I currently have a stock 1.7l and 1.8l motors with D-jet and L-jet FI and am looking for economical rebuild options. Would like to increase the HP to at least 100 (maybe more?) but want to weigh all my opptions before I begin. Ideally would like a Raby motor, or even the $5k option, but given the current value of this car I have real trouble justifying. What would you recommend to get a 100+HP reliable motor for as cheap as possible, given what I have to start with. Hoping to do most of the work myself - at least what makes sense.

1911

Since you have a 17& 1.8 core the 1911 would be the most economical way for you due to the core charges associated with a 2056 engine..

At the budget level there are many options... Of course some are better than others.

listen to Jake engine rebuild on a budget show

1911 = 96 P and C's, stock crank and rods, use your 1.8 get Raby's 9530 cam use your l jet should make 100 hp. change exhaust add mallory you'll be happy.

with fresh heads from len and parts, probably around 1500-2000$


Edit Jake is fast on the rebuild reply's Cheers

have you listened to the Raby radio show that covers budget Type IV builds??

I'm guessing not

Build a 1911 and build it yourself. Go with carbs or aftermarket FI (probably carbs in your case because it'll keep the costs down). The stock FI really limits the HP potential. Get rid of that restriction and really let it open up and it'll be an awesome little motor.

I'd source a 2L crank and rods and make it into a 2056. A crank and rods usually goes for around $200-250.

Interesting! I had not heard that stock FI limits HP in ~2L TIVs... Do we agree that HP gains are achievable with aftermarket FI vs stock on a 2056? Aftermarket FI is a good investment IMHO so that future rebuilds can go bigger, but I was not considering it for round 1 at near stock displacement.

Stock FI still limits how agressive of a cam that you can use. Tuning D-Jet for a non-stock setup can also be difficult.

If I were building a 1911 for myself, I'd make one that would rev HIGH and just shift late and keep the RPM up.

then the stock FI would be the first thing to toss!

Exactly! I'd NEVER build a stock FI engine for myself.

OK - the stock FI is gone. I assume on a budget pick up some Webers? I need more detail on the 1911, but it sounds like what I need to do. $1,500-2,000 sounds about right. For the 1911, do I need to source new 96 P&C's, or is that what the 1.8 has? Is the 2l crank and rods an option with the 96 P&C's? How much for the Raby 9530 cam? How much for the head work?

All my flat tappet cams and lifters are 275.00 for the matched set, no matter the grind..
96s are a possibility for a 2.0 crank, but the pistons are different for each arrangement due to the pin heights.

The 1911 is a 96mm bored 1800, the 2056 is a 96mm bored 2.0

if you'd listen to my radio shows youd know this!

I am listening as I write this, so I will be much smarter when I post next!

I got a 1.7L up to about 140hp with a Web 86A (street) cam, hd single valve springs, reworked Weber 40IDFs, 1.8L heads with stock dia. stainless steel valves, and good port work. It wasn't too bad at low rpm and really came alive above 4K rpm.

Oh yeah, and a Tangerine EVO Header!

Hey, what would be your personal thoughts on the 86A ???

with 100 being your minimum, and $$ being a concern

you should hit 100 hp by increasing your P And C's and new Cam, saving money on your Factory fuel injection

now if you want more, who doesn't, everything you change will effect something else

IE Aftermarket EFI/ Carbs, to really see major benefits you need to upgrade exhaust

hell, look at the bolt on power thread, exhaust is the #1 choice for improvement

if you had listened to the exhaust show 2 weeks ago you could have picked up the Tangerine header system complete at a 20% discount.

Wow. Interesting.....
How long would an engine like that last?

Now we're talkin! Not exactly a "budget rebuild", but quite a package out of a motor most people sell compete for <$500 (I got mine with FI for $350). I see myself rebuilding along this route but with aftermarket FI. I think daily driving a high compression aftermarket FI 1.7 would be pretty cool, with good gas mileage in the 3-3.5K rpms and AX HP at 4.5-6.0K rpms. If more details are revealed, I'm ready to take notes

ain't nothin' magic: good port work, good cam, hi-compression, great exhaust, solid valve train!

Budget 100hp? 1911 with djet or ljet is quite possible using Rat/Ham heads, 96's, 9550 cam and alittle tuning work.

I like the balance of streetability and power from that cam. With just the cam, unmodified carbs and header the engine made a bit more power than stock. I never dynoed it but estimated the peak to be around 100hp. When I added the head work and opened up the carb inlets it rocked! The improvement was dramatic. Peak power was around 6200 rpm but didn't begin to drop off until close to redline (valve float) at 6800.
I did have ceramic lifters too, which made the high redline possible.

