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cnavarro
You could always make a billet oil pump duplicate of the original pump. I know the guys at R&R that I work with could easily make a pump, but it most definately will be more than a rebuilt gex unit. R&R makes billet dry sump pumps, so they know how to do it. You could always run an external dry sump pump with a belt for the torque convertor, but I have never been too keen on belt driven oil pumps :-)
cnavarro
And about the special oil tank. Why not just use a type 1 autostick atf resevior? I'm sure that would be way cheaper than fabbing a new oil tank or finding an autostick oil tank. Same with the vacuum tank...
Eric_Shea
QUOTE
Why is there a body colored sway bar under the car?


That's a rare Koni bar...
grasshopper
jeez, I dont even have to be here and you guys are talking about it. This really sounds like it could work. About buying a cheap 911....uhh.. no...the parts cars go for like two grand...I need that money for the paint... About the type 3 oil pump....Hmmm... it really sounds like it could work.... Hey geoff, Thanks, I'll give them a call and see if they have one. I'll also check into GEX to see if I can get one of those pumps. How much did yours cost?? You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit? So I could use the torque convertor straight off a 911 sporto? Right now, it seems the only problem we would have with doing a sport would be the oil pump..which you guys seem to have figured out. THIS IS GOING TO WORK!!!!!!!
bondo
Just to keep things interesting... what about a tiptronic out of a boxster or cayman? No diff flipping needed!
grasshopper
more complicated...mating CV's figuring out how to adapt it to a T4, and I dont know anything about a tiptronic... biggrin.gif
Bleyseng
GEX has the Autostick oil pumps for $249 each!

maybe SLITS has one laying around in that pile o parts....
Mueller
QUOTE(grasshopper @ Jul 31 2006, 11:32 AM) *

You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?


the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake biggrin.gif


the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???
SirAndy
QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Jul 30 2006, 10:38 PM) *

Great shot Jeff clap56.gif This shows the placement of the tranny farther back than stock (axles are angled back towards rear of car)

dude ... screwy.gif

the car is obviously on a lift, so what you see is the axles hanging down!
wink.gif Andy
Brad Roberts
And you dont think "I" know what they look like hanging down from a lift?

They dont angle BACK when in full droop.

I promise that the centerline of the axles is farther back!

Here is why:

The intermediate plate is MUCH thinner allowing the case to move back.

I also took into consideration the angle of the shot taken.


B
Cap'n Krusty
Let's clear up some things. The T4/T2 flex plate has holes for 3 bolts, the sporto torque converter needs 4. The ring gear, I think we decided long ago, probably can't be flipped because of things happening on top of the housing. That particular obstacle MAY be able to be overcome, however. The T3 oil pump is a single stage pump, NOT a piggyback unit, because the T3 was available with either a manual or a full auto tranny. Never with a semi auto. The T1 autostick pump is made to pump ATF and the TC uses that. I seriously doubt you could run motor oil in it. The double pump would probably fit behind the shroud, although you might have to clearance the shroud a bit. After all, there's enough room in there to R&R the pump with the shroud in place, with only a little selective grinding of a couple of ribs. The T1 autostick has thrust problems with the rear manishaft and pinion bearings, so it's out. The mysterious tank mentioned earlier is a vacuum reservoir, and is a necessary part of the system. One MAJOR challenge might be rigging the vacuum valve assembly to the throttle linkage, although I'm sure it could be done.

All things considered, the tranny from an Audi Fox or 4000 might be the way to go. The earlier ones don't have an external cooler or any electronics, and were made for
about a hundred horsepower. The linkage is via cable, and some may even use a vacuum modulator. Adapters should be readily available, and the CV joints should bolt up. Might need to alter the length of the axles, as they're not symmetrical. . I have a good tranny I would sell really cheap, BTW. The Cap'n
Bleyseng
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 31 2006, 12:30 PM) *

QUOTE(grasshopper @ Jul 31 2006, 11:32 AM) *

You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?


the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake biggrin.gif


the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???


