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McMark

Jul 15 2007, 11:47 PM

I've been thinking, for awhile now, that it might be nice to have persistent classes for car judging at events. Something that would allow any 914 event to have instant organization for that part of their planning and allow a more broad comparison of cars from one event to the next.

For example, at the WCR we had the following classes:

QUOTE

Best 914/6 - This includes factory cars as well as conversion cars which use a Porsche flat 6 engine. The winner should be judged on the overall cleanliness and quality of their car. Any aftermarket/custom parts would be a detraction from cars in this category.

Best 914/4 - This category is for cars equipped with a Type IV motor. The winner should be judged on the overall cleanliness and quality of their car. Any aftermarket/custom parts would be a detraction from cars in this category.

Best Conversion Car - This category is for cars equipped with any motor not already listed. The winner should be judged on the overall cleanliness and quality of their car. Any aftermarket/custom parts would be a detraction from cars in this category.

Best Custom Car - This is where the wings, fancy wheels, and custom stitched interiors come into play.

RatRod - The winner in this category has the... um... least aesthetics but still runs and drives. No shame in winning here.

What I'm interested in first and foremost, is would you like to see the same categories from event to event, or are things fine the way they are?

SirAndy

Jul 15 2007, 11:52 PM

QUOTE(McMark @ Jul 15 2007, 09:47 PM)

would you like to see the same categories from event to event

i think that's a great idea. if we can get all possible cars covered by the categories, people could compare to cars they have actually never seen ...

Andy

BarberDave

Jul 16 2007, 05:35 AM

W.O.W. , Arn't we getting better organized( we need to) :

1. A common set of rules and classes for shows

2. All shows ,meets under the Ramble label

Might just get more attention from different sponsors

Just My 2 cents Dave

jmmotorsports

Jul 16 2007, 08:35 AM

Best Conversion Car - This category is for cars equipped with any motor not already listed. The winner should be judged on the overall cleanliness and quality of their car. Any aftermarket/custom parts would be a detraction from cars in this category.

Why would aftermarket or custom parts be a detraction in this catagory? How can you build a v8,Suby or anyother conversion car without using aftermarket or custom parts?

Jerry

JoeSharp

Jul 16 2007, 09:28 AM

Mark: One of the things I have noticed is that every one votes for the same car. In order to brake things up a little I submit the fallowing.
At the WCC 06 John Peterson took best of show, best six and best conversion. Kinda hard to get both the last 2.
If you vote for a car more than one time your vote does not count. In other words only vote for a car once. If you like a car for best paint don't try to make it best of show. This helps to spread the winnings out so you get more happy campers.
I would also like to see the WOMEN, with and behind us, get some recognition for their efforts in our World.

thomasotten

Jul 16 2007, 09:31 AM

It seems like there is not much of an in-between class. My car is a not stock, but it doesn't have wings and such all over it either.

boxstr

Jul 16 2007, 09:50 AM

BEST 6 should be factory 914vin#.
BEST 4 would be just that a stock looking in outward appearance 4 cylinder type 4 motored 914.
BEST CONVERSION should be just that, a conversion. I don't think they should crossover !! Electric motor,Subaru,Chev,Buick,Mazda,Nissan, etc. any other power plant, even Porsche.
RATROD, NO NO I don't think this is a term that should describe a hot rod let alone a 914.
UNDER CONSTRUCTION would be a much better term for a car that is not completely assemblled, but still drivable.
BEST MODIFIED (best custom)this should be a 914 that is altered beyond factory components, GT flares, etc. A car that has wings and bulges and modificatiosn that alter the appearance of the car to take it away from the original look of a stock 914.
CCLIN914NATION

ConeDodger

Jul 16 2007, 10:32 AM

Preservation /6 Original condition unmolested
Restoration /6 Restored to original condition
Race /6
Preservation /4 Original condition unmolested
Restoration /4 Restored to original condition
Race /4
Conversion Best 4 to 6 car
Other worldly (powered by?)
Ratrod multicolored fun cars
Peoples Choice Most votes

1970 Neun vierzehn

Jul 16 2007, 11:08 AM

In theory, ConeDodgers' classification approaches PCAs' categories. Certainly workable.

