Stupid effin car. Pardon me whilst I vent.

I bought the thing 3 years ago, promptly started doing the following:
Removed floorboard tar
Replaced relay baord
replaced injectors
replaced fuel lines (twice)
Replaced all hoses
Replaced rear reflector
Replaced seats
Rebuilt pedal cluster
Installed new clutch cable
Installed new Accel cable
Fixed turn signlals
Fixed Ebrake

Found that the floorboard/battery tray were rusted through so I bought a welder and taught myself how to weld and then proceeded to:
Weld in new drivers floorboard
POR15'd all floorboards
Welded in new seat mounts
Cut out rust from longs and welded in my fabricated patches
Installed stock front sway bar after welding on U-tabs
Welded in new battery tray
Removed small bit of rust from front trunk channel and Por15'd it and re-installed nice rubber seal

Replaced bug steel wheels with polished Mahles
Installed new carpet
replaced broken fog lamp
replaced cracked tail light lens
replaced ground strap from tranny
replaced all shifter bushings
de-rusted inside of gas tank, and re-painted
replaced fuel pump
replaced center console bulbs
Installed the JWest engine lid thingy so I could use the stock springs after the original hinge broke off
And I just got early bumpers ready to be repainted then installed in place of the heavy '75 ones

Here's where I'm at now:

I heard some knocking in the engine and decided to learn how to do a valve adjustment, and after much reading of posts here, I tackled it. Unfortunately I have hydraulic lifters (I knew the car had them when I bought it, but didn't know what it meant). After wrestling with the stupid valve covers I made adjustments as instructed by many of the postings here (don't worry, I didn't adjust them as though they were the non-hydro type), and when I got the valve covers back on I drove around and had the same freakin' clackity-clack noise that I had before, only now I had oil dumping out all over my right heat exchanger. I guess the valve cover either isn't seated properly, or the new cork gastket isn't doing it's job. Hopefully I just need to reseat the valve cover. Either way it looks like a major oil spill on my garage floor.

So here I am with 2 questions:
1) How the FUCH do you get the valve cover spring thing (bail?) back on without moving the cover? I can pry the thing off easily enough by popping off one side of the spring, but when it comes to re-installing it, it won't push up over the valve cover unless I use the a big-ass screw driver and the heat exchanger for leverage (something I know I shouldn't do).

2) since my engine is still knocking loudly, or ticking, or puking or whatever, do I assume it needs a rebuild? If so, can it be rebuilt back to specs with NO hydros?, or should I just sell the car and take a big $ loss on the original purchase price?
I just found out that I may have my first little one on the way and there isn't enough $$ or time to do what I would like to do, which would be to buy a Raby kit, find a 6, or rebuild it myself. Oh yeah, how much does a rebuild typically cost? (It's a 2 liter).

Robert. the valve cover goes on upside down. With the VW logo at the top. (pointing towards the sky)

And yea I just use a BIG screw driver to pop em on... Just like you.

Ask for some help from the Washington guys that build engines. Theres a covy of them up your way. They may well be able to help you discern the knocking sound and what the hell it may be.

I highly suggest you DON'T drive the car until you figure out what is making the sound.

The Boyzz here can help ya out with a rebuild.

A cheap rebuild costs me round 1500 bucks and I do all the disassembly and assembly.
Thats done right and to stock specs. This the the engine only. Not the induction, exhaust or ignition, tin or anything ancillary to the block, barrels and heads. This assumes the heads are repairable. And not cracked beyond repair.
Guys on this board have done it for less. Just depends on your mechanical ability. And KNOWING a very good type IV machinist that knows more than us. (lucky me, I have 2) And sourcing parts at the best price possible.

Add 300+ plus bucks for a Jake 9550 and lifters + oil and whatever else he dictates. (his cams and parts are some of the very best.)

Thats my experience. Yours may well be different.

Clayton

NOTE: IMHO A very simple style performance build starts at around 2800 bucks and can go up fast after that. Last one I helped on for a guys race buggy was 12K. And that was cheapo rebuild when you consider the end result.

