The RRC was a great motivation to re-start my Subaru conversion. On Thursday, I took my EJ25 (in boxes) to the machine shop to get pistons, rings, and bearings put in. It took the guy about 5 seconds before he said : "cylinder's cracked". Doh ! I could hardly see it, but I could feel it plain as day. That put the cost of continuing with this motor way above what a CSOB like me felt comfortable with. I'd need to pick up a new block, add align-boring and crank polishing, while you're there..., yada yada yada.

For anybody trying to keep count, that makes bad engine experience #3 in about a year. First was the ebay scam for a $800 phase-I EJ25 that never arrived. Second was the 2.0 that came in my 914, which gave up the ghost 2 weeks before RRC.

So, in order not to become completely frustrated, I went out an hour later and picked up another (running, this time) engine. Since I started reading about Subie engines, I had always been intrigued by the EG33, the 3.3L engine from the Subaru SVX. Well, that's what I got. A '94, about 120k, smooth running, and 150 psi on all six cylinders. (Yes, including cylinder #5.) It was listed at $600, I said I'd think about it, he said $450, and I bought it on the spot. The sucker is pretty huge, pretty heavy, but it does fit in a 914 and the stock 230 HP should make up for a little extra weight.

That's going to be a wicked conversion... can't wait to see it.

NICE!!! Thats a really sweet engine. I've heard many people call it bulletproof. I assume you are doing a front mounted radiator....

You going to run the stock ECU and stuff?

-Tony

here's a few pics of the engine as I received it.

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And what happens when you put on some latex gloves and go at it (well, unless you're SLITS or Howard )

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Thats a really nice looking engine. You know what would be really slick on one of these Subaru engines is a set of individual throttle bodies. Just the minimal amount of hoses and tubing etc.

And then maybe a 911 style cooling shroud. OH WAIT! Its water cooled, so no need for that.

-Tony

For the mount, I think I'm gonna copy Amenson's idea for PorSTi. The bottom side of each head has three beefy bolt holes located in a plane parallel to the ground. Nice and easy for a CAD-less newbie fabricator like me. I'm gonna make a plate that bolts up to the engine, and run two rails forward from these to rest on the stock 914 engine bar.

Ignition is definitely gonna be EDIS, and FI will be MegaSquirt, or possibly a homebrew variation of it. One cool thing about the EG33 is the intake system. Each side is independent, and there's a vacuum-controlled system (called IRIS) that actually changes the length of the intake runners from long (below 4000 RPM) to short. So the system is optimized for low end torque AND high end power. Haven't seen the innards of how it works, but its run from a simple on/off switch which magasquirt can toggle. Might be fun to have manual control of this just to feel the difference.

Tranny is still gonna be a Subaru 4wd converted to 2wd. That way replacemants are available for $60 a pop.

Cooling : Hmmm. Definitely didn't wana lose the front trunk. Might have to. But I am having some strange thoughts for how I can avoid it.

As for the engine, I'm prolly gonna replace all the seals/gaskets I can get at. Haven't decided about head gaskets : its easy to do while the engine is out, but OTOH, it ain't broke. Also gonna change the timing belt and water pump. And it still needs a little more cleaning...

Well, if you look in the first picture, you can see that the intake manifold itself is a seperate beast from the set of 3 (per side) little intake tubes which house the injectors. When you remove just the manifold, you have a nice flat surface (parallel to the ground) that just screams ITB at you. On the subaru-svx.net forums, it's like a mantra that you really can't improve on the performance of the EG33 intake system, but for simple sexiness it might be worth it.

Actually, that brings up the goofy cooling idea I alluded to earlier. Suppose you ditch the manifold, add intake runners that curve towards the front of the engine (either 3 tubes, or 3-into-1). Then, between the top of the engine and the engine lid of the 914 there's a fair amount of space; maybe enough for a (near-) horizontal radiator ? Air bubbles would naturally migrate up from the engine, to the radiator, and if it's tipped up just a little towards the front, they would migrate there. You'd still need a small additional tank a tiny bit higher for the bubbles to migrate to, but it wouldn't need to be much. Anyway, a belt-driven fan could force air to the underside (between the radiator and the engine) and the air would flow upwards through the radiator and on out the engine lid. Now I just need to find an L-shaped radiator so I could still have an alternator. Or maybe I'll put the alternator up in the front trunk and run it off of an electric motor.