The minefield that we will be entering here will be how to deduct points for un-originality. Does an aftermarket s/w lose points as much as a 4 cyl carb system? Will a 914 with a CD player lose more or less points than a car with an A/M muffler? Does a 5 bolt conversion on a 4 cyl offset a 914 with 911 paint on it? How many points are lost with a Scheel seat.....the same point loss as 195/60 tires? When does (dirty/rusty/worn) originality trump a fresh/pristine/"improved" restoration.

I think if you play hardball with originality, with all the "improved" cars that I've seen on this site and at a club event, there could be a lot of sore and unhappy people. Scoring for all the upgrades on these cars could get very confusing and cumbersome.

I think a further categorization would be an "improved" class, permitting PORSCHE factory upgrades that could include 5 bolt hub upgrades, tires that fit within stock fenders, Euro lenses, OEM wheel, etc.

This won't be easy.

Paul

McMark

Jul 16 2007, 12:46 PM

Jerry/JoeS: In building the categories for the WCR my main focus was to eliminate the multiple wins per car that Joe described. I tried to write the categories so that the winner in one category couldn't possibly win another category. So the best conversion car would be "It's a stock 914, I just wanted a different motor". Whereas the best custom car would be "I wanted to build a car with a certain look".

Craig, I like your "UNDER CONSTRUCTION" class name.

My individual opinion is that I would like to keep away from a points based/rulebook judging system and keep the impromptu/seat-of-the-pants style judging.

Great discussion so far. It sounds like there is some support for this idea. I'll definitely be weighing in on this discussion, but it's up to you all to make the decisions. These are your events, so they should be run the way you all want them to.

davep

Jul 16 2007, 01:12 PM

Having judged at several shows over the past 20 years, I think it would be best to dispense with the 914/4 & 914/6 classes as such.
To replace these classes, have an Originality class (Full CW, with very few mods allowed), and have a Improved class (as Paul says, but limit the number of mods allowed). Cars with more than the limit will naturally fall into the Custom class. A simple conversion of a 914/4 to 914/6 specification would fall into the improved class. A conversion of a 914/6 into a GT might be allowed into the Originality class if it was a faithful conversion, otherwise it would be bumped down.

Basically the idea is to limit the number of classes to a small number, say a maximum of 5. Then try to even out the first three classes (Originality, Improved and Custom) by a division of allowed modifications. Afterall, you want to promote healthy competition.

My thought about putting the /4 and /6 together is that there is usually not enough CW cars to justify the split, and the level of preparation is about the same.

BahnBrenner914

Jul 16 2007, 01:47 PM

My moto is "It's not a show car, it's a GO car." So lets get out and drive!

Chris Pincetich

Jul 16 2007, 02:53 PM

I think the 6 catagory should be REAL VIN# only
I think the 6 conversions should be in the same class as other non-stock engine conversions
I think "Under Construction" or "Work in Progress" is a great class to have
I'd also like to see best "Street Legal Racer"...something for cars like Andy, Elliot, etc.
I think it would be a good compromise to be able to vote for a single 914 for best in a defined class AND Best of Show or People's Choice award, but NOT be able to vote for the same car in 2 classes.
I think 914 events are best judged by the crowd, 914 owners or not, and just tell the CWs to drink a beer and relax

neo914-6

Jul 16 2007, 03:09 PM

Mark,

Who were the winners from the WCR?

I'd add 2nd or 3rd runner ups as there may be more competition in a category. Let's not be so stingy with the awards.

I'd add

Longest driven distance

Best low budget driver

Best race equipped

Gustl

Jul 16 2007, 03:16 PM

QUOTE(BahnBrenner914 @ Jul 16 2007, 08:47 PM)

My moto is "It's not a show car, it's a GO car." So lets get out and drive!

Johny Blackstain

Jul 16 2007, 03:53 PM

I've never done this so my views are that of a inexperienced newbie, but I would like to see:

1. CW/Pure Stock- 4s' & 6s' together & no favoring the six over the four because of the damned engine. Restos allowed, no separate preservation class.

2. Modified/Improved- a real six that has a bigger six in it, a real 4 w/ a bigger/better 4, SS exchangers, pertronix, power windows, etc... Again, sixs' & fours' together, no separation. VW/Porsche customs would fit into this category.

3. Conversion- any & all. Putting a bigger 4, or smaller, in a car that was a four is not a conversion. Any V8, V6, rotary, Subaru, 4 upgraded to a six, six downgraded to a 4, etc... are. This is the custom category.

4. GT/AX- whatever goes here, Can Am rules (you must have a passenger seat

) street legal, not street legal, whatever. But you must race it.