Easy to tell, set a very large Hav-a-heart trap in the middle of your garage. Place

a bottle of whiskey in for bait...and wait. In the morning check the trap, If you see

oily foot prints and a sea fairing drunk in the trap, and he answers to Captain

Joseph Hazelwood, Then yes it was the Exxon Valdez.

As I remember the oil pumpers (hydro lifters) had a different case. But you don't

need a 2.0 case, you can use a 1.7 case if you want.

And a Major congrats on the future you running around.

Yup, I put it on upside down (which is the same way it was when I took it off). Funny that the driver's side was right-side up when I took it off, and seemed to only fit tight when I put it back the same way. Getting the covers off wasn't too bad once I realized I could just pop the spring off- it's getting them back ON that's been a beyatch.

Clayton- thanks for the additional rebuild info, I'll be looking into local shops to see what they charge- I'd love to do it myself, but full-time work & full-time school doesn't leave me much free time to tackle such a project.



Thank you, it's a bit too early to be sure (wife just did the pregnancy test) so lots can happen between now and 9 months out, but excited at the possibility just the same

you can put some grease on the valve cover where the bail rides to make it easier.

Any chance my clicking noise could be from the timing being off? I have never checked that, although I know it was done about 5k miles ago. Or is clicking from the engine a good indicator that a rebuild is necessary?

"Clicking," is a very nebulous term.

Pushrods not seated correctly

Adjustment screws sticking out to far and hitting valve cover

Loose rocker pedstal studs

collapsed lifters

worn pistons

something in the impeller housing

loose impeller

cracked alternator mount or pulley

loose tin

loose heater components (warm air guides,etc.)

And the list goes on and on.

To check for rod knock .... start engine and have someone hold the RPMs at about 2 - 2.5k. If clicking is heard, pull each spark plug wire off .... if clicking goes away on one paticular cylinder, you have began isolating the problem.

Knocking can be timing related .......

Get a mechanics' stethoscope and listen to various areas of the engine .... isolate area where sound is coming from before you start throwing bucks (Oh, a long screwdriver held up to the ear works too .... unless your deaf like me)

[quote]
Get a mechanics' stethoscope and listen to various areas of the engine .... isolate area where sound is coming from before you start throwing bucks (Oh, a long screwdriver held up to the ear works too .... unless your deaf like me)






Hi Ron:

If the above was not a joke, I would like to share something with you. A friend of mine has a brother that is hearing impared. The school he went to to learn to funtion as a deaf person taught him to put a wood dowel (or screwdriver) behind the ear in the little indent where the bottom of the ear meets the head. I guess the eardrum is closer their, so the vibrations are stronger.Anyway, if you knew this already...Nevermind.

No joke .... my hearing loss is in the range of womens'/childrens' voices and is getting worse (meaning I can ignore everyone).

The screwdriver acts much as the wooden dowel you speak of ... it actually transmits the sound vibrations to the bone mass surrounding the ear drum as I remember and a hearing aid does somewhat the same .... amazing what you can hear inside an engine. The stethoscope makes you look more professional .....

If it is a TICK_TICK_TICK, It is likely those hydro lifters I think (BTDT). Try some marvel mystery oil. Get a can of "valve medic" or some other solvent if that does not work. If it is worse, like CLANK_CLANK_CLANK, maybe teardown is needed, but unless it is really sick, I would try the above.

Ticking sound speeds up with engine speed, sound definitely seems to be coming from the passenger side. Hydro lifters yes, but it didn't make this sound until about 4 weeks ago, and then it got progressively louder. Reminds me of when my sister forgot to put oil in her oil burning toyota and damn near fried the engine. She was driving it on practically no oil, and then it developed a similar sound.

When adjusting the valves I set them to .006 to get the lifters pumped up, drove around for 10 minutes, then set them to zero plus 1 turn. Didn't change the sound at all.

I will try pulling plug wires and see if it affects the noise....

Thanks for the continued input guys.

Pressurized oil is forced into a chamber in the bottom of the lifter through a check valve. When the lifter begins to move up the ramp of the cam, the check valve closes to trap the oil in that chamber and make the lifter act like a solid lifter and open the valve.

