So I swapped to a 2.0 and a new mini-starter and everything has been starting fine for the last two weeks. I went to tune the carbs last night and it started fine. After the car warmed up I shut it off to remove the carb linkage. (I think it's easier to adjust this way) When I tried to start it, all I got was a loud "ping".

I checked the battery and it was a bit low. I charged it all night and no difference, so I bought a new battery. Still only got the ping. So I check and clean all grounds, checked the voltage regulator wiring. Everything is in tip-top shape. Tried it start, PING! All the gauge lights dim like maybe the starter will turn, but it never does. I tried turning the engine by hand and it turns fine. It sounds like the starter gear is just coming out and hitting the flywheel, and never turning.


Any ideas?

Did you whack it with a wooden mallet?

It sounds like the starter motor has a stuck/locked rotor. I bet the amp draw is incredible. Don't try starting it for too long in this condition.

The easiest thing to do would be to drop the starter out and bench test it outside the car.

You might want to call whoever you bought it from. Isn't it warrantied?

did you get the right starter?? A bug one won't work as it just barely engauges the teeth.

It's the evilbay model that said it was for 914/911. They still could have sent the wrong one, but it was working fine for 2 weeks. :shrug:

I'll try the mallet when I get home from work.

Oh put the same one in 2 weeks ago. I hope it's not a regular defect.

WOT...

Your post reminded me of this....

Monty Python - The Machine that goes "PING".

Push start the car, and then kill it and try the starter again.

Is the timing right?

With my high compression engine, if the tiiming is too high, the starter just won't push past that first ignition point (10.5 to 1, webers, high lift cam). Back off the timing advance a degree or two (rotate dizzy clockwise just a fraction) just to see if it makes a difference.

I can't push start because I don't have the throttle stuff hooked up yet. I still need to make my throttle bracket for the webers.



I just set it the day before this happened. 27 degree at 3500rpm on the nose. Valves were adjusted just prior to setting timing.

Ok, I took the starter off and bench tested it. It ran fine. Gear popped out and spun like nuts.

Cleaned the positive terminal at the starter and ran a wire wheel around the starter mounting surface on the tranny. Re-installed the starter, getting a strong 12.8 volts from the new battery... and nothing, just the good old PING noise.

I hooked up the remote start trigger for shits and giggles, same result.

WTF is going on!!


My only option is too put the original starter back on and see if that will start it. Do you think I could take the mini-starter to the FLAPS and have it tested? Maybe it just can't perform under load?

Look up inside the starter hole and see if you see "shiny" cut back teeth. If you run the wrong starter long enough, it will grind off the very leading edge of the teeth on the ring gear. Sooner or later it wont engage.

Stick a stock starter back on it and test it.


B

Teeth looked fine.

Put the stock starter in and it worked fine, car started. I'm sure it won't start it after it gets hot though.

Funny thing is, I bench tested the stocker to make sure it worked before I went through the trouble of installing it, and it spun faster/harder than the mini-starter. There must be a motor issue with the mini-starter. Time to see if evilbay man will warrenty his product.

Keep us informed because i was >< close to buying one of them ity bitty starters from the evilbay man.

I have had the mini starter for a few years now and it turns my rebuilt 2.7 all day long. Just FYI. I think Mamacita had the same starter and the gear broke off. Maybe just a bad batch, but the guy warranteed it.

Mamacita has a BOSCH rebuilt.

Are you sure? I thought that she bought the Ebay one.

I buy my gear reduction starters from IMI out of LA. They are the ones who designed the aluminum adapters and gear drives for the Japanese style/Honda starters to be used on ALL cars.

It makes sense that the smaller starter would appear to spin slower.. it is designed to have more torque.



B

its having performance anxiety....

give it a minute, and tell it that it happens to everystarter....

OT:I just got a brand new 911 starter from Mueller in the mail yesterday.

It spins like this.... *SNAPPOP*WINGDIINNNGGGG DING DING DING WIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DING SNAP!

Which reminds me. THANKS, MUELLER!!!!!!

I talked to the guy and the starter does have a 1 year warrenty. He gave me the info to ship it back and I could have it replaced or my money refunded, whichever I liked.

Very nice guy.

Nice to hear that he's standing behind it. I'm pretty sure my hot start problem at RRC was because my tranny was warm because of a fluid leak that let it get too low. I'm hoping to get the tranny back in tomorrow, but if the starter still has a problem I was seriously thinking of one of his mini-starters. Keep us posted on how it does.

Well I got my replacement about 1 week ago, just finished putting it in the car. Turned the key and it started. So I shut it off, turned the key again and PING!!!

Now all it does is ping like the last one. I don't get it. How can this starter work for so many people, yet want to give me the hardest time in the world. I'm done with this thing. It's refund time and I guess I'll buy a reman bosch or get a 911 starter.


(I did notice that both starter have the gear pop out and then turn. The stocker does not pop out, it just turns. I assume that's what the problem is, I don't know.)

Your mini-starter is hitting something and not fully extending while installed.

Can you shim it slightly out and check to see if it will start then.

Those starters don't spin unless the starter gear pops out completely.

I believe that this is why it works on the bench, but not in your car.

The starter gear may also be interfering with the flywheel teeth (and not fully extending).

Good luck, and I hope that you get it repaired.

Something is not alligned correctly if the drive can not extend all the way. Maybe if you took some pics of the engien to tranny interface, and the starter mount we could figure out what the problem is.

Sounds like a personal problem to me...


