Okay I spend most of my winter building up my car. Stiffness wise. My chassis is very rust free. Last year I noticed that the drivers door was getting a little harder to open. It has been hit on that side up front in its former life. So I figure since all I do is beat this chassis to death, I should stiffen it up a bit.

So here is what it had done from the past , GT kit I know some think it does nothing, except add weight, I does help a little. This winter I add an engmann kit, seam weld the entire thing. Have a set of bars in that keep the chassis where I thought was a good spot, doors would open and close with ease. Next I add an Auto-power roll bar, and a Petty bar. Doors still shut, it is up on stands the entire time at the dognuts cause I have the suspension off also. I add inner ear stiffening. Everything is rocking, top goes on etc....

I put everything back into the car, and think I am off to the races. As I lower it down, I watch hte door gaps close up again. I am right back where I started, door snages just a little when I open it. the Pasenger side hangs a little also which it did before also.

It just pisses me off. So I deciede I will bolt down the top. build a frame, bond it too the roof, and start test fitting it. Cool I get it to fitt right, bond it up to the roof skin, test fit it again as I push forward I watch the windsheld frame flex also.

I hate cages but that seems like the only solution. I am brain dead right now so things are not very clear right now and I am pissed which does noot help either.

Anybody have an out of hte box idea to get the door gaps back and held in place. BTW, all I have to do is jack it up at the rear dognut on hte drivers side and both doors will open up proper again. And it does not take much upward movement, maybe 1/4"

thinking about getting a porta-power spreading the chassis, and slapping a shim under hte petty bar and see what I get.

Here is the top frame, before I bonded it to a spare top I have.

Yeah, Having cut my my windshield frame off it has very little structural integrity. That top brace is about 10 times stronger the the window structure supporting it! Just bite the bullet and install a cage. They do wonders for chassis rigidity.

You could probably build a custom frame that does away with all of the obtrusive std. cage issues and be miles ahead but I think a cage (for what you're asking) is probably the last step (meaning it will solve your problem).

Widshield frame is "basically" worthless. You can easily reposition it 1/4" or more any old day of the week.

That sure seems wrong to me......especially with all the reinforcing. Are you sure that something else is not broken, rusted or cracked? Perhaps about the door hinge area on the body and not in the middle of the longs?

That sucks

I know that hindsightis 20/20 but...
I used Brad Mayeur's outer long stiff kit and the door gaps do not budge.

I posted a thread last year, but here is a pic..

I am thinking of taking it to work and tossing it up on a frame rack and see what I get. That was a suggestion of my buddy,

I could do like a parts car I picked up once it had presure treated 4x4 in the logs I also had one that had a 3/8" piece of steel plate. The entire floor was rusted out the seat was under the car, yet the doors opened perfectly. No sag what so ever.

Yeah I could do a cage, right now I want a fix got a race in two week ends. I guess I could knock a cage out in two weeks. Got so much more todo, besides getting in hte car. I guess I could do it Nascar style and slide in the window, Duke style.

I agree with Paul. It's not like you're throwing it around a track, or a back road. You're just lowering it to the ground. Shouldn't need ANY reinforcement to prevent that. I'd suspect the longs, around about where the door pillar goes up to the basket handle. Or as Paul says where the hinge pillar goes up to the windshield?

weld or bolt in a reinforcing bar from the top of the rear shock tower to the firewall by the targa bar. that should stiffen the rear. you could also continue that thru to the pass. compartment on the inside from the firewall forward to the floor at the front bulkhead.
should be good and stiff then.

tomorrow is another day, I will see what I get from there.

Best thing I ever did to stiffen my car up was getting rid of the jack reciever holes. I braced the car between the door jambs and got the spec measurement. then went an 1/8" more. did all my welding and when I pulled the braces Whala perfect spec measurements. (well pretty close)

The weak spot on mine was the passenger side long. The bottom of it.

I had the donut off on that side and installed one plate where the donut had been (and there was a large hole there). After installing that plate (and subsequently a home brewed copy of a chassis stiffening kit), I checked the door gap and it was HUGE. No amount of weighing it down, jumping up and down on it would close the gap again. It was done. Such is the wisdom of a 20 year old....

I left the car that way for many years. No sagging, no movement at all up on jackstands or down on the ground. Then three or four winters ago (16 or so years after making the gap HUGE, I decided to take on the task of making the gap a "normal sized" gap again. I ended up cutting through all my previous reinforcements, strapping the car to both the lift and the floor and pulling the car down while it was supported by the lift. Ratchet straps, chains, cum-a-longs anchors, jacks and BIG FUCHing HAMMERS are your friend. After about 6 hours, I had the gap EXACTLY the way I wanted with no pressure on the chassis. I welded the car up CAREFULLY and added some additional reinforcement. After the welds were allowed to cool (the next morning) the gap had opened up 1-2mm. It has stayed there for the past 2-3 years now without moving. Up on a lift or down on it's wheels, the door gaps stay the same.