A tick is almost always caused by a piece of grit in the check valve, allowing oil to reverse flow out of the chamber when the valve opens. Then when the valve is closed, there isn't enough time to refill and readjust before it's called upon to open again.

Other less likely possibilities- foamed oil (lots of air, which compresses), low oil pressure, bad lifter (too much clearance between plunger and body)

Clean oil is the real key to keeping the hydros quiet. Did the PO change the oil regularly? You can get a sense from the rocker gear but also from the screen. I'd probably do an oil change maybe to 10W-30 with something in there to clean it out, then another change in maybe 500 miles to a quality 20W-50.

If that doesn't work, you'll need to find which lifter is ticking and rebuild it. It's not a bad or expensive job, and it's a good opportunity to visually check the cam lobe using a flashlight through the lifter bore. Also carefully check the lifter base for wear (shouldn't be concave) - or worse (galling). When you reassemble the lifter, leave it empty. These days the cam grinders almost unanimously say to assemble with lifters empty. It'll pump up faster than it will bleed down, and it won't be holding the valves open while it's pumping up. It's noisy until it settles in-like the hammers of hell. I've done a lot of hydro work in the past year, and on my 914 it take about 8 miles at moderate RPM- maybe 3000- and then all of a sudden it goes quiet. If you replace the lifter, use all of the practices as for a new engine breakin as regards oil additives. And don't use Meyle lifters. Get them from VW or Isky.

What weight oil are you using? The heavier the oil, the longer they will take to self adjust, especially when cold. I'm using a 20W-50 with my hydros.
How far did you drive it after the lifter adjustment? It takes a while to adjust down using the process you used, and until they've adjusted the engine would run a bit rough. They'll actually adjust down while the car is sitting because of the constant force of the valve spring on them.

Good luck!

jk76.914, thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. I was actually following one of your posts in a previous thread on how to adjust them.

Have patience with me here as I'm new to working on engines, but I can learn.

I'm using 5w30 mobile 1 synthetic, and have done 2 oil changes since adjusting the valves, and have changed the oil every 2k miles.

I drove around for about 10 minutes after both valve adjustments (the first was when I set the valves to .006, the second when I set them to 0 plus 1 full turn).
I didn't drive anymore than 10 minutes because the noise seemed to be getting louder than it was originally, and also because it turned out that I didn't have a good seal on the valve cover and I ended up with oil all over an exchanger and decided to call it an evening at that point.

Showing my ignorance, but I am assuming that the engine needs to come out if I want to try and look at the cam lobe (and what I would I be looking for?).
I don't know what kind of lifters I have, but are they interchangable? If I have Meyle's, can I just replace a bad lifter with another brand? If I replace one, do I need to replace them all- that is if I can determine which lifter is the culprit. Can I do this with the engine in the car?

Also, do I run the risk of causing major damage by trying to get the lifter to self adjust?

Lastly, there is no noticible loss of power since the noise started happening.

Sorry for all the questions, I feel like a big lame-o, and I'm not looking forward to dumping oil all over myself again when I remove the valve covers.

Isn't 5w30 *really* thin for these motors? I run 20w50.

Hang in there Robert.

Oh boy another Lame-O!

Man, I've done ALL that and worse.
The engine doesn't have to come out to look at a lifter, but it does get kinda involved in some valve rocker assembly and push-rod tube removal.

That oil is way too thin. It needs 50 wt. I still vote for a can of marvel mystry oil too _but not with the 30 wt oil

With the hydrualic cam, it probably has webcam supplied lifters (mine does).

Don't jump to any hasty conclusions.

Before you take anything apart, lets reflect....
when you did the valve adjust, were any wa-ay off? Did any seem to stick out farther when the rocker was not pushing the valve open?

If you do take the rocker assembly off, keep track to put it all back in the same spots

I've got a pic I've got to find where I replaced the seals on the push-rod tubes that shows what I'm talking about- stand by...

rob, did jerry have any info for you?

k

Hey Kevin- I'm going to call him today, I finally found the receipt from the lonblock rebuild that the PO had done in '97. Funny, the receipt shows a 12 year warranty!
BTW, the seat looks great in the car, thanks again. I'm sure it will look even better when the car is running again.

