I'm a race engine customer, too..... and my car is finally almost ready for the real engine..... Jake and I have been working together to get the car (and me) ready for the real power plant. It's been over 2 years since Jake accepted my deposit and we signed the contract. Most of you will suggest that's crazy, but I'm here to tell you, it's a good thing I didn't have the real engine. I'm sure I wouldn't have blown it to smithereens along with a wad of cash.

I've had many issues sorting this car and Jake has helped with the engine related issues every chance he gets. I've built 2 back-up engines on the cheap using his parts and really they have enough power allow me to sort the car.

The engine is nearing completion now and I'm nearly ready for it, but I'll be very careful and speak to Jake many times to get it right. We're even talking about running the first race on the new engine near his place in the spring.

The point is a real race engine (to run up front in SCCA production) takes a lot of time, a lot of development and a lot of money. Most of us don't have the stomach for it. But, most of us don't need a real race engine and can live with a kit engine or even a Subaru. There really aren't that many people who need a race engine that fully exploits the rules. More often than not more time can be found with the driver.... and I am no exception to this.

My advice is: figure out what kind of person you are and how you want to spend your time and money. There will be an engine option that suits your needs, and it may not be from Jake. Jake sells quality stuff and charges appropriately for it.

Hey, Derek.... sorry to hijack your thread.....

Did you look in Jake's store? You can at least get an idea of costs and power levels.

Type4Store - Engine Kits

Kevin,
That pretty much says it all.

as a paying production engine customer your experience with me and the comments that it has generated should speak volumes to those that may have had any doubts previously.

Kevin and I have ben working for over 2 years on this engine project, but I refused to let him make a mistake. He was referred to me by another one of my successful production racers that went 3 solid years with my engine before he ever had a single mechanical issue.

Kevin is a die hard, true racer that never lets the past cloud his thoughts for the future or even the present. He is the kind of guy that I love to support.

BTW_ len and I tore the heads off of Kevins old patchwork engine in the paddock last year at the runoffs trying to make him go faster- that wasn't my engine, or Len's heads but he was still our racer and we worked damn near everyday on his engine when he didn't even ask us to.

Thats the kind of support I give to those that believe in me.

Thanks Kevin.

No offense was taken. I merely wanted to point out that you have already seen the results of such failures/shortcomings firsthand and you know enough to avoid them in the future.

Hey lol sorry I haven't read this in a while. Kind of went all screwy. I have looked at Raby motors for a while and I believe that they are dang good. I think I will take Joe's advice and just learn to drive it and tweak out the suspension. My engine right now runs well enough to start and hasn't left me stranded yet. I'm always curious on what I can do and how much it costs and what not even though I don't plan on getting it. That is why I didn't want to call or email Jake because I understand that he is busy. I will for sure look at his store and poke around a bit. I'm interested in the Subaru engine or a built 2.0L but I think it will be a good while from now. I apologize for starting a thread that blew out like this but it has cleared a few things up for me.... well most of the replies were helpful for me lol. Anyways have fun!

Derek

Derek,
Lets start from scratch:
what are you doing with the car??? How much power do you want?

We are heading in the right direction with the rods I'm getting from you.
I haven't calculated 2098 cc against the rules yet but should be somewhere around mid 1700's

Oh can we blame this whole thread on the new guy?
Derek it's all YOUR fault for enabling the massive ego's here.

Just kidding. Hey when are you going to be ready to fix your shifter I'll run over and lend a hand.

Whoa - whoa - whoa... Does Grant have a history of going after Jake? Not sure I have seen that. Lets try and remember that this IS a forum. That means that everyone is entitled to an opinion. I have met Grant personally and I know for a fact that he is soft spoken, seems humble, and in no way qualifies for the label "asswipe". He owns a six. He has owned Type 4 cars as well. That pretty much quailifies him for an opinion and, once again as this is a forum his opinion does not get "old".

I have also met Jake, been a customer and I will defend Jake's right to his opinion as well. Jake has a strong personality. He is marketing at the same time he informs. That is going to rub some the wrong way and while they should just ignore him if they don't like it, some tend to speak up.

I don't see Grant as dissing or going after Jake in what he wrote. He is at least in partial agreement.

