I have BMW 320i front breaks and was wondering if they bolt straight to the back break location. If I wanted to remove my Pvalve and use Eric's T, is there a front break that can handle the setup as mentioned. What would be a close second, with an after market adjustable Pvalve, if the rears hava to a mucha MMMMMMMACHIZMOoooo!

Speak oh all knowing sages of good fortune..........

tough Break....

ha... made myself laugh.

big brakes are mostly extra weight.
if you don't have big HP then you don't need big brakes.
the racers will tell you; "all they do it make you slower"

brant

Brant beat me to it...

The question is "why do you need BIG brakes?". Unless you've got big power, and are running hard at a track, big brakes do little more than add weight.

-Josh2

You fellas don't miss a freeking detail, I love it Lets just say, big engine on the way, if I win this ebay thing I'm on right now.

Just to share, I just found a three foot black snake in my bedroom like three minutes ago. He came from the hole from under the floor. Little bastid must be looking for a place to hybernate. Didn't jump on him since I didn't know if it was a coperhead until I switched the light on. Not good; specialy with the girls.

I helped you out a little bit..

I changed the title of your post. I didnt want people to think you could'nt speel.

Look for 6 piston Cayenne Turbo Calipers. They use the same pad as a 6 piston GT3 street car, but the caliper costs HALF what the GT3 caliper costs. It mounts just a tad different, but that doesnt matter, you'll need custom mounting anyway.


B

Thanks for the help with the not being able to spell thing being that I'm really not able tooo spell.LOL

Cool info and wondered if it would all be cool with no booster and such. I don't know much about them setups. Way cool info by the way.

Oh.. dont worry.. it will take both of your feet and the passengers feet to get it to stop..LOL

Honestly.. a 23mm would work fine.



B

Thanks and will look into it ASAP.

Up to 250 HP with 911S brakes are fine. That is all the GT's used, and pretty much everything bigger just costs more. Might even slow you down also. However, if you are into the bling factor, just spend cubic dollars until you break.

what you gonna do with brakes that big on a 914

I might not be the fastest from 0-60 but 60->0 look out!

When SHE says STOOOOOP!

Cubic $$$ first until she don't strop fast enough.

I have 320s, SS break lines and 19mm MC and still isen't that impresive but stops alot faster than stock at like 75MPH. Schmit, stock was just down right scary at first.

Hmmmmmmmm, how so? If stock brakes can lock up the tires can someone explain how BMW brakes will stop it any faster with the same tires?

Live in the country do we?

I would never dought you sir and hell, I never pushed them hard enough to locked them up!LOL On stock tires! LOL I never pushed hard enough? I like push until it fells kinds spongy and then hard and then stop pushing. Did I woos out on my foot preasure? Was I a manjina?

Only drove it like three times before it got to the paint shop and still haven't given it hell yet. At least the " I Know what I'm doing" kinda hell.

Yes and it's quiet and peaceful. I have mice in the fall/winter, lizards in the summer and now snakes before the cold weather. Last year, a friend stayed over and had the doors open as he slepped peacefully before I got home late one evening. When I went into the bathroom, there was a drowned opposum in the toilet.

:beer1:Lots of protein in these parts.

If giant, mondo, stop the earth's rotation, Boing 707 disc brakes float your boat

than get them. I got the deal of a lifetime on Wilwood superlites(F) and 911T®

Calipers( Thanks Chris Julian), if this deal had not come about I would have been content with stock

binders. But sence they did.....

The Superlites are lighter than the stock cali's, how would that slow me down?

Correct! They would only slow you down if you used them.

Those callipers were a sweet score

Brant's only half right. Big horsepower isn't it.

If you can lock up your brakes with a stock setup, then your brakes are defeating the integral friction between the tires and the road. Bigger brakes don't help because they do the same. Get bigger tires. Then you may not be able to lock 'em up anymore. THEN get bigger brakes.

To get your stopping distance to a minimum, run the biggest goddamn tires you can pack in there, and get the SMALLEST brakes that you can lock up with. Remember that unsprung weight affects your tire-to-road stickiness. So lighter wheels too. Certain aero devices can assist.

Meanwhile. Putting the big tires and aero devices on affect your acceleration and top speed too. So then you need the big horsepower.

What it comes down to is that you'll have to compromise. And make very informed decisions.

I.... agree... with...

(I can't say it... I can't)

So what you're saying is that since I can lock up the brakes on my Suburban I need to get rid of the 33x12.5 tires (see above pic) and install bigger ie. 44x15.5 tires? Or should I remove the stock Chebby brakes and put a set of teener brakes on???

