole in the

oil pickup you could get lucky. Pull it out and put a new one in. Good Luck.

Yeah, slipping that bolt out might be possible. But then again, it's still a PITA. I'd call the machinist first and foremost though. Why mess it up before the machinist can get a chance to fix their oversight?

-Josh2

The bolt and the pickup are one piece braised together. No luck there.

My idea is to drill and tap into the broken off end. Then use a smaller bolt and a washer to hole the sump cover in place.

Lemme get this straight. You gave the "machinist" a long block and he "rebuilt" it? He didn't even get the old gasket off the sump mating surface! Or did you give him a box of parts and tell him to rebuild it? Or maybe he did the machine work (which usually includes cleaning the parts!) and you assembled it. Whatever happened, the broken stud is part of the oil pickup assembly, which is bloted to the windage tray, and it's NOT part of the case. It can't be removed without disassembling the engine. I would be happy to provide you with an unbroken oil pickup assembly. I would certainly suspect the quality of the work you were charged for, and would certainly question the skliis and knowledge of the "machinist" involved. Furthermore, there are plenty of us here on the list who could have done the work for you, or at least guided you through the process. The Cap'n

Here's what it looks like up inside.

After looking at how small that bolt is you'd have to use a very small bolt to make my idea work. Maybe still worth a try since the only other option is taking the engine apart.

Also, the tub surrounding the bolt is where the oil flows. You really don't want to reduce that with a sleeve or the like.

There are a few ways you could go about this. Either way there is some welding and work to be done.
One way is you could take a die and grind the od until it fits thru that hole. Weld a long socket to the die if it will weld. Before you cut threads put some shaving cream in the hole to catch any metal, you can vacuum it out when your done. Then cut a few threads on the short bolt. Then weld a small sleeve to the end of a bolt or stud.
If you try to weld a stud to the bolt itself you could burn up the broken bolt or have a crooked stud sticking out unless you jig it up correctly. A tig welder might work if you were to attempt that. There is not a lot of room there to work with though.

McMark has the other method I was going to suggest. Just make sure you use a very sharp center punch to start your pilot hole before you drill it. Wouldn't hurt to grind the bolt a little flatter on the end so you can have a good flat surface to work with.

So I was thinking about this...

One could possibly weld an extension onto the stud. The problem is that if any of the current flows through the bearings... YOUR TOAST.

Therefore one of the electrodes would need to placed on the pickup itself. And not the block. Cause you really can't tell where least path of resisitance is going to be internally in the block. Gotta cover your butt on that....

And ya ain't got much room to do so... yet with the right guy welding it with a tig... it's possible (assuming you have enough room to work) And none of the welding slag falls into the block

I have seen aircraft guys and indy car guys do this kind of welding impeccably.

Me::::::: I would just fuch it up........

The other scenario is that you MIGHT be able to direct weld on a threaded extension directly to the existing broken stud. Whereas the new threaded section acts like the electrode and welds itself to the broken stud. I have seen it done at oil refinerys back in the day.
Then again... Those guys know how and do it everyday.

All of the above is a crap shoot.... Cause if ya lose oil pressure... You B screwed..

If it were mine... I would take it apart. Do it right... Do it once... And be done with it.

A good question to ask yourself is the following. If this was YOUR clients engine... And you were liable for the work... What would you do???

That almost always answers my questions as to what quality of work I am willing to do...... For myself as well as others.....

Twystd1

stop the bleeding. fix this problem with your brand new engine correctly. i know your pain.

k

Bud that problem ain't schmit! What you would want to do, and its easy as pie, is just extend the existing bolt with a match thread bolt piece. The trick is to bevel the piece you will weld to the existing bolt into a point. Use a flux core mig wire like 035 and then just tack it in place. Line it up to where it seems to go and verify with the cover for alignment. Weld a little bit more and check again. Once tacked in three directions, just weld up the bevel until flush with the shank and avoid having to grind or Dremel any weld since this would be a real biotch. Easy job bro. Make sure the weld is not where the threads should be for the nut so it dosen't shank out before the cover is on tight.

When all else fails, weld it!

thanks to all of you on this.
the machinist is coming to my place tomorrow to assess.
cap'n:
i gave him the shortblock, and heads and the new jugs/pistons etc. he was my assembler. i did pull the screen and the p.o.'s rig job.
i didn't point out the issue.

i personally want it fixed right, even if i have to pay for it.

unfortunately, i only had a second to type this, and i wanted to acnowledge the great advice.

i'll add more in about an hour.

thanks again! you guys are really helpful.