Anyway, this whole cooling idea is still squarely in the category of hair-brained ideas that I haven't quite been able to shake. It's definitely not something that I have decided to do.

Here's a few pics (not mine) of an EG33 in a 914. They kind of give a sense of how much room there is to work with. Also, you can see the short intake stubs without the manifold. (Intake stubs are covered w/ duct tape, injector bungs stuffed w/ white paper.)

pic 1

pic 2

pic 3

Second Fiid's remark - going to be a wicked conversion!
I've been waiting for someone to finally stuff a nice Suby 6 into a -14.
It does scream out for a set of ITB's though! Probably would loose somewhere - but the look would be killer!
Going to run a WRX tranny?
I'll be

Jeff

bummer about the other engine jeff. weren't we just talking about a suby 6 on the phone hte other day Divine inspiration, I say.

Nice clean up job. Ferg would be proud.

never been eBay scammed but a few tried like Hey the auction you lost is now available but deal with "me", not the seller.

my first Audi engine "just needed a belt", he forgot to mention 30 sodium valves and rebuilding...

Glad to hear you found a good donor!

Nice!!

That engine just looks like it was made to go in a 914.

Oh yes, I think ITBs are in order. I hadn't noticed the injector stubs and how they are perfectly set up for ITBs. I think you'd have the ultimate engine bay if you mounted the radiator and battery up front and had ITBs on that.

As far as exhaust goes, you could copy my exhaust system and because its a 6 it would work even better. That is one nice engine. It really does fit like it was designed for the engine bay.

-Tony

When I first started learning about this engine, I thought it would be really sweet (if it fit). It's got forged crank, rods, & pistons, it's non-interference, and failures (like, e.g., head gaskets) are very rare compared to the EJ25. And because the cars they go in (the SVX) are so rare, maintaining the "cosmetic" stuff like seats, windshields, spoilers, ... is becoming $$$, so the engines are downright cheap. Mine came out of a car that was "totalled" because the interior was trashed. I know this is a strange thing to say, but it's actually got more power than I want; I'll have to get used to it, I guess. Anyway, I won't need to "build it up" like this guy :

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(frank aragona, jr)


Yeah, when the hours grew long, when I grew weary, when the will to scrub had left me, I asked myself : WWFD ?

jsteele, I'm glad you're undertaking the EG33 swap. I started mine over a year ago (those pics are from my car last year), but have been interrupted by doing bodywork/paint and am now changing jobs and moving. I think it's a perfect fit for the 914. I swapped the intake around on mine so I wouldn't have to cut into the trunk. With no power steering or ac condensor I just have to worry about the alternator. I'm planning on using a front mounted radiator. I've also been looking into some Outback headers they make for the 3.3L. I've trial fitted mine with the stock exhaust headers and they clear the shift bar (I'm still planning on using the stock tranny). Glad to see you are underway. Best of luck.

Given the fact that you have no Avatar, I think you should use that pretty engine pic.

And to answer your question WWFD? Ferg would buy a new car if it was dirty

Nice conversion Jeff! Can't wait to see it!

I saw an add in a dune buggy mag last year that makes a set of Carbs for these motors. If you wanted to get started quick, you might grab a set while you finalize the fuel injeciton.

I'd be interested in seeing such a conversion! Any web info on this?
I saw, IIRC, a 2.2 converted to dual Webers with custom and rather crude manifolds. A set of manifold adapters would be the ticket!

With some simple adapters (or maybe a simpler re-drilling the manifold?) a set of Jenvey ITBs could be dropped right on the 3.3 lower intake. Not sure how the TWM 3bbl TB's would line up? All you need are the butterflies, air horns, linkage and filters.....
Definitely get some center to center distances between intake openings in that lower manifold while you've got it apart!
You'd still need crank fired ignition, so IMO it only makes sense to stick with some form of EFI.
Jeff

Cool, glad to hear it's still in the works. I recall hearing that someone out there already had an EG33 running in a 914, but right before I went to look at the motor, I just had to check one more time that it would fit. That's when I came across your pix.

I'm curious : have you managed to get the alternator mounted with the intake manifold reversed ? On the EG25's, I 've seen that a custom mounting bracket is needed. I don't have an alternator yet, so I haven't looked at that issue very closely.

