Well I have bit the bullet sold the fron Weltmeister 22mm bar, and picked up a Nascar Hand me down.

As of today all the parts are in except the bearings, I will have them tomorrow, TSC (Tractor Supply Company) has the parts I need.

I liked smart racings graphs so much I had to make my own.

Foot Pound numbers are the upper column, size is across the bottom. With the arms I am running these are the rates I can achieve.

Mr. H. Ross Perot, would be proud of me.

I'm still trying to figure out why you want such incredibly stiff sway bars.

You're defeatnig the purpose of an independent suspension with mongo bars like that...

Still, I can't wait to see pictures of those monster bars in a 914...

-Josh2

The theory of big bars and soft springs. has some interesting benefits.
Car will stay flat but should followbumpy surfacesbetter with a Koni sport set 1/2 range or so.

Yes it does have some points, but also there are downsides.

I can't even consider it on our bumpy venues for fear of bottoming both the chassis & suspension. The "as low as you can go" is out the window with soft springs for the same reasons, even on "normal" venues....just suspension bottoming problems. Squat & dive also can become an issue.

We'll expect reports as to how it is working out.

But that's not going to happen.

What's a sway bar? It's a big spring that couples the left and right side suspensions. When the outbaord side suspension moves, the inboard suspension will be forced to move in that same direction. So not only does the outboard suspension have to move against it's own spring rate, it has to move against the inbaord suspension spring rate as well (adjusted for the coupling rate between the two). The only time a massive sway bar won't be a problem on bumpy sufaces is when you're traveling straight, where the two sides are equally loaded, and the bump effects both wheels equally. Once you're in a turn, the mongo sway bar can actually make compliance issues -worse-, not better. BTDT.

I'm not saying that all spring and no sway is the solution either. But if you're trying to optimize for performance (and not freeway ride comfort), then mongo sway bars and soft torsion bars I don't think are a good combination.

Yes, it's true, you can make the spring rates too stiff, such that you skate over bumpy terrain. If you were always going to drive on glassy smooth racetrack asphalt, then all spring and minimal sway bar might be great. But that's rarely the case. So, failing that, you need to tune to a good compromise. But small torsion bars and a Peterbuilt sway bar are extreemes in the wrong directions, IMHO.

-Josh2

All I can report is what I have observed watching and riding in a 914 set up with stock front torsion bars and a 31mm Tarret front sway bar. I believe he has either 180 or 200# rear springs, but I could be wrong on the rear.
I believe he is running adjustable Konis front and rear

The car turns in very nicely and holds it's set well. No tendency to plow or rear to be tail happy. I have ridden in it at Sears at speed and also at Marina AX site.

But then I compare it to my car with 21mm front torsion bars, stock sway bar and 180# rear springs and don't feel much difference.
Maybe if I drove the car I could feel the difference.
I just don't like relying on a huge sway bar to be my entire performance suspension.
A lot of stress being put on that area of the wheel well, that it wasn't designed for. I would have to do some pretty major reinforcement of that area to use such a large sway bar. I would think that after a lot of abuse that area would begin to "oil can" and then work harden and crack...
To each his own. If you can make it work...good for you. Just not the way I have done it in the past on my 4 914s.

In this person's application that I described, it works very well. He has been at the top of the AX results with this set up and is on a very good learning curve on the big track with the same setup.

This "person" sounds very familiar

31mm Smart Racing Products front sway bar
200# rear springs on adustable perches
stock rear sway bar- always connected
Koni adjustables all around

This winter will include some chassis strengthening exercises in the front as well as the rear suspension ears.


KT

You guys make me

BTW, I can make this bar softer than a 22mm if I wanted to, I have a settings that make it run softer and harder than my former 22, there are lots of ways to play with a big bar here.

So back to the work:

I did some

Here is what I got.

First off the arms in stock form they are 5 lbs a piece, them Nascar guys like road hugin weight!!! After drilling cutting, and I have them out being milled right now. My hope is a less portly arm.

This pile of shavings is from one arm.

I am still working on these making them lighter. I have drilled a few more holes. And still need to cut the ends off.

Ah Roller bearings. And they fit like they should.

Next comes the mounts for these bearings. Pattren being made, I have to drill a big hole in the side of the car. I will make a template for hte hole saw out of hard wood. So I can bolt it in and drill them out. First the cardboard template.