I chose the 86A because I could still use single valve springs and the increased lift and duration would provide big gains if I invested in better breathing. It was an easy combination to assemble. I ran it with stock heads for close to two years, then re-did the top end right before going to the Runoffs in '03. On a Dynojet I got 125 rwhp. I continued to race with that engine thru '04 and much of the '05 season as well.

Exactly! Actually, I did the port work myself, so it could have been better. The valves were set up professionally with new guides and seats. IIRC the compression was around 10.5:1. I used domed (factory shape)Wiseco pistons and I did have to add pockets for the valves.

The 86A wakes up with split duration. I have a grind that is very similar to the 86A with a few dehrees more on the exhaust and a split center line..

straight pattern cams are so ineffective for the Type 4 that I don't even stock them any longer...

Jake, for those unedumakated people like me, can you illustrate what you're talking about without releasing any proprietary information?

Thanks

If you do a google search you'll find lots of tutorials on cams. This looks pretty good:

http://www.thirdgen.org/sbc-camshafts-primer

I built a 1.8 L-jet with 96mm pistons and Jakes cam. it was faster than my buddies 2.0 and ran great with the FI. I also did a 2.0 with 96mm and a Jake cam, a 2056 with D-jet. I think they are different p/n for D vs L jet FI cams. it was perky but requires a re-tune on teh MPS. I built both motors out of back yard parts. only had to buy the essensials like rings, bearings and gaskets.

either combo ws well worth the effort. both cars were sold. I have not heard back from the new owners. Just make sure you inspect carefully or get an experienced eye to look over your parts prior to assembly

Any cam enhancement will require an MPS tweak.. The 9550 was designed especially for D jet and it has great tuning characteristics due to the very graceful opening of the intake valve thats similar to stock from .40 lift all the way to past .400, thats not a characteristic of any other cam that you'll find.. The exhaust promotes better head efficiency and reduction in heat..

I have an L jet version of the 9550 as well, it's the 9550L and it was designed specifically for L jet with the same characteristics in mind.

These are my two hottest selling cams!

I want to know how to get fresh heads from len, and enough new parts and machine work to build a quality engine that will last for this price range.

When I priced out rebuilding my 2.0 (nearly stock) I was out of this budget range in short order.

You could have taken advantage of the 4th Dimension Radio specials. Len gave a hell of a price for labor for his heads as a product of the week and I also backed it up with a deal on valve train parts for those heads...

The 2056 engine kit was something like $2900 too....on the Radio Special IIRC.

I want to bounce off everyone what I've learned and what my current plans are. I currently have SSI's along with a Bursch muffler - I will reuse these on my 1.8 rebuild. I will replace the P&C's with 96mm to create a 1911 cc. Any recommendations on manufacturer (AA, Mahle, KB?). I also plan on using Webers instead of FI along with Raby's cams (86A?).

Some questions:
- What mods shold I do to the heads?
- Should I look into a new crank to increase displacement?
- What Webers should I look for - 40's?


Keep in mind I am on a budget of ~$2k and want to maximize HP - at least 100!

cam and lifters 275+ tax
bearings crank and cam and rods 62+ + tax
heads 610(super stock ) + tax
valve train 405 + tax
P and C's 329+ tax
sealants 75 or so
gasket kit 75
crank shaft grind for stock 65 per Rimco
rods recondition 15 each rimco
case cleaning ??
Jakes rebuild video
tin refurbish ???
plugs and wires??
Mallory ???
looks like 2k without carbs to me

Unfortunately those "radio shows" came about a year too late.....

This is an exerpt from when I had Len give me a quote:

The heads need new guides, stainless valves (stock dia is enough for more than 100hp) and heavy duty single springs, along with a little bit of port flow work ( a little bit goes a long way). You can keep the old valve seats if you don't mind a little risk. The combustion chambers should be cut to increase compression to about 9.5 to 1 (a preliminary guess).
Get Jake's version of the 86A.
40IDF's or 40 Dells, 32mm main venturis.
To stay close to budget I would leave the crank and rods alone if possible and keep the stock P&Cs. That will save you enough to get the carbs. I also think balancing the rotating assembly (fan, crank, flywheel, PP) is wise since you will need a rev limit of more than 6K rpm. The rods and pistons should be balanced as well.
The long exhaust system, combined with the mass of the moving parts will limit the rpm and therefore the peak horsepower.
The next step to more horsepower is lighter pistons, rods, lifters, etc. and a header.

John, I'm seeing a total cost of about $2100 if you use new P/C's? You don't always have to replace evrything. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with reusing stuff like that if its within spec. The same with rod reconditioning and balancing, one can do that themselves.

Thats just MO, I feel confident rebuilding an engine using some of the stock VW parts, provided they look good. When I pulled my 1.8 apart nothing inside was abused and everything was measured within spec.

I found a pair of Weber 40 IDE (are these different than IDF's?) carbs on eBay that came off a VW - will these fit? Can the venturis be changed?