As for this pissing war, Jake is right. If you're going to put my name on the side of anything even a bus, you had better have all your ducks marching in the same cadence. The man's name is all he has in the end...

So now go ahead, go after me for pointing these things out... That seems to be
the mood of the day...

Thanks Robby
where did we meet?
I don't get out much!

Bugarama... I was with Dave Hunt and Gerry along with Martin Baker. I doubt you would remember me as you had quite a crowd of VW guys following your every word after that blast down the track.

Oh yeah- I remember you!

That was one wild ass day!

I bet it was... If you hadn't been on your way to remove the engine and sell it, Dave, Gerry, Martin, and I went out to eat after a short decompress at my house which is less than 10 miles away...

Ironically, the late summer Bugarama was this last weekend and they would not let the 914's in to the show area as guess what... In the opinion of the VW crowd the 914 is not a VW... Hmmm NARP and not a VW??? Life as a bastard child I guess...

I think you misread my post. I'm in agreement with you and Jake. Why do so many people have a hard time admitting to T4 short comings when compression ratios, etc come up to make the engine competitive for SCCA or Club racing? On this board its like talking about religion rather than an engine that was never designed to be used in competition. Jake is just being smart and keeping these ticking time bombs out of the hands of those who would surely torch a well built T4 race engine in quick order.

When you use the term NARP I presume that you mean "Not A Raby Person". ....Don't worry I won't be going to the T4 temple any time soon.

From the officially posted rules:

3) No name calling. Have some respect for your fellow club members. If we get into specifics, this list would never end. Just use common sense. Don’t imply or state that someone stupid, for example. If you call someone's post stupid, you must explain why. Attack the argument, not the person.

This is a blatant violation of those rules.



Action has been taken.

May I also say that I am in violation of personal ettiquette as well... In the group of people who went to my house after Bugarama Mark was there as well... My bad Mark, I forgot about you because you had to return to Napa for some other obligation...

Damn!
4 pages!

There is no such thing as bad press!

Grant, thanks for the clarification!

Sure there is Jake... Just hang around a grade school with a case of jock itch and you will see!

Seriously guys... I have a six and I have a four... Both of them great cars in their own ways. The six is like a hammer, the four is like a scalpel... Believe me, I am qualified to say now that both engines belong there.

Respect and you will get respect...

Grant is correct too... All the conventional wisdom in the issues of Up-Fixen over the last what... 20+ years says that any modification to the Type 4 is beyond the design capacity of the motor. They recommend no more than mild cam, Euro pistons and carbs. Before you argue with me on that you should know that I have every issue and have read every article that has the numbers 914 in it.
No matter what you think of Jake's personality and believe me I never met a Marine you couldn't learn to hate quickly (that kind of warrior requires that kind of personality), he has done the R&D that no one else was willing to do... I respect that. Unfortunately he is 30 years too late to change the conventional wisdom. Grant is right based on history, Jake is just in the process of rewriting history...

Thanks Robby..
warriors don't make friends too often, but they damn sure get the job done very well!

The major problem with the /4 is lack of reference material and lack of wisdom. Until i decided to share things no one had ever unlocked the doors of the vault and shared anything- the entire engine suffered from that. Today when I look at posts made from guys telling folks what they should do I always see a little bit of my sharing being spread about and that does make me feel good.

WOW what a post but really.....how much does it cost????????
Just kidding!!
Lets just all try to get along and learn something here.

Back in the early 80s Wayne Baker unlocked a few T-4 secrets with his IMSA GTU winning 914. He claimed 220 hp out of his 2200cc handgrenade......and had the performance to prove it. He also knew the motor's weaknesses.....here's a quote about the engine in the car when it was repurchased:

"I don't know which motor this is or how many hours are on it, but if the main seal starts leaking and you get oil on the engine side of the bellhousing, it means your crank is cracked and it's time to rebuild it. That's how we judged when it was time to rebuild the motor"

Maybe one of you T-4 wonks can explain why the cranks cracked regular like.

HAHA Any post with Jakes name in it is gonna be interesting.

Need to start developing a 6 now

The engine that Wayne ran was way ahead of it's time, but its nothing compared to tday capabilities for a full blown effort. I wish that class was still around- for sure. we now get almost that much power on pump gas an less than 10:1 CR.

