Okay... got home last night about a quarter till nine.

Immediatley went to the garage...beer in hand.

Put one of the set of trigger points that Britt sent me in the new dizzy. Installed the new dizzy. Aligned the pertronix. Put in the new NGK6'ers. Started her up and timed it. Car ran much smoother. Nice power band. Put on the timing light and tweeked the timing...really not off by much. My neighbors loved it about as much as my wife did at 10:00 at night (for those of you that have timed a 1.7 you know what I am talking about).

All seemed well. So I bundled up... kissed the wife and with a spare set of plugs, tools and cell phone I set out for a drive.

Drove for about a half hour with no problems... really getting cold out now so I decide to head back home. Took the backroads. About ten minutes from my house car starts bucking and sputtering. Ahhh I know this feel. CRAP. Pull over at a gas station near my house for some light and pull number two plug. TOTALLY F'IN fouled.

Pulled all the plugs. Every one is fouled out. Put in the cleaned Platinums that I brought with me and limped back home.


I am totally at a loss here... I just do not know where to check now. I think I am done for the winter. I have had enough.

Sorry boys I will not be seeing you at the FFC tomorrow. Have fun. I'm just pisssed off this morning beyond belief

new dizzy, working pertronix, and plugs are getting fouled.

platniums havent worked well for me on these engines IMO, I prefer the standard bosch supers. Anyway, have you checked more simple things, like a nice BLUE spark from the coil? I bet you have a weak yellow spark.

Sorry to hear this Todd. I know how discouraging this can be. I am confident that you will get this sometime. Too bad it won't be in time for the FFC. Just a reminder though, you don't have to bring a 914. Any car that brings you will be welcome!

Nope monster spark... Got the matching coil to go with the pertronix.

I don't know why but I am still concerned that I adjusted the valves wrong. But I can't see this fouling the plugs.

I don't think of myself as a master mechanic but I do know what should cause fouled plugs and those conditions should not be there at this point.

Good Luck man! I'll be taking pictures of this event, so you can be there without being there.

I NEVER have confidence that I got the valves right, but the problem you describe is way too systemic- valves would be right & wrong.
I don't know FI on these cars, but it seems like you are way rich at higher RPMs. What could cause that? We need MLES! He would know. Brad Anders would know, too, of course. Me? All I can do is ask questions, apparently. hmmm.

D-Jet i'd check your mps (i have one of those suckers too) or vacuum leak.

I've checked the MPS fifteen thousand times. Hold vac.

As for vacuum hoses. They are all new and they seem tight. Maybe I should get some cheap clamps and clamp them down to make sure.

I would be real pissed if that was the problem.

For peace of mind, why wouldn't you try to put some points back in there?

And maybe have a multimeter with you when the problem happens to check the CHT's resistance on the spot. I think you have a new one but you never know.

fuel pressure?
CHT ohms?

send the MPS to me and I'll check it out.

Fuel pressure is at 29. I have an inline pressure gauge.

Geoff... this is the MPS I got from you... you think it might have gone wacky?

CHT is new and I have not checked the OHMs. Was just assuming it was OK. Will check this weekend.

I have had the same problem with both points and pertronix. It actually got a little better when I moved to the pertronix.

what kind of shape is your FI wiring harness in? I agree that the coil seems like the next logical thing to check....

CHT when hot is near 100 ohms IIRC. You can disconnect the CHT and install a 100 ohm resistor to ground. The car will run like crap when cold but O.K. when warm. A better idea is to install a pot with a 100 ohm resistor in series.. You can then dial in the pot for better running. This reccomendation is for testing and not for normal use. This will not help if the problem is a bad (as in broken) connection to the ECU. I would check this first.

I can put the blue coil back on and test but I really don't think this is the problem.

Now the FI harness... that is another story. Never really checked it out. I'll have to go over it with a fine tooth comb.

the fact that one cylinder get fouled after its been running for awhile makes me think that perhaps the harness is beat up and when it gets hot starts acting flaky.

could be as I have had two go bad from Shipping across the US. Must be something about being at 33,000 feet that does it. Send it back so I can test it.

