Hey guys, this is something of a continuation thread with it's own branch off the first thread here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76175

I installed a mallory promaster e-coil, a ballast resistor, and a mallory unilite from jake.

I wired it up EXACTLY to the specs in the manual that came with the unilite. I have my timing light and it's showing the mark for TDC on #1 as the engine turns over, so it's throwing spark.

I get NO catch at all on the engine, regardless how far i advance or retard the timing.

Some backstory here: the p.o had some timing marks set up on the fan and they looked good. I pull off the distributor as I rotate the engine by the tire and it turns out it's on cylinder 3. the timing marks are there for cylinder 3. what was wierd though, the marks are there and i could see a timing mark the p.o. painted on there with the timing light on cylinder 1. WTF is going on here? Is it possible the cam is installed 180* off? will the engine even run that way? please help me!!!!!

I rotated the engine to #1 TDC, which was also marked, and then painted my advance mark from the pelican website.

the timing as fully advanced was around 2 -4 degrees below the mark that was there when the engine was running, explaining a lot of how it was running.

The mark on the bottom of the flywheel corresponds to NO cylinder.

i'm so friggen bummed about this engine as it seems VW canada was smoking copious amounts of BC bud when they were making it...

The engine ran before so the cam should be installed correct, right? If you put in a new distributor, perhaps check the plug wires for correct wiring?

If the engine won't run at all, maybe do a sanity check by pulling a wire and get an old plug, ground the plug and see if you see spark. If you have spark on all 4 wires, then it sounds like the wires may be mixed up.

Spoke

Follow the Mallory MSD instructions on testing the unit.

it's a mallory unilite distributor, not an msd unit.

and I have the plug wires correctly connected.

the engine will stumble and try to catch, but it jus wont ignite

Look quit being a stuborn *&^%$

Index the engine to TDC #1 Cylinder DO NOT USE THE TIMING WARKS OF THE DAPO.
Pull the valve cover observe both valves closed for #1 and then observe the piston coming up to TDC through the spark plug hole. use a plastic straw of something soft.

Now see where the rotor is in relation to the cap and plug wire for #1.

Are you lined up for a spark to the right hole?

1 4 3 2 (firing order) # 1 cylinder is identified by the big huge number stamped on the tin.

i'm not being stubborn.

i pulled the plugs on all but #1 and rotated the wheel with the tranny in 5th until i could feel the compression coming up.

it just so happens that th DAPO had a mark at the exact right place, i added my own marks for advance using the pelican template.

does the rotor in #1 face the forward right of the car? because that's how mine is. the plug wires are connected in 1432 order.

it's not for lack of trying i really did read up on this before i tried it

Like a chopstick?

Carlos

PULL the valve covers and watch the rockers.... find TDC by that way.

your pulley should have a ' 0 ' on it for TDC also.

Mybe the dizzy itself is not seated correctly? It is not hard to pull it out and reset just to be sure...

I like to have a friend turn her over while I twist the distributor back and forth until she starts.

I use the same components together dozens of times per year, I have had ONE Mallory fail to start out of hundreds sold.

More than likely you either have a grounding problem or something is not connected properly, or the timing is off severely as mentioned above.

You must first verify spark before going further. Did these parts come from my Store? If so I will call you up and walk you through troubleshooting.

I had my dad turn it over while i was twisting the dizzy back and forth, I had it at one point so advanced that i could see the 27* mark coming up at one point.

The dizzy is seated down there very well.

my pulley has a whiteout mark there for TDC, but at this point i dont trust the engine markings anymore.

The mark on the flywheel doesnt correspond to any cylinder's TDC

i have +12v going to one side of the ballast resistor, the yellow + to the promaster coming off the other side.

I have the green from the dizzy connected to the black of the promaster.

I have the brown grounded to the fan shroud where the coil used to mount.

I get ~12v from the +12v to the fan shroud ground so it's a good ground. everything is securely mounted on grommets on the firewall.

The ballast resistor lets something like +4v through to the coil, is this right?

I get the timing light to work with this setup while the engine is turning over.

I did buy this from your store Jake, the only thing I havent done is pull the valve covers to verify #1 tdc because I'm wary of this engine leaking like a stuck pig if i do that, since nothing ever works right with this old thing.

I think you need like 9 VDC to make the coil fire. Bad ground try connecting directly to the case. Or the ballast resistor is too big.

The rotor pointing forward and to the right of the car means you are 180 degrees out. (IT IS IN BACKWARDS)

This explains why when you keep twisting the distributor way past 27 that iti "almost" fires.

I tried playing musical plugs moving the plug wires around by one in a clockwise fashion.

from the front right of the dizzy i started with

1432
then
4321
then
3214
then
2143
then
1432

all i got from the other ones was really wierd noises that sounded like dropping a grapefruit in a toilet, or backfires

i dont remember the EXACT voltage coming off the ballast, but it looks like enough to trigger spark, because the timing light is picking up SOMETHING and blinking while i'm cranking the engine.

when you align the distributor, do you align the arrow on the disc with the mark on the dizzy case, or do you align the rotor with the mark on the dizzy case? if I align the mark on the dizzy case, with the arrow, it puts the rotor facing the front right of the car. i put plug wire # 1 here, with # 4 clockwise from that, #3 clockwise from that, #2 clockwise from that.