I shouldn't have to repeat myself. It's posted clearly for everyone to see.

Yes.

If you wanted your suburban to stop faster, then you would increase your footprint (tire size and pressure), thereby increasing the load on your brakes, allowing them to do the maximum amount of work. Or put on smaller brakes so that you get better traction by unloading the unsprung weight.

Alpha is right
(there, I said it )

I've driven cars with the "must have them because all the racers do" big reds and it sucked BIG TIME
NO brake modulation what so ever... you twitch your little toe and the brakes lock up
And those cars where way heavier than a 914

Would it help if I had titanium brakes?

Modulation is a whole different problem that I haven't addressed yet.

The problem is that alot of the less informed will *just* buy huge brakes and not the proper biasing valves. A biasing valve limits the pressure to the brakes, thereby increasing your stopping distance, since the pressure you will bias it to will be very close to stock AND now you've got these big honking shin-beaters hanging off of each hub.

But if your brakes are capable of locking, then you aren't getting the maximum amount of resistance against the ground. That's the simplest way to put it. Heavy wheels affect this too, by generating more wheel momentum. Still another variable. Rubber is heavier than aluminum too. Another variable. Plenty more.

In my humble opinion, horsepower along with weight can add to making one fast, it is however corner exit speed where one can out brake another to make a pass. You need to have the brakes to enter the corner late and settle the car down, then hit the gas to excellerate out of the corner with the pass.

Dan (xitspd)

Yes TI is good.

The brake body is best off aluminum because it disperses heat the best. But a titanium piston is the best because it doesn't conduct much heat back into the body.

Managing brake heat is step 1 to prevent brake fade, yet another variable. (Brake fade often exists even if the pilota doesn't notice it.)

The above is correct since more tire surface on the pavement requires more friction on the pads to stop. This info is awsome in that we hear stuff from others who have learned all them dos and don'ts and understand the pros and cons.

So the saying is, the least amount of caliper for the tire size to equal good breaking short of locking up or close to it under reasonable foot preasure.

:beer1:Titanium, where do i get soma dem? Are they like huge rotors and everything?

I don't know where you can get titanium pistons for your calipers. I make my own.

I'm normally quiet on this subject (shocking, I know) because some of the major players and some of my close friends disagree with me on this.

I believe that there's (virtually) no such thing as too much brake.

I have PCCB 6-piston Brembos on 996TT fronts and '86 930 rears. The modulation is perfect and the braking is 'hand-of-god' in ways that most people can't understand.

If you're capable of pilot-modulation at the limit, you should use real brakes. Don't use less brake because you're incapable, become a better driver.

If you have 200hp+, get REAL brakes. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

My brakes ARE NOT just for 'cool factor'.

Series9: How big are your tires? Are they slicks? and (Here's the big one) what pressure do you run them at warm? You may be making one hell of a footprint and just have a good combo with those brakes.

And... No. I'm saying that I won't make them for anyone else. Ti is in limited supply.


Did I mention that I make Ti rods professionally now?

Yeah! What he said!!!

I ran stock brakes with a 2270. Hit 140mph on the back straight at the Glen. It would stop, but not exactly fun. With Raybestos pads I could lock them up whenever I wanted. With cooling I could drive 35+ minutes with no fade. But, I could kill stock pads in under 1 20 min. session. I could kill Porterfield R4 in 2-4 sessions. Raybestos in 2 days.

Put on Wilwood Superlites all the way around and haven't worn the pads yet. "Hand of God" stopping with great modulation. Best $500 I've spent in a while.

My fronts are GT2 PCCB 6-piston Brembos on 996TT rotors, using Pagid Yellows with 225/40-17 Kuhmo MXs.

I was about to say "I agree with alpha..."

But I dissagree with the whole Ti thing. SS is a great material for pistons as its thermal conductivity SUCKS. That's a good thing. Less heat transfered to the brake fluid through the caliper the better.

-Josh2

Generally, you don't need to put more brake on your car than is necessary. I have 930 calipers and rotors on all four corners of my V-8 car and they don't fade on the road course. Although Big reds or the bigger 6 piston beauties are awesome pieces...I don't know that I would brake any better with them installed. I can lock up my front tires (245/40/18's) before my rear 285/30/18s lock...just what you want.

Oh, By the way, I had BMW 320 brake calipers on the front of my old 71 2.0 liter 4 clyinder car...and was quite pleased with the braking!

It's a combination of skill and fade. Forget about the ability to 'lock them up'. It means nothing.

So you should probably get ceramic pistons.

Big,light,wide,adjustable,cool and sticky,series9 brakes r sure purdy!Parachutes?