I can also ship the Janbo to you to test the FI out. Its a trouble shooting tester that will test the harness out too. It doesnt test the ECU at all.

I'm in this boat...I'd be looking at your harness.

I've had an intermittent bucking issue caused by broken wires at the trigger points, then at the MPS. You may be wasting time checking components when the problem lies under those brittle, broken little boots on the harness.

A valve that is out of adjustment just a little would run fine until it warmed

up and then it starts to loose compression. It's not always on or off.

If in doubt, use this method. Remove the plugs. Rotate the motor until you see a valve being pressed. Adjust the valve on the opposite side. Repeat this 8 times. If you adjusted them correctly, then this will be a fairly fast check. I have tried other methods and I made mistakes. Yes they were dumb mistakes I hate to admit it. The last time I did this, I got intake #3 too loose. The pushrod got hung up on the edge of a lifter. This held the valve open and I lost compression on 3. Now I don't make mistakes or get confused.

I didn't read the previous thread about your problems,

Have you considered leaky fuel injectors?

While working on a car we discovered that the motor ran fine with all four injectors disconnected from the harness.

Swap the injectors around and see if the plug fouling moves too...

Every plug was fouled out.
Spark is good
It ran for a while (more time than needed to warm up) before this happened
- This means possible incedeous onset = fuel leaking into the cylinders slowly fouling the plugs

Things that are common to all of the injectors: Fuel pressure, gunk.

Grounds are not common to all as the wires are made in banks (left two and right two). Trigger points trigger one on each side a the same time (1,3 and 2,4).

My guesses and suggestions would be to pull the injectors and check the spray pattern. Its fast and easy.

Are you sure your inline fuel pressure gauge is trustworthy?

All is plumbed correctly, right?

Anyone know if a TPS can cause this? Cant think, 4hrs of sllep follwed by 4 hr test.......

You are reading too many medical textbooks. It's a fuel management problem similar to diabetes

Dave

if it was the TPS I would think it would be a constant problem, not happen after running for an hour.

Good thinking

Dave, I have learned a new language that leave my wrenching friends questioning what I just said.

New word; Tachy-WTF-itis - the feeling you get when being barraged with copius amounts of new material that youdo not understand.

I wasn't saying that it was one valve, it was stated earlier that it could not be

valves out of adj. because a valve problem is eather bad or not.

A compression test is also in order.

Some inferred that it was one cylinder. I am not ruling anyhting out, only offering my thought patterns on this. It could be a solar flare for all we know

Or Ozone depleted Whales...those whales are sneaky.

I have a simpler suggestion than what I have read so far. Put in a one or two step hotter plug and see if they continue to foul. It could just be that the plug your running doesn't like your set up. Since the build up on the plug occurs over time and it runs fine initially it could be that your using to cold a plug. I've gone to the three electrode plugs because they do help in a situation like this. You have to foul all three electrodes before you lose the plug.
Randy

I have read along through all the posts and don't necessarily have the answer, but nobody has specifically asked...

What is the condition of the vacuum hose that connects to the MPS? Make sure it is tight on both ends. Make sure none of the fittings on the Plenum are cracked or broken allowing a vacuum leak. Make sure your plenum itself is not cracked. Sometimes a crack can hide until it is warmed up until it opens.

With an excessively rich mixture (that fouls plugs) I would suspect:

MPS
Injectors
Fuel Pressure
Cold Start Valve

Like others have suggested, pull the injectors (and cold start valve) and check for fuel leakage.

It could be ignition, but my bet is it's on the fuel side.

just my $0.02

Unless the WTF is inflamed, shouldn't that be tachyWTFia to match with tachycardia and tachypsychia?

One question:

Are the plugs GAS fouled or OIL fouled??

I'm not clear on this after reading everything..

A vacuum leak would cause it to idle high and run lean.. it wouldnt GAS foul a plug.. they would be super white.


B

Cold start valved still in the loop? They can leak also.. not just unplugged, but by passed completely?


B

OK sorry guys... had a meeting... I know the nerve of me working while we are all trying to diagnose this problem

Ok to address everyones questions comments.

I have run hotter plugs - the platinums. It runs better and a little longer with those before the foul out.

