I have been perve/converted to this FI system; at least mentally. I was going to go dual Webers but this seems to have more adjustibility over the whole RPM range if I'm not mistaking. Does anyone have the list of parts including the intakes required, venders ect... for the conversion? I have a single Progressive and you must all feel sorry for me right? Hey it came with the car from the past owner. I wanna rebuild my engine Jake Style and get this conversion hooked up with the present stock one. I need all the help I can get. Did I mention the single sorry assed Progressive Weber? Don't ya feel sorry for me? THNX!


Regurgitation requested.

For intake you need the stock D-jet intake, TB, injectors, pump, reg, plumbing, aircleaner etc.

Then you need the FI... now MS is way cheaper IF you build the system yourself, I've checked out the prices of the built MS systems ( http://diyautotune.com/ ) and at best (I'm talking about a complete system) you're only saving about $300 over the same SDS system ( sdsefi.com )

If you're real good at DIY electronics and programming get a MS kit.
If you get your beans and frank caught when you zip up... get the SDS.

http://www.megasquirt.info

....use the factory throttle body, plenum, runners, injectors and CHT, use new GM or Bosch air tempsensor and TPS

you "could" use the current single carb as a throttle body and put injectors in the factory location

msefi.com

Oh and don't forget you will need a wide band A/F meter.

You can fairly easily adapt a TPS from a subaru throttle body to fit the D-jet throttle body.


It's actually possible to use all the D-jet stuff - injectors, cht, etc....as other people have said.

One thing about the D-jet wiring is that the D-jet provides +12V to the injectors and has the other side go to a grounding point on the block. For MS - you need to locate the grounding point and wire it to +12v, and then the other side can go to the MS.

It's not impossible to mount the MS inside the D-jet brain box either. One of the bigger problems actually is getting everything environment-proof, and the D-jet box is reasonably good. You'll probably want to find some good quality connectors to get the stuff hooked up.

DIY Autotune (noted above) will sell you a complete kit, or a built unit. They'll also sell you wiring, connectors, and a wideband.

I agree with Mark that by the time you're looking at a built MS, you're not saving a lot of money anymore. If you don't have or like laptops, the SDS would be the better bet. MS requires a laptop (or a PC in your garage, and you can't tune on the road).

The cheapest route for you would be to weld in injector bungs (MSD sells them, if DIY doesn't) to the progressive manifold you have. The next cheapest would be to find a 2.0 D-Jet setup, sell the MPS and the ECU, and use the rest with MS as the ECU. The next up the scale (WAY up the scale) is a set of IDF-style throttle bodies. This gives the option of way more flow if you're going to seriously build the motor. The D-Jet parts will probably top out at the 180hp range, or a healthy 2270, and even then, you may have to bore the throttle body (DNHunt is the resource here, he's done this).

If you have the money, Jake sells a complete SDS system with throttle bodies, wiring, etc. This would be the easiest route, but it's quite costly.

This is the big one... bad connectors, wiring and soldering can/will turn MS into a nightmare. It's not that hard to do...mostly just time, but you need to be honest about your skills

Port Hope? I caught so many salmon in the Ganny my hip wadders still smell like row! I went to school at Sir Sandford Fleming in Lindsay Ont.; nice part of the world.

The SDS looks like a no brainer, me likes! Not to bad in $ also. thnx.

The next up the scale (WAY up the scale) is a set of IDF-style throttle bodies. This gives the option of way more flow if you're going to seriously build the motor.

The CB Perf. throttle bodies look great and for the price, I think it would solve alot of headachs. At 9Xauto they run for 1700$ and that isn't to bad considering all my FI stuff went with a 2L I just sold not to long ago. Good suggestion and considerable for shure.

Holy snap!

I live in the Ganaraska Forrest. I just have to walk if I want to do some fishing.

Are you coming to our show??? Click at the bottom of this post...

I got the skills but would rather spend, be lazy and save on time.