About the exhaust, the ones from Outback are $250 and appear to be fairly low profile (i.e., not too close to the ground). Also, there is a flange available from Small car Performance for fabbing up custom exhaust.I don't have the stock manifolds; how low are they compared to the oil pan ? I really haven't decided anything on exhaust yet. For cooling, realistically, I think it's gonna have to be a front radiator. My floor is already chopped up there from a (removed) A/C system.

I should probably look into the dune buggy world a little; I know that this engine is reall popular with those folks. As for carbs, I think I'll pass. I'm pretty comfortable with electronics & computers, so working on an EFI system doesn't worry me a whole lot. Carbs, OTOH, confuse the %^& out of me.

But don't get the wrong impression, I usually don't pass on carbs.

Happy now ? I don't think the admins would like it if I used a picture of boobies :

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jsteele, the stock exhaust manifolds do come down a couple of inches below the oil pan. I was not planning on modding the oil pan so that's why I was considering the Outback headers. As for the alternator, I haven't figured out where I will place it. It can't go in it's original location in the center with the intake flipped around. It will either have to mount where the power steering pump was, where the ac condensor was, or a remote location. Not sure yet where I'm going to put it.

Great idea to get an EG33 in the teener, in fact it was my first project, until some basic calculations proved that an engine bay mounted cooling system won't be enough to cool down that engine, most of all because of the small clearance between engine and bulkhead (remember that however big the radiator is, it'll b only as good as the air you can get to flow through it) so i ditched it for a JDM N/A ej20. the EG33 is one of the greatest engines out there, practically bulletproof (suby guys seem to worship that engine, and understandably so). but keep in mind that the cooling's gonna be really hard. i'd hate to see your conversion stopped because of that.
and, an advice on the runners, don't worry about ITBs they really don't make that much of a difference compared to the original runners, and they'll give you headaches if you'll be using MS, since you'll have to dampen the the pressure waves if you don't want your MAP reading to go crazy. plus, it'll only help flatten the torque and power curve ,with minimal power gain (according to the simulation i made on engine analyzer pro), the original runners are really very well designed.
Best of luck on your conversion.
Nick
P.S: if you need adapter flanges to mate your 914 half shafts to the suby tranny, let me know, the more we order the cheaper they'll get...

Yeah, the "top-mounted" radiator idea was just a hair-brained scheme I had. Once I looked at helo914's pics again, I realized what you said : there's no room for air to come from below.

And about the ITB's, I really don't think I'll go there -- enough to deal with already. I don't have any ilusions of them improving anything; it's just a cosmetic thing. I'm actually pretty curious to see how well that IRIS system works. It would be fun to hook up a manual switch so I can turn it on and feel the difference at high RPM.

Nick, what are your thoughts on exhaust ? Both the stock manifold and the Outback "header" both do an immediate 3-into-1. The majority opinion at subaru-svx.net is that with 240 degrees of rotation between valve openings (per side) there's no problem of one cylinder causing a positive pressure at the valve opening of another cylinder on the same side. But the stock SVX exhaust system is fairly complicated and carefully tuned. Do you think the immediate 3-into-1 system would work well with a simple dual exhaust setup (left and right each have their own muffler and tailpipe) ?

And finally, I'm very curious about the tranny adapter flanges. I heard there was gonna be a big announcement this week or so ?

For the exhaust, IIRC the custom headers i had planned on using in order to improve midrange grunt, were 3-into-1 on each bank and then both banks would be connected by a crossover pipe for a better sounding engine.
I just found the dimensions:
40 inch primaries (1.25 inch diameter)
16 inch collectors (2 inch diameter)

Dont mean to highjack but... I just started up my DoubleCab Vanagon EJ33 conversion for the 1st time yesterday. 2 year project. Went for a short test drive yesterday and it seems quick. I have temp exhaust on it (resonator only) and it sounds wicked. like a Ferrari with glasspacks!

Its a very nicely engineered motor just like the WRX motor with 2 extra cylinder and 2 massive throttle bodies. Still have some details to work out before a full on test drive.

Dont overlook using the SVX injection system, works fine and all the engineering is done. One thing to remember on these project is if your scope is too large you are unlikely to ever finish.

SmallCar are the best folks for engine mounts, headers, etc...

cheers John

That sounds like a great project and would love to see some pics.