5. WIP- work in progress, covers everyone in the above 4 groups. Gives guys a heads up as to what to expect at the next show/year.

My .02.

Edit: this is a beauty contest, not a moving competition. That is another beast altogether.

1970 Neun vierzehn

Jul 16 2007, 07:39 PM

QUOTE(ChrisNPDrider @ Jul 16 2007, 12:53 PM)

....... and just tell the CWs to drink a beer and relax

Wine, the CWs drink wine and eat cheese. (CW=Cheese and Wine)

scotty b

Jul 16 2007, 07:52 PM

THe coveted "best of show" would go to a car that has a technical win in the most catagories. HOWEVER you express a desire to prevent one car from cleaning up so you might take the runner ups (2nd place cars) in the other catagories as the winner of that individual catagory. Make sense?

scotty b

Jul 16 2007, 07:53 PM

I used to compete at the Bug Outs in Manasses and they would only allow 3 1st places in your class then you got vumped up to the " full custom " class. Those were/are the big dogs. Most of the guys who got bumped up there never showed up again

JRust

Jul 16 2007, 08:15 PM

I set up a few meets here in the Pacific NW a while back. I made up a bunch of categories. I don't remember them all but one of the favorites. Keep in mind most 914 owners qualified for this in some way shape or for. The category was [b]"MOST RUST"[b]

I don't remeber who actually took that award home. I am sure it is framed & on their wall at home though

While the above is true. I think whatever the categories are they shouldn't be a huge deal. I think most of our cars are works in progress. So include some categories that are for the ordinary joe like me. I probably will not fit or win any of the categories you listed. That is fine as I really don't mind or expect it. I guess my suggestion is make it a fun thing & not one that people are going to be upset about either way.

Best of luck whatever you guys decide. The events overall are the best because we get to BS with fellow teeners!

ConeDodger

Jul 16 2007, 11:03 PM

QUOTE(1970 Neun vierzehn @ Jul 16 2007, 10:08 AM)

I think the real difference between what I have proposed and what the PCA does is that we don't have no stinkin' uptight judges with white gloves looking for hair in the carpet... Use the classes but still make it a people's choice event.

dgw

Jul 16 2007, 11:45 PM

Fewer classes are better. Something like:

914/6 - real vin
914/4
work in progress, most cosmetically challenged but running
anything modified: engine, body work, etc

The cleanest cars win. Originality is a crock and should be avoided to the extent possible, as it will only produce endless arguments.

I used to hang with a 356 nut who won a Manhattan at Parade one year. These guys used to rag on the judges constantly for deducting originality points. The general consensus of the entrants was the judges couldn't find their ass with both hands. Of course the judges had a different opinion.

Rusty

Jul 17 2007, 02:05 AM

Mark,

These were the rules we used in MUSR 2002. There were no complaints about the classes, etc.

QUOTE

Mid US Ramble 2002 Car Show Rules

1. The car show judging will start promptly at 10:30 am. The Car Show Chair will notify owners 5 minutes prior to the time judging begins. Only light dusting is allowed once judging begins. Cars for all classes except Elegance de la Ramble will be judged by car show entrants. Elegance de la Ramble judging is described below.

2. Cars will not be shown in the same area they are prepared. Owners will move their cars into the appropriate areas prior to the start of the show. All cars will be parked together by class (e.g. all Stock 914/4s together, etc). Class parking will be clearly marked.

3. The following classes will be considered: Stock 914-4, Stock 914-6, Modified 914-4, Modified 914-6 or 914-8, Best Daily Driver, Dirtiest Engine Bay, Best of Show (People's Choice), Elegance de la Ramble (optional entry) Judging.

4. The show will cover two general categories: Stock and Modified. Cars should be judged based on quality in following categories: Exterior, Interior, Engine, and Cardex (and other accompanying documents).

5. Owners may volunteer to remove caps, lids or covers for judges, provided no tools are required. Doors, hoods, etc, may be opened as the owner desires to show the car. All engine lids should be open. The car show will be top-side and engine bay only judging. No undercarriages will be included in judging.