Got priorities ya know.

Zois just removed his CB Performance injection due to it not being able to be tuned all that well, they have 3 knobs, idle, accel. and WOT I believe, it's a total comprimise all the time with it...

I called the folks in Niagara on the Lake and mentioned a visit and show/ vacation. We all got excited. I hope to make it. If you could keep me in the loop it would really help since it's been 10 yrs since I've come back to the cold country. This would fall into the going to drive the teener soon after it gets painted in a few weeks kinda catagory. Its my first, drove it twice and can't wait to get it finished, well this mutation I mean.LOL

Really? I see why they push the "in cockpit" adjustability thing since it probably needs it all the time. Some Turbo dudes were pushing it as a way to keep the engine from running lean.

you "could" use the current single carb as a throttle body and put injectors in the factory location

msefi.com
[/quote]
Thats a good idea! I also have a T1 intake manifold for a progressive with dual ports. I can also weld the new injector bosses to each side, probably tig it. The intake has a single tub that attacheas to the carb therefore, all your saying is just put a butterlfy in it and perhaps a K&N mushroom on the top since the Weber would only be an air regulator persay! That would be a rad looking FI deal.

Am I on the right page here bud? Add an SDS, brain dead system with the sensors, and off to the blacktop we go!



Sounds pretty sharp!

I only had the programmer on my SDS for 2 weeks last year. I have not even installed it this year...it's sitting in my showcase.

Once you're done tuning you only really need to look at it once a year or if you change something.

So what costs are we looking at if you go MS and use existing 2.0 D-Jet parts?

If your injectors are in good shape, and you don't need a new engine wiring harness or fuel lines, then basically the MS kit ($150 more or less) plus some misc wiring bits (you'll need some high-power inline resistors for the D-Jet injectors) is the bare minimum.

If you don't want to solder the thing together, the cheapest pre-assembled unit is $240.

A wideband is VERY helpful, and those are about $200.

The real cost is spending loads of time on msefi.com learning how everything goes together, what exactly you want (there are several ECU variations), and how you want to do this. There are MANY avenues you can explore, including ignition as well as fuel.

If you're really on a budget, you can sell your working MPS for about $60 on Ebay to offset some cost.

Don't forget the wiring harness...its a significant part of the install. The D-Jet harness even if it were in serviceable conditions, cannot be used or adapted.

I beg to differ. The D-Jet wiring harness should be mostly usable. Certainly, you can use the air temp, CHT, and injector connections. The cold-start system can be left as is. The ECU connector would have to be chopped off.

It would be a better install if all new wiring was used, but we're talking minimum costs here.

if you want to learn about megasquirt, talk to my dad (dnhunt). we installed megasquirt on our car about three years ago, and it works well.

Gerry

i just realized that my dad had a website and it has a lot of information on megasquirt. here is the link

I thought about this very approach sometime ago and agreed with the initial concept, but with all due respect and only after significant research, I don't see how it is all practical or reasonable to reuse any original D-Jet harness for any PEFI application for at least these considerations:

* Virtually all original D-Jet harnesses are at the end of their service life. The casing is hardened, cracked and brittle and internal wires have wire insulation that is typically hardened and cracked, wire terminals are corroded and loose. The possibility for internal shorts is great. Why go to all the effort of a new ECU/programming if the circuitry or connections are dubious?

* The harness circuitry is substantially differently for the D-Jet system than PEFI and would require extensive modifications to work. If it could be made to work at all, there would not be much more than a few wires remaining of the original harness. For instance, D-Jet injectors have only a 1-wire control circuit each, the second wire goes to ground internally within the harness. PEFI requires two wires for each injector from the ECU and if the stock low-impedance injectors are used, 2 wires are needed at the ECU for each injector. The injector ground wires in the harness do not go to the ECU location, they are internal to the harness, so 4 additional wires would be needed for the injector circuits at a minimum.