The car has no cage and I plan on keeping it that way (it's my silver street car 3.2). If it ever gets a cage, it will become a track car. I hate cages in street cars.

I am guessing that your car has weak longs There is some reason it is moving. They should not. The weak spot on most mid-west cars is the location where the heater tube penetrates the longs. With the jack posts off, and the heater tubes out, you can look straight through the lower firewall and look out the other side.

Because of this weakness, I extend my own version of the engman kit to penetrate the lower firewall on both sides and run a single plate up each inner long from the suspension console up to the mid-point of the long (where the crossmember is). Fully welded with rosette plug welds, this single plate adds TONS of strength to the chassis. I then close up the lower firewall and make it look as stock as possible. I have a tub on a rotisserie right now that I did this to (I haven't yet closed up the lower firewall yet) and can show a picture if you want.

I don't run my cars when it is too cold. Headers don't provide heat anyway.

Sorry to hear about your flexi-flier.

BTW,

I know it is common to brace the cars with the door jambs while welding, and I do the same, but those door jambs are WEAK. You can easily move the jambs (especially the hinge post) to make ill fitting doors fit.

John I would love to see a picture, I would also like to thank Joe for his ideas.

Have you really examined your longs closely?

Mark, that is a very cool, how were your longs when you cut off the jack receiver?

Here are a bunch of pics:

3+4

5+6

The rosette welds will all be ground flush and finished off to look smooth when done. It's been a while since I have done any work on it......

my body lines were all great but the first thing I did even before making my car run was to take it to the chasis shop to have a full cage welded in and various areas boxed in ... welded in cage would probably cure your problem.

Thanks John, I like your work there wish I had asked this 4 months ago now. extending through the lower fire wall up to inner rails is a great way of doing it.

Yeah a cage would fix the door issue but would only bandaid the true problem. There are cures for this problem I just have to find the problem and fix it.

I am going back today, drop an engine and strip the outer logs and see if I have rust hidding the GT kit coverst the outside to the jack posts, I will check the jack posts first I never use them anyway, and go from there. HEck the only time the 914 is out on hte streets with out its service trailer is short runs into town. Other wise Iam heading to an auto-x and have a tire tralier in to with jacks, parts, and extra tires to get me by.

Those are great photos. This should be archived as a classic technical article.

I wish I could weld.

Jim,

Welding ain't rocket science man has been doing it for centuries in one form or another. If you have the will the easist way I know of doing it is grab a good mig welder, some scrap metal out of a bin, ask first, and start buring. Work on thicker stuff first, id did it the other way and started restoring cars first. Should have learned on Farm machinery, then sheet metal.

If you are going to do sheet metal I suggest getting a POS part from the car you are planing on restoring, and work on it. The metal will be the same, how it reacts will be the same if you can make a fender or hood, etc, perfect, you can make the rest of the car perfect also. Hijack my own thread.

Okay, I am allready back out there working and this is what I found. Nothing really. No! If I jack the passenger side up, it takes significantly more lift to produce the same effect as jacking hte drivers side. Which tells me my problem is on hte passengaer side. I think my logic is correct here, sure if it is not someone will correct me.

You can probably tell from my pictures, but I should clarify that the car is upside down on a rotisserie. I will continue the stiffening plates forward to the front inner wheelhouses on both sides. The lower firewall will also have a stiffening plate added.

As far as I am concerned, I don't believe that stiffening the outer longs (except around the outer suspension console) does much good in stiffening the chassis.

The inner long (as I see it) adds the majority of the strength to the car.

Now keep in mind that a modification to the chassis like I have done eliminates any possibility of heater tubes in the longs. On a track car (or any Porsche in my climate), I don't need or want heat, so this is not a problem. I don't drive my Porsches in the cold or the snow or the salt or the rain......they are fair weather cars now and look to last much longer this way.

The tub in the pictures started out as a relatively clean tub (no major hell hole issues, just some surface rust). The tub was partially reinforced, and was dipped. It then was put on the rotisserie and is being slowly stiffened. This car will have a cage and will be a dedicated track car, so I wanted it as stiff as I could while at the same time keeping it recognizable as a "stock" 914-6 conversion with a cage.



Stephen,

I hope you figure yours out.

Keep us posted. Take a couple pics of the areas in question. (hint, I bet it is near the water catcher {I mean the jack post} on the inside or outside or both)

Without heat, I would be inclined to agree.
With the heater tube going into the long at, what I think, is the weakest area, a good majority of the stress is transferred to the outer long at the angle change just behind the jack post.
This area tends to flex because as Stephen said..the long right behind the jack post cover has a hole in it for the jack post..
The whole thing was a poor series of choices...No jack post works great.
No jack post is needed, jack it up by the engine bar...works perfectly fine.