6. The criteria for consideration as the Best Daily Driver will be a car that is driven a minimum of 4000 miles per year. (Honor system)

7. Any one of the following items will place a car immediately into Modified Class:
a. /6 or /8 cylinder engine conversion
b. Modification of body beyond factory design, to include a partial installation of a 914/6 GT kit (GT fenders, flares & rockers)
c. Conversion of the inductions system (to/from carbs)
d. 5-lug wheel conversions

8. Any three of the following modifications to the same car will place it into a Modified class:
a. Color change
b. Non-stock wheels (Fuchs, Mahle, Pedrini or steel)
c. Addition of duct work for cooling
d. Brake conversion (i.e. to BMW 325i brakes)
e. Significant interior changes: (i.e. ”Getty Dash”, electronic gauge package, stripped interior.)
f. Stock bumper conversion (i.e. 1970 bumpers on a 1976 car)
g. Cup holders ;-)

10. The “Elegance de la Ramble” (Elegance) Class is an optional class, judged under PCA National Concours Rules by a panel of three judges. An owner must specify during registration if (s)he would like to enter the Elegance Class. The Elegance class judges will judge cars according to originality and restoration. They will grade the same areas on the same categories listed in Rule 3. In the Elegance Class, the judges’ decisions are final.

11. At registration, owners will be responsible for placing their cars into an appropriate class. Assistance will be available during registration and on the first day after registration if there are any questions or concerns. Any protests should be brought to the Car Show Chair prior to the end of the show. The decision of the Car Show Chair, after consultation with the Elegance Judges, shall be final.

Rusty

Jul 17 2007, 02:15 AM

More thoughts:

1. Have enough rules & structure to make it official... but not so many it becomes a burden. This should be fun.
2. We had first, second & third awards for the 914-4s. First and second for the 914-6s. Attendants judged EVERY class except for the Elegance class.
3. More classes means more opportunity for folks to win. I don't generally believe that everyone who competes should win something (like most kids sports), but who wouldn't want to take a trophy home for their efforts?

4. Trying to do the car show during a rain-storm kind of eliminates the "light dusting" issue.

5. It should all be done in fun.

Toast

Jul 17 2007, 02:04 PM

How about Best STOCK 4/6.

It takes alot of money to keep them stock too ya know.

(part of the reason why I dont want to drive my 914 events anymore)

Jasfsmith

Jul 17 2007, 02:25 PM

QUOTE(Lawrence @ Jul 17 2007, 04:05 AM)

Mark,

These were the rules we used in MUSR 2002. There were no complaints about the classes, etc.

QUOTE

Mid US Ramble 2002 Car Show Rules

3. The following classes will be considered: Stock 914-4, Stock 914-6, Modified 914-4, Modified 914-6 or 914-8, Best Daily Driver, Dirtiest Engine Bay, Best of Show (People's Choice), Elegance de la Ramble (optional entry) Judging.

My only suggestion would be to change the word "Stock" to "Preservation" (where originality is the thing), "Modified" to "Restored/Modified" (where originality is not of prime importance, cleanilness is) and add a class called "Restoration" (where quality of restoration to original equipment spec is prime).

Rusty

Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM

They were general categories... although my votes usually go to nicely preserved cars, there was no official emphasis on preservation, especially if you can have two of the following options and still be considered "generally stock"

QUOTE

8. Any three of the following modifications to the same car will place it into a Modified class:
a. Color change
b. Non-stock wheels (Fuchs, Mahle, Pedrini or steel)
c. Addition of duct work for cooling
d. Brake conversion (i.e. to BMW 325i brakes)
e. Significant interior changes: (i.e. ”Getty Dash”, electronic gauge package, stripped interior.)
f. Stock bumper conversion (i.e. 1970 bumpers on a 1976 car)
g. Cup holders ;-)

Elliot Cannon

Jul 17 2007, 06:16 PM

Rules should be left up to the organizers of the event. They should be a little different each time. Do we really need to get that structured.
Cheers, Elliot

SGB

Jul 17 2007, 06:31 PM

And now we have to organize judging around the country for the "First Virtual 914 World Concours D'World"

I'm only half joking...
it could be done.

dflesburg

Jul 17 2007, 10:27 PM

Why seek gratifcation from the approval of others? The journey is more important than the accomplishment...

Thats why I work on my own car.

Whats the joy in having someone tell you the car you paid others to build for you is cool?

No joy there.

SGB

Jul 17 2007, 10:33 PM

QUOTE(dflesburg @ Jul 17 2007, 11:27 PM)

I think most of us work on our own cars, too. In fact, thats why a fellow 914 owner appreciates and understands the efforts we all make to keep these old go-karts going even more than, say, a 911 owner. hehehehe

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