Any update on him, and his FI system?

Mike

Jake went to SDS on all his engines. I am wondering if hte project is sort of dead.

Every once in awhile I hear some tidbit that makes me think he's still working on it. But who knows?

Darn!!.... I would like to have one of his systems. I know Jake is using SDS, but Kit's system had ignition too....without the huge cost. I could build a megasquirt...but I would like a pre-made system with ignition.

Mike

How is Kit's system working for you Mark?

Funny, I ran across an old Kit Carlson poll thread today, while searching for wiring problem.

He was asking what his product is worth to the forum. Most of the responses ranged from cheap to $500. I don't think it sounded very encouraging to a potential vendor. Looking at what folks are paying for MS and SDS, plus the work involved, an almost turnkey solution is certainly worth more than $500.

Kit Carlson

The KitCarlson system is working great. The data interface (tuning) isn't great, but it's a pre-release system, so I can't really complain. I plan to swap to MegaSquirt in the future, simply because of support and ease of tuning.

I have now switched to full direct ignition with my EFI arrangements since having more experience and a few dozen ignition maps to choose from as well as all the type 4 specific components manufactured.

Dave took time away from his syetm to deal with his dad that was very ill, his dad passed away last year and things have not gotten back to normal for him yet. He is really busy with his primary job and wasn't even able to work with me on a consulting project earlier this year due to his schedule.

He has made strides with his EFI arrangement based on the chats he and I had semi recently. He is concerned with all the BS that comes with being a vendor and I can't say I blame him for having reservations about wanting to go into business for himself!

I think mega squirt really put a damper on his system, thats what cheap things do to good developments so many times.

My megasquirt hits the dyno tomorrow. BTW, you CAN buy an assembled megasquirt......

BTW2...."I" might be doing them.

I can build my own. That's the easy part.

Mike

Jake, I kinda resent the cheap Megasquirt comment. Inexpensive for sure especially if the guy does it himself. Remember, the engine management on my car when I met you in Sacramento was an MS I installed the day before I left and we tuned it on the road. It wasn't perfect but we did 2100 miles and averaged better than 26 mpg going way too fast on one of your 2270 kits. It can handle fueling and ignition just fine.

Done carefully it's a good way to go. The problems with it are the same ones you run into all day. If it's half ass it isn't gonna work. MS gives more opportunity to half ass therefore, more installs are sloppy and the results aren't so good. It's also easy to get in over your head because you learn as you go.

I am sorry that Dave's system hasn't made it to the market. I suspect it would have been a nice option between a "cheap" Megasquirt and more expensive brand name systems.

Dave

I've priced the pre-built MS systems, once you add the harness, etc., etc. you're pretty well the same price range as an SDS.
To me it's a no brainier, I'll take a pro-built SDS over an amateur pre-built MS, order it on a Monday and be programmed (for the most part) and on the road again by the end of the weekend.*
I also have to admit I hate having to use a laptop to program.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with the MS...most of the time if there is problems it's user/builder error.

*Note fuel only, both systems would need engine removial and trigger fab for crankfire.

Jake, i fail to see how cheap can be bad, especially that your comment implies that megasquirt is bad development. i dont know if you are aware of it, but MS has been in development ever since the late 80's. and has been installed on thousands of cars worldwide. it has the best GUI out there (if you don;t count the big $$$$ units), it's the cheapest (by far), and with the online support and the readily assembled units, the install is on the easy side.
I in no way have anything to do with the team that put MS together, but i really do not understand your attitude. after all only the best make it in competitive markets (that is why you are so succesfull when it comes to engine building), and so far, MS has proved to be one of the best systems out there if you can cope with the DIY stuff. I for example installed it on my subaru EJ20 engine, and eventhough i didn't know anything about EFI when i first started, i was able to get my engine running (with electronic ignition mind you) in no more than 2 weeks, after i got around assembling the unit. it' sure is a steep learning curve, but the online support is excellent.
So why not start with MS, offer a full harness and downloadable fuel and ignition tables for specific applications? this should allow for a tunable EFI system tailored around a type IV application but at the same time it would not limit any future developments and can even be used on any other car, if the consumer were to decide so.

Just my 0.02$

regards

Nick

It all comes down to what you're comfortable with. To and information nut like me, MegaSquirt gives me access to every piece of information it's gathering. SDS is far too limited for me. I'm sure it's easy to tune, but some guys need to see more nuts and bolts. Dave and I (and others) just need all the info.


The real question is.... what separates the FUNCTIONING of the different fuel injections. Tuning process ignored, and assuming everything is equally well built and installed, is there any functional difference between SDS, KitCarlson, or MegaSquirt? I know both MegaSquirt and KitCarlson use a combination of TPS and MAP to determine intake air quantity (I've never looked at an SDS setup). What other differences are there?

Sorry about that fellas..

The problem that remains with things like Mega squirt is that it keeps other things from being developed due to lack of demand..
Everyone wants to go the cheapest way possible, even when they shouldn't..