The bearing cups with the bearing installed and locking collar.

Working hard at it tonight, Fab work is so slow........

My old reinforcements welded in nut plates, made out of 16 ga.

Next I made a fixture to cut the arms off square.

Built a new set of backing plates ground off the old ones, it is very tight in there, so had to grind a little off the one side.

Nut Plate test fitted. things left todo:

Drill out the hole for the bearing to sit into.

Test fit bearing cage!

Weld in the engman reinforcements - hoping they get to the shop in time.

Weld up everything else.

Rinse and repeat on the other side.

Install the bar, fit the arms, drop links and the tabs. then bolt the rest of the suspension back in. I have the strut out right now, easier to work in there.

Yes I gradeated from the Sir Andy School of Photcrappy did not look that bad on that tiny 2.5 inch LCD. Honestly

Looks like NASCAR doesn't need it adustable...but now with all those centered holes it will be (?). Nice work! A bearing will really reduce the stress, so will those enormous mounting plates. I'll be interested in seeing the rear come together and dealing with the small amount of room that most lowered 914s have (like mine).

Everyone watching:

The KEY is.. range of adjustment. MUCH easier to adjust F+R bars than it is to change spring rates in the front or rear of a 914.

Do you know the first thing that gets done to a GT3Cup car when it comes out of the crate here in the USA? YANK out the SUPER stiff springs. They work great for Formula1 tracks but they SUCK here in the states.

JP has a VERY good point about squat and such. I typically dial this in and out with the shocks.



B

Stephen -
If you don't mind, will you post the details in regard to the sources and part #s for this install??? - I am planning on something similar, very soon, and those details would be big help -

Thanks -

Thom

Sources

Here is the list so far:

1 3/16" Swaybar - Schroeder - Ebay score - it was $45.00 plus 12.50 shipping.

Arms - Coleman Racing 49 spline solid arm 43.90 each. Speedway engineering product, nice but 5lbs a piece.

Bearings and end links Big Bearing Store I used a prelubed bearing, I would liked to use a relube, but it would be a paint to build the grease groves into this setup. You can do it, but I will pull the bearings and replace or repack if I have to.

1/2 rod ends where ~7 each

Bearing plates Tractor Supply Company 2 bolt flange - I am using 6 of them, I used a set to make the nut plates with. Also got the bearings here, so I made sure they fit the plates.

Bolts Tractor Supply Company Sells Grade 8 buy the pound, so about $7 worth of stuff, probably less, but I grabbed a ton of bolts nuts washer to get fit up done.

Tube and Jam nuts for the Rod ends. Pegusas Auto Racing. The tubes where 9.95 x2 each, the jam nuts where .95 each x4 Them Funky washer to keep a failed rod end in from parting company with the chassis. They also work really well as a spacer fro the ends that still allow a range of movement. I have 8 of these ~20 bucks.

Grand Total - Oh I hate doing this....... $237.55

I also have these in mistakes 3 bolt flange - just no room, you could do it, but it is just harder. $3.45

Two flanges with bearings cast. @ 10.95 each

Mistake totals - $25.35 Will recoup some to this by applying the mistakes to another project, not sure what thou.....

Sold the old Welt 22, thanks again So I have a total outlay in the project of $87.90 including the mistakes.

I have not started the rears yet, but I am looking @ $250 for the rear. I am hoping I can keep close that number.

Good work!!

Thanks for the resources.


KT

ok.. why not mill the arms with a SLOT so you have infinite adjustment vs 12 predrilled holes.....

slot them like a tarett bar, and you can get more precise adjustment...

very cool tho

Stephen -
Thanks for doing this - it is a huge help !!!!

Aaron,

Porsche has never offered a sliding adjustment sway bar on their race cars.

Always have been "multi-hole" I have wondered this same thing.

They typically only ship the cars with one adjustable drop link per sway bar. No need for two.


B

I find it interesting too...

Why not blade style in-cockpit adjusters?

Then again, individual holes make for VERY repeatable settings. Whereas a free sliding clamp on an arm (like the welt, or others) means there is more room for slop in trying to make a repeated adjustment. Say, from dry to rain and back...

And really, how much resolution is actually needed in adjusting a sway bar? Is there really a need to adjust a sway bar in 1 lb increments?

Just a thought...