I agree with Stephen on one thing...cut open, and remove the jack post.
Make a piece that plates over that area, and turns up the long to meet the suspension area, one long piece, that is bent inwards.
I made mine with the bottom of the long also.

If you fit that on, it wont move again..

Now that being said.
Take a long hard look at the outer long overlay that GPR/AA sell and RD makes.
It goes all the way from to rear, and is designed to go over everything in one shot.
Simple and really adds alot of strength, yet not as heavy as other alternate "kits" out there.

Much easier to prepare for, (easier than the inner long kit) and more effective because it continues up the angle.


Now, what Stephen is doing is awesome, but I would not do it without a cage unless you did the whole length of the long, dont stop in the middle...McMark is starting to find that area is cracking over time...

Rich

What Gauge of steel you guys using for these. I have a bunch of 16 gauge.

Currently I can tell you this the engine is back out, sitting on a set of stands at the suspension arm pickup point I still have the issue but not as bas as I do with the unit jack from the dognut. If I put it down on the wheels I still have the issue a little less since the engine is out less weight helps.

I know the jack point on hte passengar side has some rust, I will rip it appart and see what I get. Heading back there now, see you on the flip side.

ohio.
You need heat.
Cut off both jack points, open that area up and see what is bead behind it.

You can remove it without taking off the fender or sill...just gotta get in there with a dremel/grinder/sawzall.

Once you open that up,,,take some pics of both sides.

Rich

Oh Boy before I took my car apart drivers door did'nt quite close unless I lift a little to close the door . I was thinking a bad hinge or something simple all the longs look clean enough just a little surface rust .Quess I'd better look harder

Great job on your project. May I suggest you look really hard at the triangle brace that is located in this picture upper right side. That is a very overlooked area and if you are having that kind of flex I would start there, looking at your photo it seems small or seems to have rot around it. if this area of the long is not attached to the firewall it WILL flex. I always make the attaching area larger to give it more surface to pull from

Have you looked at Andy's thread about straightening his car on a Celette bench? Unless you have the car anchored to the correct fixture, any straightening you do is working AROUND the problem, not fixing it. The most difficult way to do it is on a rotisserie, IMO, because you nave NO LOAD on any of the points normally loaded when the car is assembled and sitting on the wheels. You're chasing your tail!

The Cap'n

Here is what I got!!!!

Actually better than I expected

Drivers side

Passenger Side Door gaps

There definitely isn't a problem with your door hinges?

that jack support does not look bad at all

The more I think about it, the better I like the reinforcement on the outside of the long, I have some spare rocker covers I could eliminate the hole for the rocker cover and it would sort of clean that up too

That is an "in process" shot of what was done. It will have the triangular braces reinstalled. They were removed (along with the donuts). When done, it will look very stock (sans heater tubes) an be much stronger.

Your making me dizzy.

Back up from the car and show just the door gaps where the door handle is...the whole thing top to bottom in one picture.

Then, get two people to sit in the drivers deat together and take the picture again.
Do the same on the passenger side. Car on the ground, on its tires.

I have an idea, its really simple, but I need to see these pics first before I suggest it.

Rich

Stephen,

I typically use 12 or 14 gauge. It is heavy, but it is stronger and it costs me nothing.


As others say, I don't see anything blatantly obvious that would be causing your twisting and your door gaps to close up.

The car could be bending anywhere along the longs between the donut and the front door hinge post and cause the door gaps to change. Did you do a complete inner long reinforcement all the way to the front? I plan on continuing mine up to the front to pick up the front part of the cage that will be installed.

JD brought up a point that I would check out as well. It looks like your door hinges may be sagging for some reason. Your front door gap is inconsistent and the gap looks greater at the top hinge than at the bottom hinge. That point can be moved forward which decreases the gap at the front and increases the gap at the back. Due to collisions, badly replaced fenders, and sagging doors, this can sometimes be necessary, but the gaps should not change much when raising or lowering the vehicle.

just a couple of thoughts.

You cannot adjust the door that way, only in and out to match the fender.

You cannot (without moving metal, or cutting rivets) move that front gap...dont look at it...ignore it.

We can however fix the back if you show me a complete pic like I was talking about...2 people (300 lbs) and non people.

Just how much would you like to wager there buddy? The front gap can be fixed just like the rear gap. As long as the opening will stay a fixed dimension, the gaps can be made fairly even. (no cutting rivets)

How?