Type 3's have a fan setup just like type 4's.... blink.gif
Cap'n Krusty
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Jul 31 2006, 01:06 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 31 2006, 12:30 PM) *

QUOTE(grasshopper @ Jul 31 2006, 11:32 AM) *

You said you adapted a T3 oil pump, I'm a little confused...where does it fit?


the same place the oil pump fits on the Type IV motor.....what you might run into is that the fan housing might hit the pump....not sure how the fans are on the T3....I bet it would work fine with a DTM fan from Jake biggrin.gif


the oil pump is a minor detail compared to whether or not you can flip the ring gear on the sporto....does anyone know if the case on the sportos are alum, or mag???


Type 3's have a fan setup just like type 4's.... blink.gif


Not even close. Yes, there's a fan. I have a fan in my Jetta, too, and a shroud. The T3 fan and housing are just as far removed from a T4 as the one in the Jetta, the one in a 911, and the one in a T1. The Cap'n
Bleyseng
Ok, I'll clarify.

Both have a crank mounted fan in a front mounted housing. Oil pump is buried behind the housing on both of them.

Are they interchangable? hell no, but the oil pump from a type 3 Autostick should fit fine behind a type 4 fan housing.
cnavarro
Let's get one thing straight, the type 3 never had a sportomatic oil pump - the type 3's were all fully automatic and the atf pump is integral to the transmission. I guess another place to look would be an NSU, since Audi actually invented the autostick/sportomatic and it was first used on an NSU.

Since we're also discussing alternative transmission, how about variomatic from a Daf that has only one forward and reverse gear :-)
grasshopper
I'm completely confused....I learn by taking things apart and actually seeing them...It's impossible for me to learn by words...got any pics?? Like of the pump, the torque convertor... the options I have..audi, T3..
JPB
Alot of yinging and yanging here. Cool project bro and one I'd like to be part of. Like I said, I might drop by shortly and see how things are going. Its kinda cool to try to get your mom to drive a Teener. Looks like you have a huge mountain to climb and alot of different directions to go.

beer.gif Gluck!
grasshopper
maybe... I am back in Georgia now, but I will be back in Virginia next summer, and that is where I will be doing this. So if you want to drop by next summer that would be awsome.
Mueller
QUOTE(grasshopper @ Jul 31 2006, 03:20 PM) *

I'm completely confused....I learn by taking things apart and actually seeing them...It's impossible for me to learn by words...got any pics?? Like of the pump, the torque convertor... the options I have..audi, T3..


you need to figure out a few things 1st....


can you flip the ring gear from a 911 sporto??

> if yes > proceed with sporto related items

> if no > will a fully automatic transmission suffice??

> if yes > find one that'll work (like the audi boxes mentioned)

>if no > end of project

without knowing the 1st question above, you are just going to get more and more confused and this thread is a waste of time and effort until you know the answer...
grasshopper
I will find out if I can flip the ring gear. Will a full auto work?? Maybe..my mom kind of liked the Idea of a sporto..but I'll ask about a full auto... end of project?? NO. I wont stop until I find something that will work.
Mueller
QUOTE(grasshopper @ Jul 31 2006, 03:30 PM) *

I will find out if I can flip the ring gear. Will a full auto work?? Maybe..my mom kind of liked the Idea of a sporto..but I'll ask about a full auto... end of project?? NO. I wont stop until I find something that will work.



of course a full auto will work, it's been done before (there are pictures somewhere on here, car was on eBay a few years back), what I meant was will it work for you as in is it something your mom would want???
grasshopper
I was just quoting you on that...She said if we couldn't make it work that she would take a full auto....
Mueller
You need an EKS from RUF smiley_notworthy.gif

it's a "modern" version of the sporto burnout.gif


as copied from Bruce Andersons site:


QUOTE

When we were at Ruf's we drove their second 993 BTR prototype, which has his EKS (Electronische Kupplung System) or in plain English an Electronic Clutch System. Alois Ruf had told me about this system almost two years ago in January 1993 when we met at the Porsche clubs Thunder Tech in Tampa Florida. At the time he was very enthusiastic about the system and I must admit I was not overly impressed with the concept, because I found myself lumping it together with the Sportomatic and Tiptronic transmission of Porsche.