Thermal conductivity of ss can't even compare with Ti. We'll set plans at kevins and I'll bring some sample billet that we can heat on a stove.

And yes. After Ti, there is thermal barrier ceramic coatings. But ceramic pistons don't have good rep because of cracking, chipping, shattering, etc. But it's lighter. And at 2000$ for just enough material to do the fronts, who could go wrong?

I don't disagree with that as long as it's a well thought out system. The problem is in the following areas:

1. People constantly think they are under-braked when really their brakes be broke. New pads, new fluid and new lines would solve their problems.

2. A lot of people don't seem to have enough money to perform proper rust maintanence on their vehicles, yet they are eager to follow the masses suggesting their brakes suck. This gets expensive fast.

3. Most people have a 1.7-2.0 95hp max engine, a narrow body teener and stock size rims with the largest rubber they can fit. You have a 3.6 993 Euro spec six cylinder with a maxed out trick 915 in your car. You also have flares and a massive amount of very expensive rubber on your car.

4. You have more in your brakes than most people have in their cars. I realize not everyone would go that route but... for a majority of 914 owners with warmed over 4 cylinder engines, that would be money wasted.

5. Any amount spent on larger calipers or BMW "upgrades" could be better spent for your average teener. Do you have a sway-bar? How about a nice set of Konis? How about some Elephant or Roller bushings? How about a hell hole kit and fix some rust? How about putting that toward a nice paint job?

6. Most people throw caution to the wind and simply bolt up "anything" that has a 3" ear and fits their solid rotor without thinking that maybe, just maybe, there was a Porsche engineer at the other end of their brake system. When Porsche changed the front brakes on the 914, they also changed the rears...ya think? How many so called "upgrades" can make that claim?

I'm not diss'n on Joe. If you have that amount of money to spend on brakes and that's what you want, do it. Spend the time to think it through as a Porsche engineer would, get the proper balance and write some checks. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Joe's brake system (except maybe a handbrake... but that can be rectified, write more checks). I think he did it right. Those brakes won't even break a sweat.

I just like to look at this as a practical application. We are in JPB's thread here and I believe he has a 4-cylinder narrow body teener. Most people here do. Most people here haven't spent a great deal of time getting:

a ) Excellent Pads. (let's face it... how many have coughed up $100 for a set when you can get a set for $25??)
b ) Changing their fluid every 6 months.
c ) Excellent tire/rubber compounds.
d ) New rubber lines.
e ) A properly bled system.

Bottom Line. Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and a well set up brake system and Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and the largest brakes you can find, would probably stop within the same distance. The difference is money.

Fair enough.

However, there are modern, advanced solutions to braking safety for a /4.

Luckie's car will get 4-piston Brembos in front (if not, all around). 986? 951? 911?.......Not sure yet. It'll be a more average system than the RS, but she's still going to get modern components that are capable of WAY more than the stock system.

I'm aware that I put brakes on my car that are 'one-off'. And yes, they cost me a lot of money.

For $1200, I can put absolutely awesome MODERN PORSCHE brakes on her car. More than enough for the upcoming 3.2.

That's what I'm going to do. Your milage may vary.

I love you Eric

Joe,

To my knowledge, your combo of 6 piston / yellow Brem came on the GT2's..
along with the Pagid Yellows..

To max out the front some more, you need the GT3 ( 996 / 997) front rotor
to match.

The 996 fronts are a bit ( 2-3 mm) smaller

what I didn't see JBP mention was does he have vented rotors or not..if solid rotors, then NO, there are no more "upgrades" for solid rotors....


if 4-lug go with the billet hubs which allow 911 vented rotors (and matching calipers) or convert to 5 lug (more options for bigger brakes with the '83(?) and up 3.5" spacing struts)


12.25" diameter vented rotors...I sold the "mazda" calipers and will be going with something else....911 rotors are 11" diameter up to '89

funny... you mention 'hand-of-god' braking
actually, that is exactly what I meant, because THAT is total lack of modulation...
you THINK you are braking really hard
what you are actually doing is rudely stomping on your brakes, except it isn't your foot doing that, but your brake system
IOW... no control

your tire grip dictate your stopping distance and anyone who tells any different is BS-ing

only reason to step up in caliper/rotor size is for better heat dissipation
(lessen the chance of brake fade)

YMMV, but I'm not gonna spend money to ADD unneeded unsuspended weight

IMHO, it is very easy to have too much brakes.
Bling factor and keeping up with the jones has people putting the biggest brakes they can get on their cars and all they do is add unsprung weight.

Brake size should be determined by weight, top speed, and traction of tires. If you have more brakes than tire traction you don't need any more.