I have had good luck with my evilbay ministarter...and it spins over an LS6 with 11.3 to compression. They say this little starter puts out 525 ft lbs of torque...so it should spin your motor without a problem. Must be a dimensional/alignment issue. Compare the dimensions to your stock starter and note the differences if any. Then proceed by possibly shimming the mini starter (assuming it mounts too close). Just an idea.

Put my stock starter back in and now it does it too. Isn't the stocker a direct drive?


Could this be related to the fasten seatbelt system on the 74's?

No. If you are hearing a ping then it is trying to extend the bendix drive but is not able to all of the way. Something is obstructing it. Check your engine to tranny bolts to make sure they are all tightened and that the case is not cocked.

I'm still at work, but I plan to work this out tonight. Today was supposed to be the car's first voyage on the road in 7 years.

Anyway, I'm going to check the engine/tranny bolts and make sure they're tight, and the tranny case is flush with the engine.

After that, I'll start messing with shims. When you guys are talking about shimming it, do you mean add a washer or two between the starter and tranny case on the bolts to move in further in/out or are you suggesting to put them on the sides to angle towards/away from the flywheel teeth? I guess I'll try it all anyway.

On older chevy's it was common to have to "shim" the starter. A washer (cutoff) was put under the back bolt to move the nose up into closer contact to the ring gear.

With the ebay unit it shouldn't be nessary. It sounds like you have other clearence issues. Did you change the ring gear on this engine?

You can try coating the bendix with grease and see where it ends up on the ring gear to see what clearence problems you have. Coat it, install and try to crank. Pull starter out and look for any grease transfer.

You could retard timing just a little for the next try to reduce overall compression before the plug fires. I know I have read that one way to get a reluctant motor to start is to retard a tad, so maybe it reduces load..

I wonder if your flywheel may be loose or the starter teeth on the flywheel may be badly worn not allowing the starter to fully engage the flywheel.

Ok, here's my list so far:

Tranny is flush to engine, all bolts tight.

Flywheel is not noticably loose.

The teeth on the flywheel are a worn a little, but I've had it on 2 other engines and this one with no problem until the mini-starter. Now the problem is affecting my stock starter as well, which previously worked fine unless it was hot.

I ran a straight edge over the mating surface between the starter and tranny. The case isn't warped, bent, or cracked.

I tried different combinations of shims between the starter and the tranny case, nothing worked.

I've rotated the engine manually while trying the starter and it still won't engage the flywheel.

I've rotated the flywheel to try starting in different spots.

Put some white grease or paint on the gear teeth and face of / side of flywheel. then try it take off the starter and see whats going PING!!!

Think another direction- are all your electric conections, espically grounds, clean, tight, and perfect- including the infamous transmission ground strap? Maybe you just arn't getting enough juice to engage the starter all the way? Have you checked resistance from the power terminal of the starter directly back to battery, and from ground of the starter directly back to battery? A big drop to either of these could be your problem also.

I like this idea to find out where it is htting the f/w.

Ok, I guess I will fess up to my stupidity in the hopes it will help other people with starting problems in the future.

I started searching for anything that could help me, and a site popped up on google. Even though my connections were clean, and the resistivity across the connectors was good, and I had good current at the starter, it turns out a cable itself was bad.

The site explained how to test just the cable itself, and that you can get good current, but the cable might not be able to feed the amps required to turn the starter. One thing they mentioned was the starter engaging, but not cranking. (my ping!) I tested the cable and it was very much bad. I guess all the engine pulls and starter swaps I've done in the past 4 months had made the condition of the defective cable worse. The cable was only 6-7 months old, so I guess there was a manufacturer defect or something.

So final result: Not getting the amps required to turn starter, but enough to engage the starter gear to the flywheel. I replaced the problem cable and now the stock AND mini-starter work great! My headlights are brighter now too.


Thank you everyone for helping me!!

Do I get a prize? Just kidding, glad you got it nailed. I really like my mini starter, and with the 680 battery, between the 2, I bet the car has dropped 20+ lbs, still starts great, and (hopefully) auto crosses a little better. Go start your car and DRIVE it!

Cool! I'm very glad to hear that you got it sorted out. This is very educational.

One trick that I learned from the VW community is to run a separate grounding cable instead of relying on the body to provide the ground back to the engine. You just purchase a cable with the identical connectors on both ends like the one going to the body. You need one long enough to go from the body connection point to somewhere on the engine, like where a starter bolt is accessible. Running this additional cable gives you a straight ground connection from the battery to the engine (and thus the alternator). The reasoning is that the ground through the body can sometimes be less than optimum.

It sounds like your eBay vendor took care of things very professionally. Who did you get the starter from?

The seller name was hiperformanceusa. They're in Riverside, CA.

The replacement unit he sent me looked a little different than the first. I don't know if it's more powerful or not, but you tap the go pedal and hit the key and it starts instantly. There's almost no crank over time. It's awesome!

So what is the weight savings. I noticed his Ebay adds don't show how much it weighs any more.

is it worth the money? I mean pounds per dollar?

Glad to hear you have it all figured out. I know electrical problems can be a PITA to identify. I just had a problem with my wifes Jeep...it had a slightly corroded battery connection...after cleaning it up...everything is back to normal. It's amazing how many things a person looks into and ultimately you find a $6 cable that is bad...(typical).

Good job!

Bill

The replacement one he sent me is smaller but not much lighter. The original one he sent me (which is the same as the one a see photos of in everyones posts) was significantly lighter than the stocker. I didn't actually weigh it, and since I have installed/removed a starter about 10 times in the past 4 days, you're SOL on me pulling it back out.


I'm not really into the weight savings at the moment, I was just trying to get it on the road. For me it was worth it because it wasn't much more expensive than the reman bosch, and less prone to failing or experiencing hot start problems.