As for the exhaust headers, I don't know if the Outback headers will get you more performance or not. I am interested in them due to their low profile. The SVX fuel injection system, while a little complicated, is very effecient and works well. I have a main harness and ECU and hope to be able to wire it up with a few resistors in place.

One source for ECU type stuff for the EJ33 is ECUTune, Inc. www.ecutune.com They specialize in SVX cars so any questions regarding aftermarket ecu's etc would probably be welcome.

Ed aka W9R1

So the 16 inch distance , is that from the 3-1 collector to a muffler, or is that the distance to where the crossover is located ? Finding room for a crossover might be a little tricky; I haven't looked at that yet.

Sounds like a cool project, John. I definitely hear your advice about keeping things undedr control. For better or for worse, though, one of the big things I look forward to with this car is tweaking & prototyping stuff with Megasquirt. That, and maybe also driving it someday....

jeff,
i can bring the trailer down on the 21st, but i was also thinking of bringing paul's car to the workshop. any chance you could coordinate with brew to get your car there on friday?

dude what an awesome idea! with all these subie swaps goin on i never even thought about a subie6.

the EZ30 would be a great platform too.

g/l with the swap and obviously you'll let us know how it goes. Cant wait to see it.

_billy

The 16 inch distance is that from the 3-into-1 collector to the crossover pipe, on my EJ20 it was fairly easy, but on your EG33 it could get much more complicated, due to packaging the extra two exhaust pipes, getting them to fit the collector at the right length, and then to the crossover pipe, and the mufflers, but remember that your tranny is much shorter than the 901, so there should be no problem in fitting the crossover pipe if you get a little creative.... i'll try to pm you the sketches i had done for my setup
Regards
Nick

IIRC, from my research into the 3.3 H6, the whole engine was designed and optimized to work as a package - from the intake system, heads, cams out through the exhaust. Cam timing closely matches intake design as well as exhaust layout. The exhaust primary pipes didn't need to be anything elaborate (any more than the factory headers), but the length from the primary collectors to the 2-1 collector after that was critical. If building from scratch and keeping everything else "as factory", I'd shoot for keeping the exhaust primary length and tube size close to the OEM factory system, at least up to where both sides joint together. That may be the dimension you recommended Hydra?

There is a chip upgrade for that engine (I'm sure you've checked out) that provides a substantial power boost. Then there's the supercharger....

But with some head porting... cam upgrade... ITB's and custom headers... watch out! (I'd sure like to see and read about such an engine!)

Jeff

Yeah, the stock system really was very well designed, and most attempts at changing it seem to make it worse. Unfortunately, the stock system is also pretty complicated, and I can't imagine making a copy of it fit. The "pre-cats" (one on either side) are apparently crucial to eliminating an annoying "tinny" sounding resonance at certain RPMs. An exhaust pulse from the RHS travels over to the LHS just in time for an exhaust pulse there to reinforce it; this pulse travels back to the RHS just in time for another pulse, and so on. The pre-cats supress this, I think, by acting as resonators. Anyway, I think "real" headers (i.e., with a non-trivial runner length) would also avoid this, as the pulse would be divided by three each time it traveled upstream.

My understanding of the crossover (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just typing from vague recollection) is that a pressure wave from an exhaust valve opening travels down the primary, past the collector, and then reflects off of the impedance mismatch at the muffler (or open tailpipe), sending a negative pressure wave (suction) back up towards the engine. The crossover is placed so that the negative wave on one side coincides with the positive wave on the other, so they cancel each other out somewhat.
So to place the crossover, I think you need to know the runner length AND the distance from the collector to the muffler (or open tailpipe).

SOT but I saw this conversion

That conversion is using the older 6 cylinder that came in the Subaru XT (I think) the wierd space ship looking one. Uses the older Subaru technology and the power is way down from a EG33. Still the car looks like a lot of fun and priced right for someone!

John

per request, some pix of my EG33 in my Vanagon Doublecab from today

the underside, still temp exhaust on

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the top

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Jeff,

That is an awesome engine, I got my 914 in June and have had that engine in mind before I even got the car. Definitely check out the www.smallcar.com site they have a lot of stuff that will help, like exhaust flanges and the motor mount that you are talking about. Where did you find the engine for $450, damn thats cheap. If you can find another engine like that I'll take it.