* The 4-wires for the MPS could be abandoned, thats ok. They are too early in the harness to be useful for another purpose unless they were extended.

* The 2 CSV wires could be abandoned, one of which goes internally to the TTS and the CSV and TTS will likely be abandoned too.

* The simplest AAR setup is to use the stock AAR valve and circuitry, both of which are external to the D-Jet FI harness. This approach works, but it seems most 91 4owners want to use a new solenoid or stepper motor which requires more and bigger wires.

* The 3 trigger point wires could be abandoned, or extended and reused, if shielding is not required.

* Using the stock D-Jet harness implies that the new ECU will be in the stock location because of the existing harness length. I support that personally, but the ECU mfrs recommend a dry, cooler location out of the engine bay, so at the very least the harness would need to be extended. This might require soldering or multipin connectors to extend the existing harness length.

* The single TS2 and two TS1 wires could be reused as they are, I concur.

* The 4 TPS wires could potentially be reused, standard potentiometer TPSs only need 3 wires, but shielding will likely be required.

* A shielded coil wire will probably need to be added, but that could be external. This circuitry will vary with the triggering device...optical, crankfire or....What I am hearing is that triggering off the coil for digital electronics is not recommended and is likely to be problematic. An optical trigger like the Crane is about the least costly solution.

BUT, there are more significant issues to address.

I have been working with 2 EEs to develop an aftermarket PEFI harness specifically for the 914. We are in process, but its not complete yet. Both have spent substantial time looking at the various systems including MS and others. Both have concluded that certain wires need to be larger gage than stock and other wires need to be shielded or twisted pair. Apparently digital electronics are significantly more sensitve to cross-talk between adjacent circuits than the D-Jet system. After much discussion and research, they have concluded that its best to physically separate certain branches of the harness which by definition requires a different configuration of the harness compared to stock D-Jet. Also it has become apparent that stock grounding configuration which carries the ground through the 3-prong ground lug at the back of the engine and then the tranny cable is not at all sufficient. An enhanced FI ground system is required to assure reliable service.

So I count only a few wires that might be reused and even then only if the wires are serviceable, the rest of the harness substantially modified or replaced. For the reasons above, I would not bother trying to reuse an existing D-Jet harness.

Jeff, thanks for the info. I am going to setup my MS system soon and was thinking that the stock D-jet wiire harness would work. After reading your post I am going to order the aftermarket wire kit. Thank's

If you don't want to spend a lot of time learning about fuel injection and messing with the configuration, Megasquirt is not right for you. I can say through personal experience that it is a lot of work to do right.

I agree with what most have said. Megasquirt and Megasquirt-II are very versatile and powerful systems when it comes to fuel injection and ignition control.

Compared to other systems you get a lot of performance and bang for the buck. I believe it is better than most 2000$ to 3000$ systems out there. Since MS and MS-II are not designed for a single application the first step is to understand what you really want to do with it. Applications range from a simple piggy-pack setup to richen up the mixture all the way to a crank-fired EDIS setup with boost-controlled water injection and sequential fuel injection. On top of that the CAN bus allows communication with other modules (O2-sensor, transmission control, etc) Welcome to the modern world of car electronics.

The first downside is that you do have to understand how fuel injection and engine management works. If you don't you have to be willing to learn. There are tons of resources out there to read up on. It'll save you costly mistakes.

Second, you need to have all the right tools. Without a wideband O2-meter I don't see a way to properly tune an A/F map. Best case you leave HP and drivability on the table. Worst case you burn or blow up your engine.

That being said if you are savvy with a soldering iron it is fun to build it yourself. I have done the work on Mike's 356. We have had the advantage of having a base motor that already had the fuel injection (CB Performance) installed. It was pretty easy to "throw in" the MS-II. I got it to idle with two days of work.