Thanks Scott, here's the answer to your questions:

When I did the valve adjustment, none of the valves seemed off- I had to lossen them all by at least 1 turn before they weren't touching anymore.

None of them necessarily seemed to stick out farther when the rocker was not pushing the valve open, but then again it's possible. I could try and actually measure how far they are out when fully extended.


Looking forward to pics, I'll try and take some myself on Saturday.

Thanks again!

-R

Back to the oil- I agree that the 5w-x oil is thin for these, and that 20w-50 is a better choice. You want the oil to be thin enough to bleed down when it needs to to self-adjust, but too thin and it will bleed down when you don't want it to and it'll keep the adjustment on the loose side. This is mainly at idle and slow speed.

So sounds like the consensus recommendation is to put something in to clean the system, run it for awhile, and then change the oil to a quality 20W-50. There are lots of threads here about which oil to use. Also, check out the LN Engineering website for their article on oil.

As far as what additive to put in? I have no experiece with any of them. I've heard AT fluid works, but I'd probably try Marvel Mystery Oil myself. Or go down to FLAPS and see what they've got on the shelf that's a reputable brand, and then follow the instructions. Keep in mind, if your real problem is the thin oil, the additive may clean out the lifters, but they'll still tick until after your oil change.

Jim

I just reread your earlier post. Mobil 1 does quite a good job cleaning out engines on its own.

In fact, I blew a Saab engine by switching over to Mobil 1. Seems the PO had NEVER changed the oil, and when I started with my Mobil 1 and regular changes, it loosened up so much crud that it blocked the pickup screen. I coasted to the side of the road and shut it off when the oil pressure light came on, and after a tow and $5000 for a used engine, I was off and running again. The inside of the engine looked like it was covered with burned on meatloaf.

From this, I'd speculate that your engine is probably already pretty clean inside. (After my Saab experience, I'd check the oil screen though!) So you might want to just go right to the oil/filter/screen change and see if that doesn't fix your problem.

You don't need to take the engine out to replace a lifter and do a visual on the cam lobe, as SGB pointed out earlier. He also said- don't jump to any hasty conclusions! Chances are your engine is just fine.

My problem with Meyles is getting oil to the head, not ticking. One issue at a time.

IFF the ticking is the lifter, there's little chance of major engine damage as you work through this.

Jim

Thanks again all for the advice. I will get back under the car this weekend and will give a progress report when I can. maybe I'll even record the sound of the engine to you can all hear what I'm hearing.

More soon....

sorry i did getto these very fast...

Scott,

thanks for the pics- doesn't look so intimidating now...

I was able to get the valve cover back on with no leaking, nice.

Did another oil and filter change, also cleaned out the strainer which was pretty clean already:

Click to view attachment

I switched to non synthetic 20/50. I only went to the non synthetic because the FLAPS didn't carry any synthetic in that weight.
I also added some marvel mystery oil (about 12 ounces) along with the oil.

Funny thing, when I started it up, no clicking, then after it ran for a few minutes it started up again and stayed during the 20 minutes I drove the car around (and fairly hard, but not too hard).

When I pulled spark plug wire #4, the clicking disappeared. So, I guess I narrowed down where it's at. I also recorded some audio of the egine where you can plainly here what I'm hearing, but I'm not sure how to make it available here. It's an mp3 file that only lasts about 10 seconds. I'll work on finding a place where it can be accessible from this site tomorrow.

Last but not least, here's a shot of the offending side of the engine where the noise is coming from. I know this photo doesn't tell anyone much about the rocker geometry, but with the heat exchangers in the way, it was all I was up for for now.

Click to view attachment

Here is the MP3: Or download it: here.

A big thanks to McMark for posting the audio file for me.

The ticking doesn't sound as offending as it did before the audio compression, but I think it comes through good enough to give a good idea as to what I'm hearing.

I can hear what I think you're talking about. But can't identify it from that sample. Could be an exhaust leak, or a million other things... Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Just spoke to the person who rebuilt the engine 10 years ago, and based on my description (noise isn't there for the first minute or so when engine is cold and then gets louder as the engine warms up) he thinks it's a rod bearing.

