Ok first of all let me say if this is totally inapropriate or if you do not approve Mr. Raby please say so and mod's delete her on out.


I have been looking through the RAT website and can not find a price range for the engines. So I was wondering what all engines people on here have, what the hp and tq numbers are, and a price that they paid. Maybe also when they got it? I know the price will not be exactly the same but I am curious to know what some of the engines are being built for as a basic price line. Also how do you like the motor, is it reliable, any maintanance done etc. I am very curious or if this has been done before could someone give me some assistance via link. I'm search illiterate.

Thank you,
Derek

AFAIK Jake prefers to speak to each person individually to determine their wants and needs vs. their budget; therefore, ballpark numbers are not listed on his site.....recommend you call him. IMHO, the popular perception is that he is somewhat "pricey" although I think the majority also feel you get what you pay for. Jake won't respond to your request here either as he has (to my understanding) "sworn off" any marketing discussion on this forum re: his work. How about a Suby conversion? (I think he's working on that too)
Later,

I ordered one of his kits from the webpage several months ago, price was listed for that. Had a followup discussion on the phone with Jake to confirm specifics , mostly related to what type cam I needed. Jake gave me good info on what fuel systems to use, etc. Parts came in on schedule as promised. All look good. I have not gotten engine assembly complete, so I can't say more, but I am optimistic.

I based my decision to buy his kit based mostly on positive comments by members on the 914club board, and a few elsewhere; as I have other limited information on aircooled engines. Wish I could have afforded to buy a completely assembled engine. I browsed comments about some of the other engine builders, and I was not able to come up with a definitive yes for any of them- not to say they aren't good, I just couldn't find enough info to say they were. Most of all comments on the Raby engines were good.

Good luck. Joe O

The flack started over a member who asked for a engine with all the bell’s, (nickies, stroked, fuel injection, dual TB’s, DTM, tangerine header, dyno time, labour, etc. etc.)

He almost died of sticker shock, a flame event started and he posted the quote.

Having built a similar engine and with two more in the works, I can tell you his price was not out of line.

Some say Jake is pricy but without him we would be dealing with hi-po crap that hasn’t changed since the early 80’s. These engines are expensive to work on, they do not like wrong combo’s and add to that R&D costs money. He doesn’t list prices because almost every engine he builds is custom. He can give you a ballpark (to weed out the tire kickers) but then he has to figure out a quote as to what you want.

Mark:
Are you going to become the "Northern Distributor" of Ruby Engines???
Or are you just trying to have some fun with the Type IV's?

I AM the Canadian distributor of RAT part’s…AAMOF when McMark started offering the 5K engine Jake offered me the deal first, but I declined due to the border hassles I would have had to cope with.
Between RAT and LN I have at least $20K of stuff in stock.

Most of my T4 engines are half RAT and half mine, I’ve been building engines for 18 years, Jake knew this and I’m one of the few he trusts not to screw up and to keep proprietary secrets.

I have, sort of had..., but actually do still have a Raby built 2270cc motor and it is fine, very fine.

I can't quote a price that was paid on the motor as I purchased it as part of a car built by others (see below if you wish). It has been expressed as 155 HP and people who know all said that it felt like it.

Even with a stockish ignition system, a Dansk muffler that quickly blew a seam, and stock exhaust, it made righteous power.

It was a little wierd to get used to the motor in the beginning.

All my previous teener experience was with stock motors that all seemed to make mysterious sounds at certain times (harmonics), particularly on deceleration and some 'un-loaded' conditions.

With the RAT there is none of that, a very flat torque curve, and the throttle response was hot, the engine was running dual Weber carbs.