-Josh2

ALMS says you cant have cockpit adjustable bars... so we put the adjusters in the front trunk for the front bar and the rear bar adjuster in the engine compartment.

Depending on what class you run your 914 in.. most run groups dont allow cockpit adjustable bars.

One of the big time supports of this site is working on cockpit adjustable/blade bars for multiple cars.


The New GT3997 Cups come with everything but the cables and the adjusters.

Roger Sheridan has been running a rear cockpit adjustable bar on his 914 for years and years. He changes it as the race wears on and the front tires start to go away.


B

Well first up, the Mail Lady came today, and brought a package from Mark

Here is what was inside:

Supes Sway Bar Mounts
U tabs
inner log re-inforcments.

Found out my 2 bolt mout exceeded the dimensions of Marks super mounts, dang nab it!!!!

Time to fab a few of my own.

Next up drilling a major hole in the chassis. The bearings slip into this area, so the force is in a horazontal plane to the bearing. Should make it stronger yet!

Well there is a picture in which hours of work went on.

Stripped the paint, test fitted, stripped some more paint, paint the inner fender with a zinc epoxy, and the back side of my re-infrocement plate. The welds will splatter a little more, but hopefully the zinc will make rust creep a thing of the past. Only time will tell.

Here it is ready for wellding.

I grab the welder, open the tank, lay down a few beads on a sub srtap plate I was makeing, and sfffff _______ what, yep no gas. And dang it, its past noon. So I went on and preped a bunch more stuff. I well now get it all test fit and ready to weld then have a welding marathon.

Engman U tab kit is very nice worth the $$, I could not fab one this good.

I did have to bore it out for my larger bolts,

But with the washers from Pegasus they look like I plalned it this way. No really I did! Well not really it just happened that way, love it when a plan comes togther.

And I finally cut the arms off, they are now down to 2 lbs. a piece

Aaron, I don't think I will slot the arm, I would like to get them lighter yet, and the slot would weaken the part. I intended after this season is over to take the arms to work, and relieve the arm of a little more of its girth.

Here is how my bar jig worked out for choping the end of. I use a Small Miter saw as my metal chop saw. It is cheaper, lighter, and more acurate than a 14" chop saw. I use a blade made by MK Morse This thing is as nice as they say. $42.00 well spent, the saw was only $10 bucks more.

the ends arent hurting for strength..... why not slot it fot infinitely more adjustability like a tarett/samrt/welt style (latter 2 are tubular... but slide)

just a thought.....

cool project

My welt drove me nuts, had to use a tape everytime I made an adjustment. This way I know it is in the same place. But then the slide could work. I could recess the bolt head into the arm and that would free up one hand for a tape. I guess I could mark the bar also and build in my own tape.

Okay that is round two, once this season is over. I have 3 more events. - well 2 now that my welder lost its gas, I could not make tomorrow if I wanted too. Hopefully I can hold my points lead, looking at the pre-event registration I shuld be okay, but you neverr know who will show up

Thank you for the kind words!

Week came and went, finally got the tank replaced, Did a bunch of fitting on the drivers side, and finally got to welding this afternoon. I lent my welder out, to a bud whose welder had died, he brings it back. I have the regulator, but now hose for the tank. So I can him back, hey you got a hose over there for this thing.

Nope, ahh crap, he shows up about half hour latter, and we fab a new hose. Not as nice as the factory, but he made good on the deal, and will replace the original hose. But at least I got to weld the passenger side in. They are not pretty in some spots, but I know I got good penetration.

Got to love buring paint, I will clean it all up, prime it, seam seal it, then color coat. Once welding is done, inner fenders get a shot of anti, chip clear. I am tired of all the little chips the DOT-Rs cause.

I was also filling the side markers while I was there. Cut out a piece to fill the big hole flush, and welded the little holes shut.

I took photshop lessons from Trekkor!!! My sharpy measurements in the one picture are for ride height settings to get the arms back in place, well close at least. And no I am not buildin a baja 914, it is up on jackstands!!!

If I get all the events done today, I hope to get some more welding done on the drivers side, and passengers side seam sealed and in primer. That clip in the picture of the front trunk is my fuel filter mount. It took the lines out of the tunnel to make sure I did not make a bigger mess of things.

Anybody got a recommendation on a good coating to spray into that tunnel area, so I can seal it up?