Does this sound plausible?
Hoping this isn't the case, as I am not in any position to pay for a rebuild.

From the audio file it sounds like an exhaust leak. I have had a few that I thought was something with the valvetrain on other cars and it always surprises me when it turns out to be an exhaust leak.

When I think of exhaust leak, I think of a hole in the heat exchanger or muffler, but do you mean something else? If the sound goes away when pulling #4 spark plug wire would that still be a possible exhaust leak?

Well, I don't hear a lifter ticking in that sound byte. Lifter is more metallic, in my opinion.

Visually, the setup looks a lot better then my hydro did when I first set it up. My adjuster screws had to be in much farther because the kit pushrods were so much too short.

Sounds like a pretty smooth idle. Out of curiosity, how's your idle vacuum?

Anyway, I'd probably ensure the exhaust is secure next, as JaminM3 suggested. I had a leak at the exhaust head gasket myself, that sounded at first like valve train noise. I redid mine, and annealed the copper rings as suggested in the article at Ratwell.com, and they sealed perfectly the second time.

I'll leave it to proper authorities as to whether this may be a rod bearing or not. Can't imagine why it should be, but I have no first hand experience with the noises they make.

Jim

Depends... It could still be an exhaust leak, IF it was at or close to the head (because pulling a plug would indeed make a difference in sound there, as you would hear it when that cylinder fires.) But if it was farther down the line in the HE or muffler, then no - one cylinder wouldn't change it so much.

It's really hard to tell without hearing it in person. Maybe some of us locals can get together Saturday?

Thanks Rand,

If anyone's game, I'd be happy to serve up some lunch & beers in trade for some additional eyes and ears. My saturday is fairly wide open until 4pm or so.

Here's and easy one...check to see if the #4 sparkplug is tight and not crossthreaded.

If it's not that, I'd vote for an exhaust leak based on the sound clip.

Bryan

Maybe there is a leak on that cylinder's exhaust flange?
I'm just saying it is a lot easier to try to fix an exhaust leak than rebuild your valvetrain.

rob, if the 2 pieces of tin that connect the hes to the case are off, start the car, climb under, listen right at the head to he connections with a piece of hose. you'll know straight away if there is a leak. you may even be able to feel the exhaust gases escaping. if the bfast wasn't happening i'd come up. i suggested a leak when we did the seat exchange...remember?

k

yup, will do. I talked to Jerry at NW Connecting Rod too, he was able to tell me the specs for adjusting the valves, and offered to listen to the engine to help determine what the issue is. However, I'd like to do all the troubleshooting I can do before I drive it over (and possible damage the engine).

would be good to have another set of eyes though just the same. So anyone's who is local and game (and wants some free food) please let me know if you can stop by and I'll set a time and give directions.

Did some more poking around under the car- damn it gets hot under these cars when they're running.
I didn't detect any exhaust leaks, but using a hose up to one ear in an attempt to locate where the sound is coming from, it seemed to be coming from up in this space:
Click to view attachment

So my question is, if I had a stuck lifter, would I hear it more from inside the case or from just under the cover for the heads? Because when listening on the outer side of the cover for the head in the same location I'm not hearing much.

In my experience, that louder valve noise WAS the exhaust leak, and that is right where I heard it. Using the same vacuum hose in the ear method. Yep. Just test it to I think 10 ft-lbs (I have not checked this figure). It might snug up.

Unless something major happened to you engine, its gonna be the top end thats gonna go way before the bottom end. Worst case, you have to change the rod bearings which can be done without splitting the case. Rebilding from the rod bearings up is no big deal. Gasket leaks from siting are gonna be your biggest problems.

exhaust leak ... right there ... the nut is next to your red "circle"

rob, give me a call this evening if you have some time.

k

If that's it, I'll be very happy.

I'm getting ahead of myself, but if the bolts are indeed tight, then does that mean that I need to remove all of the exaust stuff, and put in new gaskets and replace the nuts holding that part on? (assuming that there are gaskets at that location and they're the reason for the leak.)



Will do!

Again, thanks for all the help on this guys...