The vac hoses are BRAND new and fit very snuggly.

The plugs are definitley gas fouled...tremendous build up of carbon.

The Cold start valve is both unplugged and bypassed.

The fuel injectors I just purchased from a board member. He them rebuilt by witchunter and I even have the test results. Of course, this does not mean that they are not bad now but pretty unlikely.

I am really leaning toward the harness... not sure why. It never looked suspect to me but this is a CONSISTENT problem... not an intermitant problem. Could be wiring.

I think I answered everyone comments. Oh and God save the queen and the whales!

The only reason I do not think the harness is the culprit is because for all of your injectors to put MORE gas in they would have to be OPEN for longer. This condition would be hard to create with a wiring issue as you would likely ground out, unless you some how put all fo the injectors on a common wire so that they ALL fire with every pulse. BUT, that is a pretty odd ocurance and not an acute condition.

Check injectors to see if they clogged open or something. Check pressure with other gauge if you can to make sure it is on. You are basically getting too much gas in all cylinders.

How long did it run before fouling? Long enough to warm up and rule out valve adjustments?

GAS fouling will not show carbon build up.. carbon comes from OIL.

Have "sniffed" a plug after pulling it out?

Can you show us a pic of one of the plugs?

What you are explaining to me (at least) is an oil control issue. Does the car smoke when it is hot?

Is the PCV valve bad causing engine oil to be sucked into the intake when the car is hot??

I wish I could sniff a plug..



B

I believes he means "running increadibly rich", not fouling as in soaked with gas. At least that is what I was reading in it.

That is what I was thinking UNLESS it was removing the vacuum on the MPS (wide open throttle condition). If the MPS looses the vacuum source, it would run VERY rich.

I agree with the oil/carbon buildup.

I'd add TS1, TS2, and ballast resistor to the list.-

TS1 gets unhooked sometimes to try to goose up HP. Makes the engine run slightly rich.

TS2- already covered, just wanted Johnman's list to be complete.

Ballast resistor- you shouldn't have one.

Also, sorry to ask a stupid question, but these injectors- are they the yellow ones? Green or light blue or pink flow a lot higher than the yellow ones for the same injector opening period. That would flood all 4 cylinders.

Nuther stupid question- how old are your ignition wires? Old ones can cause hard to track down symptoms. Doubtful they'd have the same effect on all 4 cylinders, but I thought I'd ask. I also tend to think it's fuel not ignition, but I thought I'd ask that too.

Ok, so its black sooty fluffy crap on the plugs?

But it starts up fine and doesn't smell super rich at start up/idling cold?? If its very rich cold then its CHT problems even if its new.

Starts up fine, drives ok until it warms up then slowly fouls plugs....maybe injector leaks, or temp sensor #1 isn't working so its 10% rich.

Pig rich all the effin time, the MPS has gone bad or vacuum line is bad to it.

What is you vacuum at idle? 15inches?

I agree that TS1 or 2 could effect. One of them is directly linked to the MPS circuit in the ECU. Not sure which one.

I had a problem simliar to this with my 1.8. It would run smooth as could be then all of a sudden start bucking and running like it was on fewer cylinders. When it was running rough I went to the engine and started pulling plug wires to see which cylinders were affected. Found the "dead" ones...then I started jiggling the fuel injector connections and bingo...bad connections with the harness at the injector plugs. The wires get real hard down there. Fixed those and the problem never came back. So, good idea to check the harness...and I'd check the injector plugs and the few inches of wire behind those.

Hi guys...sorry took the night off from car stuff.

Brad - Doc - Geoff. Yes the plugs are "sooty" with "fluffy" build up.

Brad - I never though of this being an oil problem. The plugs do not smell of gas. They are not gas soaked. This is why I was questioning my valve job... like it is not expelling exhaust gas properly and leaving it in the chamber to build up.

Doc - I agree with your statement on the wiring harness.

The injectors are the yellow ones.

Brad - I will post a pic of a plug shortly.

JK - plug wires are about a year old. OEM Bosch wires.

Geoff - no immediately from startup the car smells rich. As my wife says.. that car stinks I'm going to try a few more things and suggestions from everyone and if they don't work I am going to ship the MPS back to you for testing.