The broken crank thing perplexes me, as we have NEVEr broken a crankshaft in aperformance engine. I do employ cryogenics to all our cranks and the certainly does help. I believe that back when Wayne had the failures there were two major players in the problems:
1- lack of super tight balance equipment
2- having the cranks super hardened to reduce bearing and journal wear- hard cranks are brittle.

I also know for a fact that at Laguna seca he ran the engine without a cooling fan! It was nothing but a stove pipe feeding plenums over the cylinders!

Yet again, we have never broken a crankshaft in a performance application, not even through the Baja 1000- I have several cranks that have as much as 4 pounds of mass removed from them that have seen 3 solid race seasons and still pass magnaflux.

Its all in the combo, balance and preparation. Wayne was working with a bunch of things against him and he did an outstanding job!

Most likely they were not counter-weighted with a light fly. Add that to what Jake said about balance and hardening and things will not last very long.

I too have never seen a broke T4 crank.

NONE of my race engines have counterweighted cranks. Thats two pounds that worthless IMHO

The engine I'm using is 2.5 liter non-turbo Subaru motor and in its stock configuration in a Subaru puts out 166 HP. I have no cat and a better air intake, so I'm probalby getting more like 170. Anyway, With some ECU tuning you can get 190 apparently, and if you want more you can get cams that are good for something like 15-20 HP. So getting over 200 HP is not all that difficult with this engine. Then there are the turbo engines which are essentially the same amount of work and there, the sky is the limit when it comes to power.

So yes I'm doing a ton of work for 170 HP, but the entire conversion, with cable shifter, etc. is costing me well under $3000. Others have done it for about the same price using the stock shifter, more simple exhaust, etc. The other thing is that from where I am now, it becomes a lot easier to add power. Either by swapping a dimensionally similar WRX engine or by forced induction of my current engine.

In the end getting power takes time or money. And since time is money, it ends up being a wash. Although if I factor in my labor I'm sure I'm well into the region of a Raby engine, price-wise.

-Tony

But you lose the mystique of an air cooled engine.

i respect all 914 cars, whatever they be powered by....

just think they are "truest" with an aircooled flat 4 or flat 6

Just a WAG but I assume you've never ran a T-4 to the finish of the 24hrs of Daytona & 12 hrs of Sebring either. I imagin those motors were detuned (or the max revs limited) for longevity, but the 220hp jobbies did 2-3 hour sprints in IMSA on a regular basis.

But we have ran the Baja 1000-
Does that count??

And the Carrera Panamerica. Thats 1800 miles through anything that the Mexican countryside has to offer.

Mugs914 knows the #22 Baker car well. It belongs to a friend of his and he works on it from time to time. I got a good look at it in Palm Springs at the HSR West race last November. In the Porsche race, only a very nice 914-6 with a 2.9L custom race engine beat it. There are photos of the car in my blog. Cooling was with four electric fans plus an oil cooler mounted just in front of the windshield where the air box is on a stock car. The car is not a 914 by the way. Custom tube chassie all the way, only looks like a 914. The motor uses a BMW mechanical fuel injection system, complicated, but sure works well.

I also got a chance to meet and talk with Wayne Baker and his wife at the HSR West event in Phoenix last January. We talked about the #22 a little. I left the discussion that the engines were pushed to the limit and had to be refreshed regularly. But that is generally true with "serious" race engines.

I'll see if I can post a pic of mine for ya!

Broke it six years ago. Post mortem showed that the thrust bearing had given up, and allowed the crank to oscillate longitudianally. Then, when the rev limiter was telling me to SHIFT (and I ignored it for a second or so), the mechanical limiter kicked in. Very expensive noises ensued. I shut it down immediately, and then pushed the car back to the paddock after the run group. Funny thing though, no collateral damage. No debris in the engine, no other visible damage. Even when we tore the motor down, we were able to turn it by hand no problem. Even splitting the case revealed nothing. It wasn't untill we tried to lift the crank out, when it went it two directions! The break was so clean, that the pieces mated perfectly when there was no load. Only under load did chaos break loose...