The Ruf cars with the EKS have no clutch pedal and are similar in operation to the transmissions used in the modern Formula 1 cars. The clutch operation is controlled by electronic signals from a computer controlling hydraulic control circuits. The system responds to several different sensors: a gas pedal sensor for throttle position, a torque sensor in the gearshift lever so that it knows when you want to shift, and engine and car speed sensors. From the signals from these different sensors the EKS computer decides when and how to engage or disengage the rather conventional single plate clutch through a hydraulic actuator that moves the clutch throw out bearing. The EKS system is manufactured by the Sachs company and Ruf was their first customer and has helped Sachs to develop the system. Sachs wanted a small manufacture to work with so that they could gain practical experience with the system before they went after a mass market. Saab will be the first large volume manufacture to use the EKS type system in a volume production car in the 1995 model year. Saab will use the system in the Saab 900SE turbo and they will call their version of the clutchless EKS car the Sensonic. I guess they are calling their version the Sensonic because it senses when you want to shift, and the systems do indeed do just that. I am not sure about the sonic part.

I had not really expected to be impressed with this system or this car using the system because I have already had some clutchless Porsche experience with both the Porsche Sportomatic and the Porsche Tiptronic. My wife had a 911 Sportomatic for about ten years in the seventies and early eighties and I really expected this to be more of the same. I have always felt that these clutchless transmissions like the Sportomatic and the Tiptronic serve a purpose and are nice to drive, but are usually difficult to defend in a macho conversation. Incidentally speaking of the Porsche Tiptronic the newest version is called Tiptronic S and has the shift controls on the steering wheel like some of the Formula 1 cars do, but it is still an automatic transmission with a torque converter. The new Porsche Tiptronic S has two rocker switches for shifting, one on each side of the top spokes on the steering wheel. To shift up you push upwards on either of the switches (labeled "+") to engage the next higher gear and to shift down you push downwards on the button (labeled "-") for downshifts. All of this is aimed at adding to the enjoyment of driving a Porsche. These steering wheel controls are supplemental to the Tiptronic's standard dual-range console. And Porsche says that this update can be retrofitted to the 1994 version of the 993 as well.

After I drove the Ruf 993 prototype with the EKS I was so impressed with the operation of this combination of an automatic clutch and a manual six-speed transmission that I would now be willing to try to defend it in one of those macho conversations. You can bet that if I can afford it that I will try one in the "Project 911" that I am building. You loose absolutely no performance, yet you don't have to bother with a clutch. Its operation is computer controlled and it is definitely more consistent than most drivers and I would guess a lot smarter than some, including me. I honestly didn't miss the clutch pedal at all and only poked at the clutchless floor once and that was one time when I pulled to a stop to photograph one of the cars.

The Ruf EKS clutch system has been available since the Spring of 1992. Sixty EKS cars have been built and sold already and most of the cars that Ruf is building now are delivered with this option. Porsche also offers the EKS clutch system and has already built 20 3.6 911 Turbos with the EKS clutch system using their own five-speed transmissions. Porsche says that unfortunately this system will not be available for cars in the US because it has not been approved and they are concerned about product liability in the US market. Ruf will make his cars available here in the US with the EKS clutch and don't count this option out.