John

If you need to know the ballpark figure for a built-up engine you can search out that topic and subtract all the upgrades. If I was making a wild ass guess at a ballpark price on a built engine I'd say:

engine parts (look at the prices of the kit you want - around $5,000 for the 2270 torquer)
injection ($1100 for dual Webers, $2500 for full EFI)
spark ($400 for basic Mallory and Bosch coil)
exhaust (your own or something from Jake)
add in about 30 hours of labor for building and dyno tuning $75/hour???
add in any upgrades (cryo treatment, better heads, arp studs, nickies, etc)
shipping $200-300

So my WAG ballpark range would be that an engine built by them with fuel, spark, and dyno tuned would start at $9000 for webers, and $11500 for full EFI setup plus any upgrades you add on.

BUT that is just a WAG, it's better to call Jake and get an estimate if you are serious.

Like mentioned above, the "kit' prices are on his site so that'll help adding things up...


Look at this thread here: The $5K motor, it'll give a breakdown on what is included and the specs of the motor.

I believe that the $5K motor is the least expensive assembled engine offered thru Jake, you should be able to get a "kit" of parts to assemble that'll meet or exceed those numbers for less money, but it'll be more work on your end.

If you want more HP, then from him, the price is obviously going to go up....it is very easy to get sticker shock from "feature creep", the tendancy of adding options and things one wants, even if they are not entirerly needed

If you're serious, contact Raby. He knows his stuff and will be honest and upfront with you. Always good to do your homework because Raby has done his. There's a reason you read so much good stuff about him...

Hello everyone. After reading through everyones posts I suppose i am a "tire kicker" right now because I partially don't want to waste Mr. Raby's time because I am just curious what the basic costs are. I will read further into it. I appreciate the posts yall.

Derek


EDIT also someone mentioned the Subaru engine conversion. I was interested in putting in an L or RS motor and buying the kit from Renegade.(I toured their shop once. Unbelieveable!) It is still in the back of my head though. If anyone who reads this and is doing a suby conversion feel free to PM me if you would like and I will take a look at some of the progress threads and what not.

Subaru is the way to go if you dont have to worry about PCA rules around AX and Track events. I'd go Subaru or used Porsche Six before a high priced big bore T4.

Derek, Nice to meet you today.
Hey YA'll There is another 914 owner on the Gulf Coast. Otherthan the Phantom Black car that is suppossedly 8 miles form me and I had still yet to see it.

Gave Derek a spin around the block and got a "Wow cool"

Got a feeling we are going to get along well, already making arrangements for the next Autocross.

Derek you et what you pay for. I am currently assembling a motor that will have some of Jake's Massaging on it.


Since you are going to school and all I say run what you got at least for this year and then make a jump to the Massive side. After you get your car to handle great. Which means I wouldn't put more than 110 HP in a car till the suspension is closer to my car.

Oh back on topic no secret to pricing you tell the man what you want to do with the car he will provide you with all the info concerning options and HP etc. Then settle on a price exactly as he has outlined on his site.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/order-process.htm

Derek:
There are a few guys doing their own Subie conversions (mine was a turn key by Renegade); the main guy that comes to mind is Tony (TONYAKAVW); one of his recent posts is at: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=59681
Later,

I have been following Tony's Suby conversion.
Pretty sweet but that is one hell of alot of effort to get 140 maybe 160 HP.

Derek,
My complete engines are not priced publically, thats because no two are the same.

The engine kits are priced on my store and are in an entirely different story than the complete engines I custom build per application.

I can help you in some way, surely.

Wow, I thought for sure he was getting more than that! AFAIK, the stock 2 liter WRX turbo hp is around 230 - Tony should be able to get at least that much, but I'll let him speak for himself.

I haven't dyno'ed mine yet, but Renegade estimates 250 before doing any ECU tuning. I'm getting my ECU tuned and dyno'ed Wednesday; I'll let all know how it comes out.
Later,

So who is all running a Raby motor in SCCA on the west coast?