I can't sleep anymore because of this issue, it ain't right I know. Okay inside logs the engman kit runs all the way to the front wheel wells, I then extended it on hte passengar side with 12 ga steel, around the lowerr wheel well arch, after that I cut out and welded a pad for the Petty bar, it is 3/8" Steel plate. Both sides where ran all the way back the cockpit and stop at the heater tube intersect. Then on that lower fire wall another piece of the Engmann kit goes accross. Same deal. It took me 4 days to wel it in, taking my time not to introduce to much heat into the chassis.

Roll bar mounts where then added onto of the engmann kit. Again, 12 ga was used and goes for 8 inches down each log, wraps down and rolls over to the floor. Then he roll bar base plate was welded on, 3/8" plate. Roll bar is bolted to this.

Shot of the petty bar arear, I also added a 12 ga plate to the inner fneder on hte outside.

Next on the stiffening block was the rear suspension console. I have 3/16" plate I bent up and welded over the entire ear, under the engine shelf. I added a 3/8" plate to the ear. 3/16" plate at the lower firewall. And the fitup of the bar. Testing I have removed these, they make no difference in door gap function, I did not think that they would.

Mockup shot, I use rod ends to make hte connections, have to be able to remove them to drop the engine. The firewall plates cover up the dimple in hte fire wall. I have added structural foam injection to this area. It is the same stuff Lexus uses on their cars to strengthen the chassis. If it was not so many $$$$ I would fill hte logs full of it. But at 10 pounds a square foot, it could add up quickly.

Outside rear suspension I added a toe adjustment link. It should not do much for stiffness but it shure helps me do my alignments

You can also see my GT kit lower install here, I rosette weld each hole, and add a bead on the seam, I did not seam weld them shut. Behind them is a zinc primer, metal was very good in all cases when I did this, back in 1998. Car hardly evers see rain, and never see salty roads. Theory was let the plates breath a little, kinda like masonery, you have weep holes, just like you do on the logs, doors, etc... That GT kit is all 14 ga stuff.

So while I tried to sleep my head ponder a few ideas and points.

Only time the car is truely effected is when the tires are on hte ground and hte engine is in. Or my butt is in hte drivers seat. But the thing I came up with is two fold. The rear shock comes inot play at this time, it adds force higher on hte tub closer to the line of the top of hte doors. And adds more fulcrume to pull the bottom of the chassi out. The second part of this is that there is only one spot on hte chassis that is not re-enforced and that is the jack post area. It falls inot no mans land, the Engmann kit comes back just infront of it, and the GT kit stops to the rear of it. Is it enough to induce this issue, I don't know. My thought here is that I have stiffened the chassis all aroound but that area, is where the issue shows now.

From the pictures that you posted, it looks like you added a GT style stiffening kit that goes as far forward as the back edge of the jack receivers.

It also looks like you did an inner long stiffener the full length of the interior.

That stiffens the car on both sides of the holes through the longs. I would be willing to go out on a limb and guess that if you were to fully remove the jack recievers, that you would find the rusty metal left there to be warped or buckled somewhat.

I would suggest removing them (carefully if you want to put them back) and adding a stiffening plate across that area. I would open up the long when the jack post is off and take a good look inside to see if you can see where the car is moving. An L shape that wraps around the bottom of the long would increase the strength of the stiffening plate.

You show the door gaps when they are tight, but you don't show them when they are opened up (on jack stands). How much spreading/collapsing is taking place? (1/16". 1/4", 1/2"????)

Is your roll bar tied into your targa bar? Perhaps it should be.

I wish I had all the answers and could tell you definitively where your problem lays, but I don't and can't. All I can do is offer suggestions and ask questions.

Sorry about that I I don't need to take pictures to tell you waht happens, the gap gets smaller and smaller. I actually have bare metal where the door and the post rub.

So what is your idea, the gaps become none existant. I have several, but I asked hte question so I could come up with several answers.

To me the two simplest answers are 1 make it a race car, weld the doors shut, and chop the top, and go hard core. 2nd is add a cage, and rip the dash out and go hard core again and move tho points up to the wheel well area. 3rd is add a door bar, very low in hte chassis, to the fron and use the roll bar ot fix the isue. the 4th is to fix the issue and not bandaid the issue. If the whindsield frame was tronger I would add a bolt down top, like I had planed. I would love todo a 916 steep roof, I never talke the top off, but I ain't quite that tallented. though I bet I could get it close.

Wow you are up late (or early). Still at it at this hour?

That is one of my thoughts also, I just have not made the leap to say yeah lets do it.



I have not measured it, it is noticable I will do that today, and show what Rick wants to see also.




Yes it is at hte seat belt points which is standard. I have also added a harness bar, and a lower crash bar to the desigh, which makes it a complete loop.



John thats all I ask, every one has done a great job.

I think my buddy Jerry is right, I might have over engineered the changes and under engineered the outcome.