My cooling idea, let me know what you think. I was thinking of relocating the battery to the front and the relay board to the firewall then cutting holes from the engine bay to the fender well and putting two smaller radiators on the sides with the fans pulling air through the rad. and into the fender well. I think the negative pressure in the fender well would pull a lot of air through the rad and keep the natural airflow through the engine bay. I am curious what people think about this idea and if that area sheetmetal can be cut open without reinforcement. I too would like to do this same conversion and not mount the rad in the front.

Anybody have any ideas where to mount the battery in the front trunk?

the 3.3 was the first engine i looked at to put in my 914. then i looked a a 4 cyl engine and thought about the radiator in the engine bay. at that point i gave up on the 3.3 thought because i really wanted to keep my front trunk.

if you really wanted a suby six, i would bet the ej30 which is only 1 inch longer than the ej25 or 22 would work with a engine bay mounted rad and a gt oil cooler type set up in the front trunk as an aux raditor. the engine bay mounted rad would keep the engine cool while idleing and the small front rad would give the boost needed at high way speeds. that way you would only loose a little of the front trunk. now i would also throw an electric water pump to force water to the front trunk, and vent the front rad out of the wheel wells so it was not dumping the heat under the car to be sucked up into the rear rad

I just did a search on carpart.com, sorted results by distance. Although these engines have a real following amongst dune buggy and airplane folks, that's a pretty small market. The number of SVX's out there is steadily declining, and most often due to things other than the engine. I was kind of suprised how quickly the guy bumped the price down from $600 to $450. If you're willing to pay more, you can get JDM motors (usually east or west coast) with supposedly 40-60k miles; that's just getting broken in.





Might work, might not. My hunch is that it wouldn't be enough. That's just by a crude estimate : Imagine the size (area) of a "normal" radiator. Now cut that in half. Each of those halves (as I picture it in my mind) would be way to big to fit in the space you're describing.

I've resigned myself, for now, to the idea that I'm gonna put the radiator up front. Proabably my least favorite (hence last) part of the conversion.

About the battery, one thnig to keep in mind is that ypou want it to be as close to the starter as possible. The starter draws a buttload of current, and the resistive looses in long cable(s) can be significant. I'd think the rear trunk would be preferable from that point of view.

Use a Slightly larger Battery cable. There are hundreds of SBC cars running around w/ the battery in the front trunk (it's already got a radiator in it, so not loosing any space) and no major resistance based problems.

BJH

ive been lookin at this option also and the cost is about the same as a good sti 2.5 the 3.0 is a direct replacement for the 2.0/2.5 in the liberty/legacy, only major problem i could see was the intake cant be spun around like the ej's but its made of prlatic so maybe then plastic

hope you come into some better luck soon

All BMW 3 series (E36) have a trunk mounted battery for weight distribution. Not sure what cable was used but I never had problems with current drop. I think the span on the 914 would be less than the BMW also....

Jeff, you said you did a search on carpart.com is that where you found your engine. I just checked that site and I couldn't find any engines, did I look in the wrong spot.

The side rad idea would use two rads about 14"x14" each, which should be more area than the original svx rad. The rads would have shrouds around them so that all of the air being pulled through the holes in the fender wells would all have to be pulled through the rad. In order for any engine bay radiator to work I think you definitely need to find and use a negative pressure source IMO.

I was going to start with a EJ22 from a 90 to 94 Legacy which I can buy a whole car around here for about $600, then use as much of the engine, ECU, radiator and fans as possible and if it all worked with the side rads then I would try to get a EG33 and drop that in.

Did someone say you can use the stock 914 shift bar with the EG33 engine?

I also like the idea of using the stock 914 engine mount bar with an adapter for the EG33 do you think something like this would work on the EJ22 engine.

You'll be fine with a 4-gauge cable from the battery back to the starter. On W9R1 we run an Optima yellowtop with 4 gauge cable back to a distribution block. The cable goes through the block and on to the high-torque starter. No issues here

So if anyone tells you to go 2 gauge (which happened to us), don't waste the money.

you have to remember that the EJ mounts are located at the rear of the engine, so if you are to use the 914 engine bar, the engine mount will be acting on the 914's mounts like a giant lever, and considering the EJ weight it won't be a bright idea unless you also fasten the mount somewhere on the body behind the engine... my 2 cents

If you have the room i think you could use the Small Car mount and bolt or weld the 914 bar on. I think someone is already doing this with the WRX motor. You just need to make sure how much room there is.

John