Hey everyone! Sorry it has been a long day. It was awesome meeting you Joe and it was also sweet meeting Rob. Learning new things about my car is always a plus! I forgot to ask you about the 1.8 thing and how to check. Also it was a little bit of a wow cool but more of a freakin sweet! I don't know if the emotions showed it but it totally got me stoked to start working on mine. The semi awesome news is I went out today with my buddy and drove the 914 up and down county farm road. She held 2nd-5th the whole time and only lost out of 2nd on the way home. I had a blast and got my buddy stoked to get another Fiero. He will be attending the AX's with me also in his Fiero. I can't wait to sell the Maxima out and get some cash to fund her. I am planning a list in my head of things I want. For now it's a get the shifting fixed but I don't think I have a sway bar. It is kind of wobbily left to rightage. A hair more than comfortable hehe. I think I need a balance also. I was gettin some shakage when I hit I-10 at about 70ish. I can't wait. Also my car is red now but I'm almost positive the original color is a light bluish color. Ok back on topic.


Jake- I'm not too familiar with the flat 4's but can you do just cam's etc and get a decent kick out of them? What all can be done semi in stages and minor things? Most likely I will leave it stock but I am very curious.

Oh and the WRX engines look sweet but I'd have to agree with Joe that I need to learn to drive it.... hard and fast. Then run better suspension and then power! Still sweet though!


Derek

No one that I know of.

I keep my race engines on the east coast most of the time and I don't too too many of them. Currently I have 3 production racers (soon to be 4 listen for that BIG announcement on the next radio show) and I also have one pro rally engine that sees plenty of action.

I tend to stay away from track engines these days because they take so much time to build and most drivers don't have cars set up correctly to put my power to good use.

I also keep my race engines o this coast because I want to be able to suppiort them as much as possible. I am currently 100% filled to capacity with race engines and can't support any more of them with my frantic street engine schedule and R&D

Whew.

Thats right... Racers that leave fuel in their tank for 7 months and waste engines, as well as those that don't have a suspension or brakes to handle 1/2 the power I give them are only detriments to my reputation. When they run at the back of the pack, or kill an engine its not fun for me at all. Stupid little things like mickey mouse throttle cables, loose plug wires, dead batteries and racing on old tires are just a few of the problems we have had.

Reasons like this is exactly why Len and I decided to take our program to the next level, you'll be hearing more about the way we are doing that in the next few days- especially if you listen to the radio show this week.

What a fucking retard.

Who is the retard?

So sorry, let me rephrase that. Jake, you're a fucking retard. Stick with what you know, building engines and shut the hell up.

If ya have an issue with the man....

Why don't you PM him????

Mr. Neff. I didn't see anyone calling you out?

Clayton Clark

No issue here. I think that Jake's "it's all about me" posts are adolescent and decided to poke some fun. His broad statements about the stupidity of his customers are an ongoing source of fun in my reading of this BBS. I hope he continues to berate racers and 914 owners alike.

Carry on gents!

Later,
Kevin

Is that really necessary? Perhaps Travis would like to attend the 2006 South East Classic at Jakes shop next weekend and take this up mano y mano?

Let's show a little respect.

If all of jake's motor failures are the result of stupid racers not taking care of their cars why all of the R&D?

Clayton, you're right - I should have pm'd him, however he doesn't do email or PM's on this site. So my approach makes me as big an ass as Jake.

Kevin - I couldn't have said it better myself. The negative connotations in his posts are what bug me.

D1A3 - I respect Jakes work, his comments about other people and the self boosting ego bother me. And "give some respect"? Did you not read what Jake wrote? If anything I am shoveling the same slop as him at worst.

I totally see Jakes point of view on this.....there are people out there that will spend $10K or more just for a motor thinking that that'll be the "ticket" to 1st place everytime when the rest of thier car is junk or that they cannot drive worth a $hit....

All it takes is one dumbass owner with a POS car to still be at the back of the pack and do nothing but blame his "new Raby motor" when the motor had nothing to do with them being lapped.....

Jake is just saying that now his time is focused on racers that are serious all the way around, not just building motors for any person who just happens to have the cash and think that'll buy them a trophy.....

My 2-cents worth on Mr. Raby.