Most people who try any of the Porches which don't have a clutch pedal will say things like "I would consider one if I was going to do any serious city driving in a Porsche on a daily basis" But it seems even the drivers who do have to drive in heavy traffic on a daily basis never do opt for the clutchless driving, I think that it must just be that macho thing. The car that Stephan Roser, who works for Ruf, drives to work is a red Ruf RCT with the EKS clutch system and the Ruf six-speed transmission. Stefan Roser says that he loves it and he can make it talk. He commutes From his home in Stuttgart to Pfaffenhausen each day which is about 170 km (105 miles) each way and makes the trip in a little over an hour from door to door. He said that he has let a lot of race drivers drive the cars with EKS and they have all said that they like them and would like a car with that system for their own street use.

There are no losses through a torque converter like there was with the Sportomatic and with the more contemporary Tiptronic automatic transmission because the EKS uses a clutch and does not have a torque converter. Even with the Tiptronic S's new trick steering wheel shift mechanism, I would still rather have Ruf's EKS system than the Tiptronic. The performance is improved because there is no clutch lag time. With the EKS you have both the performance and the fuel economy of the manual transmission. But you have the advantage of being able to shift as fast as you can move your hand and you don't have to worry about coordinating that with the movement of your left foot.

One thing that I particularly like about Ruf's EKS installation was the vertically reading indicator in the lower part of the speedometer which tells you which gear you are in. I still have a little trouble in cars with six speed transmissions when I am just cruising along talking with my passenger I forget what gear I am in and this shift indicator is a great help for this.

The EKS system is sophisticated and there are a number of potential advantages over a conventional clutch. The clutch engagement is more precise than we can do by ourselves, so we will have less clutch wear. You cannot abuse the clutch as a lazy driver might with a normal foot activated clutch. If you miss a shift the computer will protect the engine by not engaging the clutch. The EKS system provides all of the advantages of being able to enjoy shifting gears without a clutch pedal in stop-and-go traffic or in high speed conditions. It is sporty yet comfortable, with flawless clutch engagement.

You can start out in first or second gear, but the computer wont let you start out in third. If you miss a shift on a down shift the will not engage, so the EKS will save you and your engine from yourself.

Bleyseng
heck, lookin at the bus manual the auto tranny has a diff that looks like it could be flipped.. anyone torn one apart???? Capt????

So you think the Audi Fox/ VW Dasher auto might work?? tons of those around.
jk76.914
I pointed that out 13 posts ago. biggrin.gif The manual even states which side to put the ring gear on, which sure does imply it can go either way....

Good question- has anybody tried it?
WildWheeler
Hey Gang,

Just wanted to add my two cents as I am following this post very closely.
I am extremely interested in finding an automatic solution that won't break the bank.
I am in a wheelchair and require hand controls, so the only option for me is an auto or semi auto.
I owned two 914's before my accident and would really like to get another real soon.

Please keep this conversation going!

Thank you Grasshopper for trying to make this work.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

Cheers,
Scott
grasshopper
Wow, more of an inspiration to get this done. I WILL DO THIS FOR YOU. You WILL be able to drive a 914 again. On the other hand, IM SO FUCHING CONFUSED!!!!!
Bleyseng
QUOTE(jk76.914 @ Jul 31 2006, 07:48 PM) *

I pointed that out 13 posts ago. biggrin.gif The manual even states which side to put the ring gear on, which sure does imply it can go either way....

Good question- has anybody tried it?


yep, "Insert the differential assembly into hte transmission case. The ring gear goes on the left side and must be in mesh with the drive pinion."

Case in pics looks like the diff can go either way.
swood
QUOTE(JPB @ Jul 31 2006, 03:23 PM) *

Alot of yinging and yanging here. Cool project bro and one I'd like to be part of. Like I said, I might drop by shortly and see how things are going. Its kinda cool to try to get your mom to drive a Teener. Looks like you have a huge mountain to climb and alot of different directions to go.

beer.gif Gluck!



blink.gif
type47
i just noticed in one of my repair manuals for the 914 that there looks like alot of info that you might find useful in one of the chapters. the manual is a "Lash" which is a newer version, i think, of the old Clymer manual
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