My experience with Djet runs super rich after it gets to normal operating temp (after 1hr drive) with sputtering, bucking.

CHT faulty or more likely loose/stripped/bunged up threads.

checks:

-sniff exhaust pipe see if you smell fuel indicating super over rich condition.

-Mark (Batlett914) stated a quick on the spot check once symptoms begin occurring would be to disconnect CHT from harness and connect harness lead to ground through a 100 ohm resistor. This will send normal operating temperature CHT signal to ECU and car should let the car run again if problem was bad/loose CHT (it may not idle good at this fixed resistance setting and you may have to keep rpm up above 1000). (DO NOT connect harness lead straight to ground! In my experience you may burn out tired 33-year-old ECU CHT circuit without any resistance.) Note: if super flooded you may have to disconnect fuel pump relay or fuse at engine compartment relay board and burn off flooded condition before trying to restart. If your car runs good after this then you have narrowed it down to either a bad CHT in hot run condition or the CHT is coming loose as the head gets hot and expands. (my CHT was coming loose as PO or PM (mech) looked to have tried jb welding in place which is bad as 1) will not make good ground contact, 2) will eventually start coming loose and giving you this pain in the ass problem.)

-Check CHT tightened snug. If not then tighten it, drive again until symptoms occur and then check tightness again. If it is again loose at all (like mine was) it is jumping threads, rattling around in the head and not making ground contact momentarily making ECU send mega over rich injector-on pulse length giving bucking, sputtering symptom. CHT head threads eventually will become thrashed to the point which when CHT stays off ground connection too long mixture will stay so over-rich as to make engine impossible to run/start. Fix-coil/insert CHT head threads.


So progression of driving symptoms of a loose CHT:

1. Runs fine on start up/cold and first starts getting a little loose at hot engine temp and momentarily looses ground contact giving you only momentarily bucking, sputtering as body of sensor connects/disconnects from threads (ground). You shrug off as a little electrical glitch or air bubble in fuel line and keep driving. EXTREMELY hard to troubleshoot at this point as it is intermittent and may only occur occasionally when at normal engine or hot op temp and when you test CHT you will probably get good reading. If you ever experience this condition when driving a djet I would check CHT is tight/snug in head right away. I would also suggest checking CHT tightness regularly at every other oil change intervals just as a standard maintenance procedure. DO NOT over-torque! It is a relatively shallow, fine thread in soft head alloy.

2. CHT starts getting looser- you drive twenty minutes to store and it works fine, park, shop come out and car will not start, going to flooding condition (you smell exhaust pipe). As car sits after driving for 20 minutes or so and parking, heads initially get hotter because fan air is not blowing over them so CHT is now not making ground contact. As head cools say after another 5-10 minutes (plus the fact that you are spraying super enriched mixture into them and cooling them off even faster!) CHT makes ground contact and starts, drives normally.

When it does this parking lot flooding routine, disconnect the CHT from harness and connect harness lead to ground with your pre-prepared wire and 100 ohm resistor, run the flood out by turning fuel pump off with fuse or relay. Power fuel pump again, start, drive home, curse PO/PM, and fix loose CHT/bad threads.

Picture of my new CHT threads:

Geeesh... trying to get a picture of these plugs is immpossible.

Here is the best one I've got.

They are sooo black that you can't tell what the pieces parts are.

My best guesses are the CHT is bad or not seating correctly causing rich flooding condition. I don't care if its new. Is it a 012 #? Test it with a ohm meter.

or

the MPS has gone wonky. A blown MPS usually will run and not produce fluffy sooty black plugs so I am going with the CHT first.

http://www.championsparkplugs.com/sparkplu...ling&mfid=2

"Fouling is when the spark plugs firing tip becomes coated with excessive fuel, oil, or combustion deposits so that it is unable to produce a spark. A plug can become fouled from continues low speed driving, improper spark plug heat range (too cold), improper timing (over-retarded), too rich an air/fuel ratio or an oil leak into combustion chamber. A variety of self-cleaning features are designed into most plugs to reduce fouling."