The tougher part is to tune the system properly. After we got the 356 to start and idle we did some driving with me running the laptop and Mike at the wheel. We had the wideband hooked up and had the system to autotune the A/F map. Sure enough we broke down right in front of the cops on the ocean front.... and the laptop battery was nearly dead. The car wouldn't start for almost half and hour. Turned out Mike handiwork allowed the main ignition cable to short to the braided oil line killing the spark. Meanwhile I had screwed up the tuning values thinking that we had a fuel issue.

Those are the things you have do deal with. However, it already runs nicer than it ever did with the old Delco ECU. Next is to convert to crank-fired EDIS and make sure it runs properly with boost dialed in.

ingo

Great job on the link thank you for all of us.

Nice info fellas. I guess a brand new and improved harness is the ticket. Keep the info coming please.

In my opinion, one needs to learn and have a basic understanding of FI and engine management no matter what system they purchase and install, even a $5,000 MoTec will be as useless as a brick if one does not have a basic of FI and how each sensor and component reacts and is used.

So. The question is Jeff... when? when will you have a ready harness for us? Something that plugs into the MS setup?

I totally agree the stock harness' are dying a slow death. I'm amazed they have last this long.


B

Brad

One of the problems with MS as a kit with harness is the very versitility of the thing in the first place. Unless everyone is custom configured you end up right back with other PEFI. The beauty of MS is it's DIY and you can set it up the way you want. But, to get what you want out of it you have to learn about it and put it together with the stuff you want.

I love my setup with EDIS and I'd love to help someone put one together. But, if anyone wanted to do it for some profit you'd end up right up with the systems on the market pricewise.

Dave

Friends, greatness has no price.; If the Megasq system is the ticket, we can all benefit from it. Perhaps someone can just fashion a specific part as the next individual can also and we all can be part of the price/profit game. Some can weld good intakes, some can solder wires, others just have the proper data to enter into the system for a quick trial without failand others just have the ability to make this conglomeration of equippment work on paper. The question is, what can you do to make this a possibility?

A couple of beers latter and we are all brothers.

We are making good progress on it, the initial engineering work is mostly done, but it will be a few more months at least for prototyping and testing.

My view of an FI system for an automobile is that it should be durable in the long term without overkill. Many of the custom wiring jobs I have seen are more of a temporary nature and not reliable long term. Anyone going to the trouble of a PEFI conversion should expect trouble-free service of the install measured in multiple years, even decades, not months. That level of quality costs more money initially, but keeps you on the road and gets you there faster.

SDS provides a harness, a set of harnesses really, but its not complete in that the wires are not protected with casing and they do not provide the rubber D-Jet boots to weatherproof and provide stress relief to the connections and other issues encountered trying to adapt a universal harness to a specific car. I dont like how they install the injector resistors and other details, but it is probably the best beginning of any system on the market for a good harness.

The MS and Emerald harnesses are simply a bundle of wires pre-mounted to an ECU connector. They are not expensive but they also require lots of work to complete. Its not waterproof, not cased, not terminated with connectors and no consideration is given about how it mounts in the 914, because it is a universal harness. If the ECU is in the cabin, then the harness must penetrate through the firewall...so if the engine is dropped, one has to dismount every connection on the engine? It is an incomplete solution, there are better ways, but it only costs time and $.

The 914 PEFI harness I am developing will be durable and applicable to all or most aftermarket FI systems, and a solution specifically configured for the 914, with some degree of customization depending on owner preferences for triggering, cold air intake chices etc. They are more time consuming be overdone.

That's next....I have the complete EDIS and just waiting on the machinework for the crank sensor and the plug for the dizzy hole.....

I'm sure Jeff's harness will be an excellent part, based on what I've seen of his work. However, I agree with Dave Hunt that the market, esp. for MS buyers, will be vanishingly small. MS is all about DIY and inexpensive. It's not about premium products. Jeff's stuff is very much premium quality, and priced accordingly. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it just doesn't mesh with the MS crowd.

SDS provides a harness, which also limits the market for a harness of any quality level.

If Emerald or others start to make inroads, perhaps there will be more of a market for these high-quality harnesses.