I respect Mr. Raby, but I am getting tired of his self serving statements. Reminds me of the quote:

Quote:
History will bed kind to me , because I will write the story!!!!

Tom

Opps, Mis-spelled Quote:

Quote:
History will be kind to me, because I will write the story!!!

It's immature members like this, who annoy members who actually have something to contribute. What purpose does this serve?

FYI- We have only ahd ONE of these stupid little issues that killed an engine in a race application. All the others have either kept the racer at the middle of the pack at best, but it wasn't due to lack of power.

The fact is **most** racers are willing to spend 20K+ for an engine, but they are not willing to have their suspension sorted out by a specialist for 1/4 of that amount- same goes with the brakes. On a Road Course its a balance of power/brakes/suspension/driver that wins the race and since a 914 is not a straight line car all the HP in the world will not help it win a race.

I gave it an honest effort back here because I received so many emails begging me to come back to the 914 Club and in general I like **most** of the guys here.

There are always those jerks who get pissy about stupid stuff, or just want to bitch about something and since I'm very open with what I say and don't mind pissing people off I end up being a target.

If I were a jerk I'd call off the entire open house at my shop this weekend that will allow 914 owners to come see my place, and it would be Mr. Neff's fault for being an asshole.

BTW- Before you call me "self serving":
look at who initiated this thread- It damn sure wasn't me!

The post was started and some things were not clear enough concerning me, my engines and what we do here with race programs. Due to this I made a post that was point blank and served the purpose of getting the point across.

Thats nothing more than ANY of you would do given my same position.

I'm not here to make friends- I'm here to get the job done and provide power to those who want it. Those that have been my customer know who I am and what my company is about and they don't complain. That speaks volumes on my effectiveness and support after the sale.

Mr Raby,

Thanks for a Raby reply. Mr Neff was off base in his statement & should not have made that comment. The thing that bothered me is your statement about the poor guys who spends $10K for your motor. You berate them because they don't win races. These Raby $10K customers should get an apology for the way you criticized their cars. It's none of your business how they set up their 914 with a Raby motor. They paid their money for your research, so you can stay in business.

I'll stop there & hope you see what we see. Don't critize your customers in an open forum. You need them more than they need you. I respect you as a motor builder, but you do not handle criticism well.

Tom

I have NOT criticized them! The guys that spend 10K on an engine are NOT race customers, they are street customers and REALLY appreciate my work. If you look at the latest updated testimonials (with pics) on my site from a recent 914 owner you will see that.

As for as race engines, 10K won't buy the parts, double that number and you'll be getting close to what a full blown race engine costs.

As far as handling criticism, no I don't do it well- but why does it need to exist in the first place?? The people that I provide these engines to are the ONLY ones that even have a right to criticize me, they don't.

I was merely trying to state why I don't choose to build very many 914 race engines (or race engines in general) and put my emphasis toward seriously powerful, highly developed street engines that are dual purpose for the street and weekends at the track.

I certainly did not mean to piss anyone off- not this time. As I stated above I have been back on the 914 club for about a month now and have made a serious effort NOT to cause any trouble or drama. I suppose if I sat down and made every post that I make less informative, but more cordial that you guys would love me- but thats not who or what I am. I am the same way in person, but the keyboard and monitor don't have personalities like we all do in person.

FYI- 914 work has never kept me in business, about 15% of what i create for complete engines go into 914 applications- BUT I still want to help you guys.

Lets please don't start a drama fest this time, I'm willing to cool down if you guys are. I have too busy of a week to be dragged down by bullshit like this.

Jake,

The air is cleared & everyone is cooled off

Now back to 914 business.

Tom

Tom

I disagree with what you say. I believe Jake does have a right to expect his customers to provide a competitive car to go along with his engines. He has a limited amount of engines he can build so, he needs to find the right car and driver. He probably could have phased it better but, if he's got a thick enough skin that's his choice.