A good example of that is the 914, when other alternatives for power bacame available CHEAPER the demand for my developments was reduced so I don't do any further developments that are 914 specific- its just not smart.

I haven't tested MS as thoroughly as I would like but will be doing that over the winter more than likely...

BTW- Dave mentions "Half assed"... The fact is when most people have the opportunity to half ass something they do it.

Dave isn't in this realm- if he does it I know its done right.

The other issue is too many options on systems- the more gadgets a system has the more parts it has to break AND the better the chance that the user can't interface completely and learn the system initmately. Thats the reason why I like SDS, its got everything it needs and is easy to get the most out of without effort..

Does the KitCarlson use a crankfire method, or is it using the supplied dizzy to fire the injectors?

Crankfire..
The dizzy with his system was for signal only.

It worked very well for me for about 12000 miles.

See and that's the rub, computer guys cannot get their heads around a simpler system on paper. They think they will be lost with out every bit of info...most of which is just useless clutter. Like TimT found out, once you have actually used the system your attitude changes.

SDS is just as powerful as any system on the market except maybe super fund systems like Motec.
SDS is a TPS and MAP system.



The term "crankfire" is for ignition only. Yes it does fire the injectors, but only because you no longer have the stock dizzy/coil to get a tach signal from.

exactly!
All the bullshit bells and whistles IMPEDE TUNING more than they help it!

Trust me guys, I have used 7 different systems all tested on the same engine and I'll tell you right now that SDS was the best unit all around....

I'd love to have a dyno shootout with all the systems in 2007, including Motec- the new dyno will make it much easier to do this type of comparison. I love busting the balls of expensive systems with simpler and better engineered things. It happens almost weekly around here!

I've got to get on the bus with Mark and Jake on this one. SDS works. But like anything from cell phones to ice cream cones, one size doesn't fit all, and everyone will have their favorites for their own reasons. The thing I fall back on is: what are your project goals, what are your own strengths/weaknesses. I could have built a MS system, waded thru and gotten lost a couple times with all the options, and made it work. I looked at the prices for the ready built MS gear/harness/stimulator boards and such, and came back to goals. The features of the SDS did everything I needed now, and could forsee needing tomorrow, without alot of extra "features" to clutter and confuse things. And I see the SDS as being flexable enough to work on ANY 4 cyl system, so if I *gasp* put a turbo subie in the car, the SDS works. If I convert back to factory EFI and use the SDS on a 4 cyl Dmod autocrosser, it works. If I leave it in my type 4 powered 914, and add a turbo, or 2316, it still works. And it worked the first time I turned the key.

If I was a total information geek, (and I use that term with respect), or mounting a total effort on auto cross or track, I might shop elsewhere for systems with more data aqusition built in, or look for some other after market systems to log more stuff. But for me, my project, my goals, my strengths/weaknesses, SDS was the play. Do your own research, make your own decisions, and go for it.

Jake, are you talking about Suburu engines and the like?






Rather than looking at it this way, I see the market as tiered. Just as with the car market, there is room for half a million dollar Ferraris and Porsches at the top, lots of cars between $500K and $15K, and then even ultra cheap new cars at $10K. The existance of $10K cars doesn't put anyone else out of business.

Bare bones DIY Megasquirt is probably $250 total with soldering it and finding sensors in the junkyard. It's $500 if you buy a pre-soldered kit but there is still the 40-60 hours of figuring stuff out, laying out the harness, and tuning. On top of that you need a wide band o2 setup so at minimum add in another $200. It's a huge time committement for someone with the mind of a rocket scientist.

SDS seems pretty reasonable after you add everything up on the Megasquirt side. I think the market is actually larger for more turn-key easier to get going systems. I would even guess that the existance of Megasquirt stimulates sales of SDS systems. The more people people that do the home brew Megasquirt projects and talk about EFI on the boards is like free marketing to companies like SDS who offer a much less time intensive and maybe more reliable product.

The "original" purpose of the MS was for a DIY'er to do it all on thier own, I feel the offering of pre-built kits has ruined the basic concept of it, like you say, you are not saving that much money for having a device with no factory support.

I feel it's the people that have bought and support/build the pre-built units have taken away the spirt of the Megasquirt and now it is viewed as a "cheap" alternative to a factory built unit.

I got some sort of pride saying I "built" and soldered my Megasquirt even with the problems I had with it, now anyone can just buy one and run it...and I'd have to say that 99% of the people that buy a pre-built unit are just being "cheap" 'cause they can save a few hundred bucks over a factory unit....

The megasquirt is definately cheaper than any other option if you're willing to root around getting accessories on the cheap. I am out no more than $500 for my complete setup, which was MUCH less than any of the other options.