Yep, that will be the drill. The gaskets are really copper rings. They need to be annealed (heated and allowed to cool) before use to make 'em soft. Even worst case, which would be the exhaust stud pulling out of the head, is not as bad as all that engine tear-down stuff. In my case I was able to tap the hole (my first time with a tapping set, upside down and grinding away on the single most expensive part of the engine) for a "step-stud" that has not pulled back out yet anyway.

Hey Robert...

Question: If you start out in first gear, nice and slow, lugging, then step on it a bit.... Do you hear a difference in the ticking sound? Usually the sound of an exhaust leak close to the head will change a little when you lug it and then put the gas to it.

And... I am going to be pulling my exhaust system off and reworking it soon. If you want to come over when I do that, let me know. I have all the gaskets, including those copper rings. You'd be able to see the process of hooking and pulling the old ones out, and getting the new ones seated.

Sorry I missed you this weekend... It was my son's birthday. Maybe this coming weekend?

No worries Rand, I appreciate the offer but I might have a chance at
getting this done myself- if in fact it is an exhaust leak, AND I can figure
out a way to get a socket on the exhaust nuts that hold the exhaust/exchangers to the underside of the engine.

I found them all to be loose, but I can only get a socket on the 2 inner ones. I even tried Loosening them up all the way and trying to move the exaust tubes a bit to give me more room on the back ones, but I can't get the tubes to budge. Not sure if I'm being very clear here.

Any tricks for getting a socket on them so I can tighten the exhaust nuts and see if the 'noise' goes away?

Just tried using the search function. Looks like I'm ahead of the game
by having the exhaust nuts loose already, and I should just remove them the rest of the way and get the 12mm replacements which should allow a socket to fit in there.

Damn, would be nice to pull out all this ugly '75 exhaust & tin out and replace with a shiny SS exhaust...

Wow, I think I've spent most of the last 2 years in the garage...

Prizes to all who said it was an exhaust leak.
I was able to tighten the exhaust bolts on the passenger side, and low and behond- noise-b-gone. You all rock!
I was also able to find a socket to fit easily over the 13mm exhaust nuts. My nice craftsman socket wouldn't fit, but a crappy taiwanese one that I got in a set when I was 12 years old fit like a charm!

Only one problem, when tightening one of them down the hold stud turns and comes farther out of the case by the looks of it. One thing ALWAYS leads to another on these cars....

So, my new question: Is there an easy way to get the exhaust stud back in the case all nice and tight so I can get the exhaust nut tightened down properly?

Welcome to the pulled exhaust stud club. That's why I am LITERALLY afraid of working on old motor exhausts. There are lots of scary ways that you can fix it. If you're lucky, steady handed, and good at visual alignment, you can drill and tap for a helicoil or oversize stud. More often than not, you'll misalign it and your exhaust won't fit.

The right way would be pulling the motor, take the head off and having a pro (Len Hoffman) replace them. And if you go that route, for goodness sakes, do all 8.

I feel your pain.

Hey McMark... up here we have Jeff Hines... Sixnotfour... to do amazing machine work.

Robert, if you need to find someone to do the helicoil let me know and I can get a hold of the right people.

Jon

I'm one of many who had the same thing happen. I replaced the 8mm stud with a 9mm/8mm step stud. I just tapped the hole out to 9mm. Then it pulled again. When you pull an 8mm stud, the hole left behind isn't big enough to tap to 9mm and get a full depth thread, plus the walls of the hole aren't smooth- lots of surface fractures.

Because I now had a pulled 9mm hole, I had to go with a time-sert. A 10mm step stud probably would have pulled for the same reason the 9mm one did. The 9mm time-sert has an outside thread that's bigger than 10mm, so I got a deep enough thread to hold.

I had NO problems drilling the hole out, tapping for the insert, and then installing it. I think about 10 minutes did it, working very carefully. The drill bit from the kit goes in like a hot knife in butter, and you use a tap wrench to drill by hand, not a drill, so there's really little danger of going too deep.

Anyway, in your case, since you've pulled an 8mm stud, you can probably tap to 10mm and use a 10mm/8mm step stud and get the bite and a good fix for less money. My 9mm timesert kit cost me $90, including 5 inserts. That's not cheap.