-Josh2

I bet it broke right behind the #3 main bearing in the cheek..

I have seen two broken cranks in stock Bus engines, both in the same spot after trips down mountains, just never broke one myself or in one of my engines. Todays methods and developments really help the metallurgy alot, cryo to a crank is like magic.

I have learned the hard way... Back in the dirt car days.

That Rev limiters will kill an engine faster than anything cept running out of oil. It's called crank snap.........

When we drove our engines (SBCs) up to the rev limiter and kept bouncing off of it throughout the race.

We snapped cranks.. happened to many racers... Not just me.

It wasn't till years later we learned that any crank can and will crack (snap) if this happens consistently.

Reason...

The crank is twisting as goes through it cycle. The crank is loaded in one spinning direction.
When the rev limiter cuts in. The crank instantly comes unwound of the twist. Then twists (winds up) again as the the revs drop and the spark is then re-introduced to the combustion chamber.

This happens many times per second on most limiters if ya keep the engine on the limiter. (Keep your foot into it)

The crank simply snaps from this load/unload harmonic.

Bottom line. If ya have a rev limiter. And ya run your engine constantly on it instead of using a tach, your ears, shift light, whatever.

You may very well end up with a broken crank.

This may not happen to you...

It did happen to many racers through the years. And many racers still don't know or understand this often forgotten piece of the puzzle.

I am sure the newest electronics (Motec, Marrelli, etc.) have overcome this by electronic means.
And I would bet that very few of the aftermarket ECUs (brains) that the 914 crew uses has that built into them. (If any..!!!)

Thats my experience. Yours may be differant.......

Clayton

I get to see Wayne Baker about once a month or so. Next chance I get I'll see if I can get more info about broken cranks.

When I told him about my 2316 T4 project he said "How do you plan to keep the flywheel on?" and mentioned something about wedge-mating the flywheel.

we only wedgemate for engines making over 300 ponies, up to that point special ream to fit bolts and 5 doweling of the crank gets us safely by.

Russ Fellowes made 440+HP in a drag race application and did so with a stock crank and no wedgemate. Drag Race applications are the hardest possible thing on the planet for a crank to live through.

I'm not wedgemating the fly on my drag race engine, shopuld be about 240HP N/A from only 2270 cc with 14.5:1 CR. I'm building it with 100% off the shelf parts to exploit the strength of the components.

I have 2270s with over 100K miles on them that on a bad day make 145HP, no broken cranks- not once, not ever.

When I do look for an egine to buy I am looking for DD reliability with the weekend races/autoX's.

Derek,
Thanks for asking your question that started this thread. I think this has been the most interesting discussion, including the huff and puff that came up, since I started using this site for general 914 info.
There is nothing wrong with a little steam being released every once in a while anyhow and most times we all need to vent sometimes.
The price factor you sought was there for you but it really depended on what engine you want to pay for doesn't it? You may not need an engine other than what you already have to go fast. Some of these guys are master's using what they have but then again, it takes lots of time to get to the point that Jake can start you out at. Remember. It's all about who sits in the driver's seat anyhow.
Since you are new to the 914, maybe you should just enjoy owning one for now and see if you become crazy like the rest of us before spending too much to go faster.
Thanks all who posted anything for the great ride you gave me with this thread.

MikeCool

I actually was going to delete the thread but the stuff posted is very interesting and fascinating to read. I am quite enjoying it. I love my 914 and wouldn't trade it for the world. I had some issues with it the day I bought it when I drove it from 10 hours from San Antonio and would buy it again! Definitly a hoot to drive. I may possibly. I was wondering if I can do some minor things or order some parts from Jake like a cam or something for just little bit of a power boost. there are more important things to fix but I am always curious. We are here to learn and share right?


Derek

Not sure what exactly motor you have but a cam change (9550) with FI and better springs and retainers is good for a few hp and revs.

That is problem number two hehe. It's a 73 and has a 1.7 badge but I was told they didn't have 1.7's in 73 so a 1.8? It is FI

1.8 isnt until 74.....

in 73 you had a 2.0 or a 1.7

No small feat finishing those races. You are to be congradulated.