Whether Jake is self serving or not, he brings a lot of info here which we all are better off for. Dealing with his replies is the price we pay. We all deal with people everyday that we consider difficult. In some respects how we deal with these people is a measure of who we are. Not everyone comes with smooth edges.

I have spent a bunch of time corresponding with Jake, talking with him and even drove 2100 miles to spend a couple of days with him. My opinions of him may be a little biased but, he is dedicated to his motors. He also is a young man trying to build a business. He works very long hours, believes deeply in his product and agressively pushes his ideas. I doubt his attitude will change but, maybe he will mellow a little with age.

Sometimes I shake my head at some of the stuff Jake posts. I probably wouldn't take the same stance but then, we are all a little different. A little ground given on all sides would help. Quite frankly, everyone should take a step back from this one and give it a rest for a while.

Dave

Jake well said.

Dave

Who might those new serious racers with results be? I couldnt tell you who uses his motors now, but I'm certainly aware of the major Raby race engine failures.

It's just nice to see Jake admit his engines do take a signficant amount of support. A high strung T4 can go south in a hurry if not properly maintained. A misadjusted carb could fry a T4 race engine in one track session. My sense is Jake is less worried about being at the back of the pack in a poorly prepared car and doesnt want some yahoo blowing up another one of his motors. His race engine reputation can't afford to have any more major motor failures.

Who had a major failure? Give me names and I'll tell you if the owners even exist. I have taken many race engine programs that had seasons full of failures and have provided more than a solid season of reliability to that customer with no failures at all all while making more power than he ever had before (he admitted to that)

We have had ONE catastrophic engine failure in the last 4 years, a couple of near nisses but they were only slightly damaging to the engine.

It's apparent that grantsfo has a desire to stir crap up in this thread again. He don't like me and I don't like him but I don't go oput of my way to harass him and deface his character.

Poor preparation is the cause of 90% of race engine failures, no matter who builds the engine.

I think I should put my 2 cents in here too, since Jake was indirectly referring to me in his post about supplying engines to race programs that don't meet the standards of his own work. Jake has first hand experience with how loose ends interfere with being successful at racing. He was present at my first and last race events in '05. My race program and that of his other sponsored FProd driver last season did little to promote awareness of Jake's engine building talent because of other shortcomings on our part. At the Runoffs I was still sorting out issues that should have been solved no later than the 3rd race of the season. As a result the cars never performed up to the potential of the supplied engines.
Based on this experience I can see why Jake would make such a statement. His race engine customers are sponsored for advertising purposes. If his racers don't make a good impression on the track the only benefit he receives is what he learns from the R & D required to push the envelope.

Thanks for the post, Chris.

BTW- even though I referred to some of your shortcomings in the post I did not mean to point any fingers at you, I was merely making statements about things that can and HAVE happened to my racers in the past.

When you finally got things together you won a race, then the big crash (twice) at the runoffs really did things in, of course that wasn't your fault.

2005 left a really bad taste in my mouth for race engines, I didn't take on any racers in 2006 at all and got rid of a couple (off road guys). Next year and beyond the field will be even smaller-

I'm glad I don't race.
I am happy with Autocross
I wish I had more power
My car can handle more power
I need to learn how to use more power once I get it.

GIVE ME MORE POWER

How much bigger can the engine go to stay in the same class? You win enough that you might be deserving of some *assistance* :-)

I turned down a racer here (Ontario) because I didn't feel comfortable with his time constraints or his abilities, not to mention the fact that he wouldn't listen to a damn word I said. His track record with his engines speaks for itself.

Grant, why don't you just sell the 914 and get a 911, 'cause you seem to me too be just another NARP asswipe. I don't know why you have such a hard-on for Jake and the T4 but it's getting old.

As for blowing T4 engines...I live beside Mosport and I've seen many a shredded high dollar /6. Bad prep and/or bad driver will and can kill ANY engine in racing, only in the low-buck racing world does the engine builder get all the blame.