BTW, if I rip that swaybar out of this car, I might as well just junk the chassis. I still contend that most of the tore chassis I have seen are caused by bushing bind causing the mount to place stress on the bolts and them then tearing the chassis out.

Hopefully have an update tonight.

That should hold

My welder friend after tigging up my broken PMS mount said: "If that breaks, I don't want to be there".

Some welds become the strongest part of the car.

Good work.


KT

Thanks Trekkor.

Well got a little time this afternoon, after everything else wound down. Ground down and filled Pass side running light. Seam sealed the back side of my welds, and seam sealed the re-inforcement plates. The re-inforcements for the drivers side where primed in zinc. As was the inner fender well on the driver side. I made filler plates for the drivers side running lights, and the antenna hole. Pictures to follow.

Opps missed a spot or two on the back side of the side marker, glad I took pictures of everything.

Today was not my day to weld, so I have walked away for a while. Probally go back out latter tonight and clean the shop. My mind and arm where not playing well with each other, just pisses me off. So I will put it down and take a breather and see what comes latter.

Oh well I should have finished welding up the drivers side. But alas it is not ment to be right now.


I hate it when I have welders block!!!!!!

Went back out after helping my son figure out his spelling home work. As I have proven here more than once I can't F'in spell.

Well it was not as bad as I thought originally, I did warp the fender a little more, it had a big dent by the light anyway, so that needs to be taken car of. I burnt through one spot, and I welded my bolt to my reinforcement plate. That was brilliant.

A little grinding, and some seam sealer will fix part of it. I will fix the burn through with a grind and fill, and the fender, well, I guess I need to shrink it, and see if I can get the dent down to a manageable size, it is about 1/4" down right now, want it to be about 1/16ths. I hates bondo!!! A little can be just fine, a lot and I might as well add an anchor to this car. I tend to use JB Weld anyway, don't laugh, it is used for smoothing airframe skins, actually works really well. I had a old body shop guy show me that one.

Hopefully get back on it Tuesday night.

Primed the inner passenger side fender tonight.

And got the rear sway bar finally from my ebay score. And some more pieces for chassis stiffening.

I am seriously think I am being haunted by the racers version DWD - I am off to look for my Priest, I need a Dirk Wright exorcism!

Worked on the teener last night and tonight.

Yesterday first, the test fit of the bar. Both sides are primed and sealed up. So I could do a test fit and check for binding etc.... I need a shorter arm for my outer most adjustments. Will add the strut just to make sure I don't have any problems with it also, but I don't think I will.

Passenger inner Fender.

Second is under tank bar clearance and what a big bar looks like in an area you won't see. Third is front trunk wall clearance.

BTW, the bar on the roller bearings just spins. The design being self centering means no binding what so ever, just smooth operation.

DWD set in and tonight, I removed 20 pounds tar from the floor, for some reason I had spots with 2-3 layers of tar board Trekkor thanks for the tip on the air chisel, set to 30 psi and stuff flew off. I started the Engmann inner log reinforcement kit, I seam filled the fender gap on the drivers side. And I built a set of rear toe adjusters. I got tired of using a clamp to hold my toe until I got the bolts tighten. This way is much easier, thank you Brant for the idea. Inner arm ear reinforcement will be done this winter after engine and tranny drop. I have two more events, checked them over really well knock on wood have not started to tear yet. Next event I will probably rip it right out.

Luckily for me all chassis stiffing takes one point, I already took that point a long time ago. Only thing that can be dinged now would be if I caged the car with suspension points tied into the cage. I was busting butt, forgot to take pictures of all this stuff, except this.

I can't see straight right now. I was running the suspension through full motion today, making sure my sway bar design does not bind etc.... Everything is going well, until I hook the bar up to both sides. I have enough bushing bind on both sides to make suspension hold and allow me to lift the car. I had to run a strap down to the chain and off the car to make it move correctly.

So DWD kicks in, Again!!!!!

Anybody want some crapmeister front poly bushings???? They will be cheap!!!!!

Creak Creak Creak, pop pop pop goes my chassis, another good time to change something else.

did you ream em to fit?

mine have like zero bind (minimal) reamed and slotted

i installed a pair for someone without reaming and yes.. they are extreme bind... even with slots and lots of gorilla jizz weltsheister lube

Thanks for the update...I'll have a busy winter myself.


KT