My only exception was your lack of respect for those who had gone before in the T-4 world. Nuthin' wrong with some self promotion, but the ground you are walking has been trod before, eh?

My own suppositions as to why Mr. Baker broke cranks is different, but maybe someone will talk to him and get the answer.

Rich Bontempi built some pretty powerful motors for his E production 914, too. Was that as long ago as the late '70's?

No worries...

I didn't mean to disrespect any of those.

I try not to do any of the things that others before me have done, even if it worked for them. The results took a damn long time to get, but no one can say I copied them!

Nothing ever stays the same, what we break these days(parts wise) and what we make power wise has never been done in the past, especially on pump gas. The components and dedication didn't exist. In days past it took really big, detuned engines to make big power for the TIV and live, not true today at all and thats only made possible from a network of people working together for one result.

Yet again, anyone that wants to learn about the 914 engine and our upgrades needs to listen to the radio show this week, it'll be posted tomorrow evening.

Derek,

This thread, I think, took a completely different turn than you intended. Both positive and negative opinions about Jake´s engines has been posted.

My experience with Jake has been very positive. I ordered a semi-engine kit last February from LN Engineering. In turn, LN Engineering, per my request, asked Jake to complete my kit. I really never thought about converting my car or going to the alternate engines for the 914...and knew that Jake builds the best TIV engines. I am a strong believer that a VIN 47 car should be powered with a TIV engine...and that a VIN 914 car should be powered by an early Porsche 6 cylinder engine.

I said semi-kit because prior to buying it, I had collected a few of the parts that made up the kit. In fact, some of my parts were non-standard on a Raby kit since there is no Nickies 103mm based kit in Jake´s website. Still he accepted to do my kit, which I am pretty sure required quite a bit more work because of the different bore, even though he expressed at around that time that he would not do custom engines/kits for the 914 because of another hot thread that took place back then.

Lucky for me, Jake was in the middle of major heads improvements while building my kit. I originally ordered my kit with the old style heads, however, Jake upgraded my kit with the new heads at no extra cost...that is about a 40Hp improvement based on his test data. Furthermore, while putting my kit together, he ran out of the bearings for the 78mm cranckshaft that was standard on my kit and instead built it with an 80mm (w/ Chevy journal) cranckshaft that included improved rod bearings...again at no extra cost to me. The additional stroke increased my total displacement from 2615cc´s to 2664cc´s...again more free HP´s.

Although my kit is still not put together, I am pretty sure that it is going to be an awesome engine.

My point of view on Jake is that from a customer that paid for his services and got a product back. I may add a satisfied customer. I originally bought something I believed was very good..and in the end I got better than very good.

Rich ran his 1.8 EP car a few years ago. Awesome to hear a 1.8 turning 8K!

I don't think any of those earlier engines had Nickies to help build power or did they adapt "6" parts??

I remember hearing Rich Bontempi's 1.8L engine was in the 180hp range.


As noted Jake is a straight shooter and ex-marine and he also promotes his stuff, but if you have dealt with him (I have a fair amount) you find out you get good results.

Jake has helped me with parts and advice rebuild the 2.1L (non-standard parts too), to rebuild the 2.0L Westy (running great!) and Blair with some the parts to rebuild the 1.7L.
All in this year so, its been a Raby year for me. And yes Jake, the Djet is running great without lean spots even at 6500rpms.

The rest of the parts to complete the 914's came from GPR, thanks Dave.

[/quote]

Rich Bontempi built some pretty powerful motors for his E production 914, too. Was that as long ago as the late '70's?
[/quote]


Rich ran his 1.8 EP car a few years ago. Awesome to hear a 1.8 turning 8K!
[/quote]

8500 and 9K is even better!
I believe that in the next year we'll be able to break the 200 barrier with an 1800 production engine. Chris Foley's made 186 :-)

We are removing some variables from our race program that will allow for incredible development in the coming years. Risks of scattering parts with a customer's engine will no longer be an issue!

I have sought out Jake for advice, he gave it, it was the right advice. I bought stuff from him, he advised what to get based on my plans, he treated me right on the price. I would definitely recommend him and will buy from him in the future. I love his attitude! Can't wait to meet him in person some day and shake his hand!

Ian Stott
Moncton
Canada