Horsepower has absolutely nothing to do with it unless you are using that power to increase the speed you need to stop from.

I run 930 brakes front and Gt style with vented rotors rear. Perfect and I can keeb the 15 Fuchs tires that I really love. Tires are Yokohama semi slicks - I think I'm well prepared. I wiil properbly change to 930 in a few years on the rear but I have not really looked in the e-brake issue. But this system works well.

Yeti

Love you to Joe

Modern, advanced and safety are all good words. I'm just concerned they can be misleading. "Now I've got to run out and get some modern, advanced calipers because they're safer."

Modern is true. There's 36 years in there but... they're still disk brakes. I don't see any advances that would allow one to stop a 914 faster. The only advancement with modern calipers has been the addition of electronic control like anti-lock modulation. This takes the bad driver out of the equation. In a panic situation, most people will slam it down. Anti-lock brakes have been a good thing. I've yet to see that adapted to a 914. The most modern ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those old 36 year old calipers will.

Advanced... true. Again, 36 years, 4 pots, 6 pots, aluminum to save weight but... they're still calipers with pistons and the exact same brake fluid you can buy off the shelf. None of those advancements mean anything when stopping a 914. The most advanced ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those old 36 year old calipers will.

Saftey... that'll scare people. On one hand, if viewed in light, this is an oxymoron. Brakes = Saftey. I'm not sure how a modern, advanced caliper with pistons and fluid is safer than a 36 year old (well maintained) caliper with pistons and fluid. I honestly don't see any saftey advances in the calipers. Electronics, such as the anti-lock technology discussed earlier, yes. There are pad sensors now-a-days that let you know when your pads are getting scary but I've yet to see anyone rig that light into the dash. The safest ones you can stuff under a teener today will still stop it in the same distance those safe old 36 year old calipers will.

Let me revise my bottom line a bit: Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and a well set up and extremely safe stock brake system and Brian Redman in JPB's car with the same tires and the most modern, advanced and safest brakes you can find, will stop within the same distance. The difference is money.

I just want people to know that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a stock brake system that is in proper operating condition. If you feel a need to go big. Go big. Do it wisely. If you think you can outsmart a Porsche engineer... go for it.

I've said this before: Do youself a favor and head to an HRS event. Walk through the pits and take pictures of Frank Beck's 914 (specifically the S-Calipers bolted on the front and the M-Calipers on the rear). Find Bill Lewis Jr.'s car... same brakes. In fact, every car in that class will have those brakes. It's mandated. Those two will be battling it out for the top spot. They're two of the most advanced 914 race cars you'll find. Watch the action. They're fast. It's exciting to see 914's go that fast. If you think you need more brake than that... Godspeed.

OK... I'm gonna shut up now. Right about now, Joe's fantasizing about slamm'n on the middle pedal and watching me fly through the passengers side of the windshield.

I get such a chuckle from reading these BREAK threads.

Series 9 that is the cleanest race car I have seen in quite awhile.

Kumho MX's I bet you think they have great grip too.

Best way to stop a 36 year old 914 is to pull some wieght off of it. fix the stock stuff. and then learn how to drive.

Threshold braking is an art.

I run 225/50-15 Hankook RS-2 tires on light rims. it stops better than any car I have ever owned including my 928.

Put my real slicks on the car with 15 lb rims and the braking is near 1.01 Decleration G's That's from 100 ish MPH to 50 ish MPH to get thru turn 4 @ my little red neck track NPR.

So what's you G meter say Mr. big ass brakes

Actually, I mentioned modulation and braking as two different components of the system.

And yes, I understand the difference. Because I'm moving 20 pistons with a 19mm MC, my system goes to maximum braking at relatively light pressure and because the pedal actually moves, it's also easy to modulate.

I put 6-piston Brembos on the front of my car because it had never been done on a 914. That aside, I have an excellent brake system that's a pleasure to use.

As for fade, thermal capacity is also an excellent reason to upgrade from stock.

Again, simply saying that your brakes are capable of lock-up, is not seeing the whole picture. Bigger brakes are capable of more rapid deltas (change in speed over time). I can take my brakes to maximum effort VERY quickly. That's the 'hand-of-god' effect I speak of. Take a ride with me and you'll understand. And yes, it matters on the track and on the street (if confronted with an emergency stop).

There's more to it than simple adhesion of the tire. In fact, there's a lot more.



My best advice on two issues that are popular here:

1. Don't decide a /4 is better than /6 until you drive a /6.

2. Don't decide stock brakes are better until you drive big brakes.

Make an INFORMED decision instead of sitting around speculating.