Now, one way to have more of a market would be to provide more of a complete turnkey system, with a pre-programmed MS in a good case (perhaps hidden inside a D-Jet case), with a good harness, so the whole thing was pretty close to plug-and-play. THAT would probably sell well, as the people who didn't want to DIY will nearly always pay more for an easy to install system.

LINK sells a complete and proper Type I/IV specific wiring harness, price is about $950 I bought the cheaper unfinished wiring loom for $150....the wiring harness is the hardest part of the install I'd say....

I did roughly the exact same conversion that you are comtemplating.

I had dual weber 40s, thankfully they are SOLD.

The entire conversion cost me a bit over $1000. I built it all myself. I ripped out the entire fuel system, tank, lines, and started from scratch. I'm sure it payed off, i found some stuff that makes me want to .. but anyway.. check out this link for pics of my install:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/infinitelydig...57594124768996/

I bought all 2.0 parts (TB, injectors, plenum, runners, fuel rail, fuel pump) for about $150.

Regardless of which system you go with you NEED an Innovative LC-1 wideband O2. I bought all of my MS stuff and the wideband from DIYautotune, hell of a guy over there.

I bought their 12' single ended harness, crimped a connector on, built all the other harnesses, check out the pics. I haven't had a single connection issue yet.

Best of luck!

I've come to the same conclusion as well..my Innovate wide band is sitting on the desk at home waiting for the install.

Now if I can just find some dyno time someplace....

if you want to just replace either a stock system or upgrade, get one of the packaged units. SDS, Link, etc.

The MS system is for those that like to tinker and play, you will find that you flash your program just because there is an update. The nice thing about MS is that there is lots of support on the net and now with 914's. both stock and hot engines. I have had mine for about 4 years now. I still tinker with it. its for fun, and because I think that I can improve something. I have had some issues with getting the tuning just right. But then its a 80 by 103 big valve motor with soon to be lots of compression and not much vacuum at idle. Again I like to fool around with it. I also know that it is reliable enough to just drive if I want. it has never let me down.. The connectors are or could be an issue. I made one, then made another and I carry it with me just because if I don't , i might have a problem. both my ecu and relay box are inside under the passenger seat. if you like to work with electronics, don't have a big ego and don't mind asking questions, ms might be right for you.....

Personally I don't see a need for dyno time. Plug in your desired AFR value into the table, click autotune and let it tune the VE for you. Datalog and view your results. Simple as that. The only thing a dyno would give you is hp/tq figures. I would get it tuned first on the street, then if desired stick it on a dyno for the last 5%.

Of course if you are putting out 600+whp then it would be difficult to datalog a pull run on the street, not to mention illegal. I certainly don't have that problem

Yarin, I really disagree with that statement. Tuning with a wideband allows you to shoot for a target air fuel ratio. No doubt A/F ratio corrolates with engine performance but it supposes 3 assumptions. First, that your WBO2 sensor is acurate, second that the variables ( reporting delay, tuning algorythm, closed loop corrections) in the tuning are minimal or correct, and third and most important, that the arbitrary A/F ratio you pick is the best for the performance you desire. These are big assumptions and the only measure you have on the road is how your butt interprets the results. The dyno gives you a reliable quantitative measure of how effective your tuning is. Do your best but, I would place a bet that a good tuner with a dyno can wring more performance out of your system.

Dave

Dave, Fair statement. Depends on how far the user wants to go. Innovative's WBO2 sensors have been foudn to be dead accurate when compared to those used on a dyno. Either system will report incorrectly if there is an airleak upstream of the sensor. There are many assumptions which define successful self-tuning. My goal was to get the engine "Safely" tuned, then move onto tuning for power. A good tuner can definitely get more out of any standalone engine management system due to the inherant concept that you are tuning for optimum power as supported by a safe AFR.

Cool info fellows. I guess a good harness and it could be done for 1K right?