I don't feel like buying a kit violates the spirit of the project. You can still build the whole thing yourself, but there are many people that would rather spend their time tinkering with the software aspect than soldering a board together. Also - the megasquirt is the easiest kit I've EVER put together. It was easier than some of IKEA's products to get together, thanks to very clear documentation - so I don't think I agree that putting an MS together is actually ALL that much of an achievement. I still enjoy the fact that I did put mine together; but I didn't design the PCB, or even source the components. The DIY-WB was much harder to figure out - and I don't feel as good about it as I do about the megasquirt.

The big problems megasquirt has are around wiring harnesses and weatherproofing, IMHO - and these are the things that require the individual to step into the fold and do some engineering.

What I don't really understand though is why Kit decided to build the whole thing from scratch. It seems like he could have applied his talents to making a more polished megasquirt kit that had the typeIV wiring harness and some improved UI features (perhaps eliminating some of the bells and whistles), and would have been able to get further faster by leveraging the community, and the community could even help by keeping development going whilst Kit has been absent.

As for starting a company to compete with SDS and Megasquirt - it seems that this would be a very difficult proposition. I doubt that the market is big enough, and he will need a market differentiator... It either needs to be cheaper (very hard given megasquirt's cost effectiveness) - demonstrabily superior (one guy is going to out-engineer several established products and a very active user community?) - or perhaps more reliable, but this too would require a lot of testing and ... expense.

Is Megasquirt "Cheap" - in the quality and low craftsmanship sense of the word? I suspect that the reason for the other commercial systems' expense is that somebody is trying to make a living by producing them. Keeping 4 or 5 people employed with health insurance and working full time on product development, manufacturing, documentation, support, payroll, etc, requires some significant cashflow. The genius of Megasquirt is that the principal guys working on it don't really have any of these problems. It's an "experimental" kit, so documentation is optional and is often filled in by the community, and the same goes for the management software and the support. Given it's experimental status, it's hard to argue that there should be better support, whereas the customer who layed out a couple of grand expects somone to be on the end of a phone, solving their problem.

The Megasquirt is quite mature at this point, having been around for at least 4 years and running on many cars - things that broke got re-engineered until they worked well enough to be used on a daily basis. I suspect there are still lingering problems with it that won't become clear for perhaps many years. It's hard to say weather or not those problems are really there, or if they are there in the commercial systems.

This all makes me very skeptical of the claim that one system is better than the others. I haven't seen an argument yet that has gone to the trouble of laying out exactly what one system does better than the others that is measurable and beyond personal preference.

So I think it's hard to say that one system is "better" than the other. Like many things - I think it's just down to the preferences of the individual at the wheel, and what their definition of better is. This is of course fine - if we were all the same, life would be terribly boring!

This is of course my opinion, and in some cases just speculation, so your milage will vary depending on your target AFR table, and other factors.

What I feel makes the MS units less reliable is that everything depends on the soldering techniques.. The early Kit carlson system was the same and dave had to make a repair here at my shop when one of his soldering jobs went south. That would have left anyone else on the side of the road if it hadn't happened on the dyno. He paid the money to have the units production soldered last I heard.

If a wire ever makes me walk I'll be so furious that I'll rip the whole system out on the spot and throw it in front of the first tractor trailer that passes by to get smashed into a million pieces!

Fair play - that is definately a problem. The choice of that DB37 connector is also highly dubious.

Something wave-soldered by a real production company would clearly be better in that regard.

Fiid, aside from waterproofness how reliable do you think Megasquirt is? I was talking to Jeff Keyser at the last BBQ about his MS setup and he feels the need to always carry the laptop around in the car. It wasn't clear if that was because he was still in the tuning/tweaking stage but it just sounded like something he wasn't comfortable leaving home without.

I drive all over without the laptop. Usually if I have it along it's because People want to see the display or play with it. I put MS on my car in early 2004. For the most part it's been trouble free. I've had 2 road problems. One was a failed CHT sensor that flooded the engine and stopped it right now. The other was a broken connection in the DB 37 which stopped me. Fortunately I did have the laptop and I tuned it to run with now imput from the MAP sensor.

I fried a flyback circuit in the garage by hooking 12v to a ground. In a couple of days I had a new board up and running and good to go. I tuned it on I-5 driving from Washington to California.

I think it's very reliable with this stipulation. It is only as good as the assembly and install. I assembled both of my own boards and these were the first electical boards I've ever done. The assembly is like cooking, if you don't take any shortcuts and pay attention, it works. I still don't know how zener diodes work or any of the other components work. Anyone can do these.

Dave

I don't think any of the systems are waterproof, some of the high-end systems may be water resistant. Our cars do have problems leaking water, but as long as place the unit in a dry area this should never be an issue. Just a matter of using common sense.

I have a water tight box that came with my Autronic unit... BUT I'm concerned with ECU temperature...

Kit Carlson had a temp sensor on the circuit board- rather nifty if you ask me!

make teh box out of metal--huge heatsink

till it gets heat soaked...

oh the blasphemy!

Curse the aircooled ECU

try a heatsink, or bolt it to a t4 head

I know you could *EASILY* CNC a heatsink faster than I can sneeze...or call a customer and explain how to order pizza