If you gave him an assembled short block and didn't tell you about the problem, then it's entirely on YOU. I probably would have noticed the problem, and notified you before I even turned a wrench ................... I feel your pain! BTW, just what DID he do for your money? The Cap'n

no, he got the partially dis-assembled engine and the new parts. he machined and assembled it. (i'm sure he did a great job, he has great skills and ref's)
the only thing he didn't do was the align bore, it went to another shop for that (i've got a stone in my hand, but i'm not throwing it).
i think i own part of the blame, there's no doubt. i should have pointed it out, and i didn't give him the plate because it wasn't clean, then it was put up waiting for the lump to come home.

if i have to pull it again, then i have to.

I don't for the life of me understand why you can't drill that out.

Look at the picture, Gint. There's nothing to drill out. It's a long stud ending in a banjo fitting. The banjo ring goes around the case through bolt, which goes through one of the cam bearing saddles. Mishandling the job can break the cam. The Cap'n

OK, he broke down the case, did his thing, he still had to have the oil pickup to put it together. I have yet to see a T4 case that needed an align bore, but they must exist. He put in a part that he didn't inspect and verify it's functionality. Bad move on his part. He's either inexperienced in T4 motors, or he's damn sloppy.
All conjecture and creativity aside, the motor's gotta come back apart, meaning more cleaning and assorted BS. The Cap'n

ok Cap'n, let me do what i do best and ask a stupid question ...

braking off that bolt means someone overtightened that nut, putting a lot of load on that through-bolt in the process ...

couldn't that already have messed up the cam-bearing/cam ???

no? Andy

I would suggest that before you do any maching (drillling) on the end of the screw you make a drill guide. This would be a rod that on one end has an ID the diameter of the OD of the bolt. It should fit snug. The other end is has precision drilled hole to guide any drill that you are planning to use. 2 of these may be needed. One for the center drill and another for the tap drill. Maybe a third to guide the tap. A repair stud with a threaded hole in the end could be coupled to the broken stud with a set screw acting as a stud. This process will keep the 2 (screw and repair piece) in proper alignment. The biggest probelm is the condition of the end of the broken stud. It should be very flat. If possible, I would want to silver solder the 2 together. Maybe with proper shielding this could be done to protect the case. Just my .02

Whatever you decide I wish you luck.

Mark

Thats such a low torque bolt that holds that cover on, I think you could tap or collar the thing and make it work for the summer, then send it back for the real fix during hibernation this winter. I am sure I could cob something together for you that will work till then.

it was broken before the rebuild, not fixed. i think the rebuild corrected any relative issues with the broken part.

i'll need a new pickup, but i don't see one at pelican.
can someone lead me to the part?

thanks
paul

I was always under the impression that that was the bolt that if torqued more than 9fps you could crack the case. Not a place I'd like to drill or fuss with too much. Good luck Lotus

of course your right, chappy. i'll work matt over for winter repairs after a summer of tooling around the lakes.

Paul,
I'm really sorry to hear this. I think the assembler should pull it apart and replace on his own time. This should have been noticed during the re-assembly at the latest as you included all the parts for the oil screen and cover. Fix it right once and be done with it...

Mr. PET has this to say about the pickup:
42 021 101 149 A OIL TUBEWITHCOVER PLATE W0 057 461 >>M EC0 000 001>> >>EA0 098 793 >>EB0 010 020 >>GA0 016 000 GC0 000 001>> 1 914-1,7/1,8V914-1,8/2,0

I think that means that it was used on all but the earliest of 1.7s--and my foggy memory is telling me Raby once mentioned early 1.7s having a different size tube on the pickup, requiring a different O-ring on the end that plugs into the case (not the end we saw in the original picture, the other end) and a different hole in the case to fit it.

Pelican says: $50 or so.

--DD

oops, i missed that through my tears cap'n! i'll take it.

thank you, dave.

You don't understand! Look at the picture. You drill it out, you're gonna be rethreading the air around the bolt! There's NOTHING to rethread! The Cap'n

Since you probably have a lot of time and ca$h invested in this - even though it sucks - I'd say you'd be happier in the long run if you split the case and put a new one in....

Just my 2c.

I was refering to making an extension to the bolt by drilling and the tapping the broken bolt and drilling and taping the extension part which has an external thread. Holding the two together with a stud. A set screw could be used as a stud. Some form of epoxy like locktite green or high temp epoxy to keep them together.

Mark

as tempting as the repair methods sound, I say bring it back to the machinist, show him the problem, gauge his reaction. If he appolagizes and tell you he will gladly take care of this, leave the motor, if he shuffles around the tear down and doesn't want to tackle it, take the motor and run. You can always get some of your money back if you need to hire someone else to replace the part correctly. Sux, but reality sometimes does.