I should think it doesnt matter what direction the rotor is facing, as long as the order of the plug wires remains the same, as it loops through them in the same order every time. as long as i start the loop on #1, right? I'm a programmer, i'm trying to think of this in programmer terms, and a looping execution is exactly what this reminds me of.

btw...I didnt connect the tach to the system, it's a blue wire that connected to the negative side of the coil. I noticed that from this wire to ground, i get 3-4 volts...is that right?

I dont want to connect a source to the green wire on the mallory(which is connected to the black - wire on the coil) and risk putting voltage into the unilite module through the backside.

Since voltage is a measure of potential, if i connect this to the negative side of the coil which is getting something like 4-6 volts off the back side of the ballast, this equates to 0 volts going to the coil, since the difference between the hot side +5 volts to the ground side +4 volts would pretty much negate out.

WTF did I get myself into? I'm beginning to hate this glorified lawnmower engine

what makes it worse is I just bought a MINI cooper with a stickshift

makes the 914 look like a rickshaw

Did you get a set of wiring diagrams with the Mallory? seems you are not hooking it up right.

Going by memory That don't seem right.
However I am running a CD box. There is a diagram in the instructions to do exactly what you are doing.

NOW PLEASE STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
You have successfully really dug a hole for yourself.
best to start over.

You absolutely are 180 out . it is totally possible to stick the ROTOR in backwards. I think you did this. Yea theoretically you can just move the plug wires.

Also it is possible that you have now dumped so much gas into the cylinders that the plugs are hopelessly fouled.

Just pull the plugs replace em, re-set the engine to TDC for #1 then re-install the distributor. You know #1 is not the front one on driver side right?

a blue wire huh? there are 3 wires coming out of the mallory. as you say you are using a ballast resistor let's refer to fig 1 in the installation instructions. a green, a red, and a brown come out of the dist.

the brown is the ground. you can attach it under one of the engine tin screws.

the red goes to the positive side of the coil with the balast resistor inline prior to the coil.

the green goes to the neg side of the coil.

other ?. did you dimple the engine tin so the distr body does not make contact? if not, the drive on the distr may (prob) will not fully seat into distr drive in the case. the rotor may or may not turn, and/or 'skip' time.

also, what type of sparkplug wires are you using?

i ruined an optical pickup and chased issues for days. i'll see if i can find the thread.



k

Email me your phone number and i will call you
productdevelopment@aircooledtechnology.com

Like I said, verifying spark is the first step, without spark timing doesn't matter.

the BLUE wire comes from the car, not the distributor.

I have the green from the unilite hooked to the black wire on the negative side of the coil

I have the red unilite wire hooked to +12v prior to the ballast

I have the brown unilite wire hooked under engine tin

I have the yellow coil + wire hooked to the other side of the ballast resistor.

Joe, the ROTOR is pointing to the front right of the car. I have the # 1 cylinder (back left) hooked to this point on the distributor cap.

If you look at the pelican site for setting timing, that's EXACTLY where my rotor is pointing.

my distributor cap looks like this


-2-----1

3-----4

as it sits in the car

I banged the hell out of the engine tin so the snaps on the cap clear it so i can rotate it.

the wires are 7mm bosch silicone

I have new plugs coming from NGK

I have a growing hatred for this old tub

Easy way to verify spark - pull a plug wire and hold it close to a ground source, then crank the engine.
You are right that the distributor can be mounted in the case in nearly any position. As long as the #1 wire connects to the terminal that the rotor points to when the crank is at #1TDC (on compression stroke) it will work.

Have you checked the plugs to see it they are getting wet with fuel?
Is is possible a lack of fuel is the culprit and not a lack of spark?

I have not pulled the plugs to see if they're getting wet. It would be a real clusterf*ck if the fuel delivery somehow failed while i was working nowhere near it or it's associated systems, but not out of line for this old beater. I think my new name for it is 'persnickety' If that carb has somehow failed...I'm going to smash it with a hammer, omfg, I would feel so much better.

I'll have to check the spark and the plugs after work. It sucks sitting here and fuming at this car though. Here i buy a 'fun' car and it's been nothing but a f'n chore.

I'm getting to the point where once this POS runs i'm gonna sell it. It just sucks having a car I cant drive because the engine overheats and pieces are missing off it.

I should have listened to my buddy and gotten a miata, yeah sure it has no character, but at least I can drive the goddamn thing

What year is your 914 and what injection system?

weber progressive iirc. he's had a # of 'issues'.

k

anyone want a 2000 lb paperweight? I'M SO F'N SICK OF THIS STUPID POS

i found out the 'blue' wire was randomly spliced into the black&purple wire. so i spliced that onto the green/neg side of the e-coil

i have NOTHING after the ballast aside from the coil

i have massive blue spark

the coil is getting like 3 volts after the ballast, but i'm getting massive blue/purple spark

if i dont plug in the mallory, i get 12v after the ballast.

methinks this goddamn lawnmower engine is all outta whack.

now i cant pull the f'n valve cover off the drivers side to see if this POS is in #1 TDC

wtf BFH do i need to pull this shittin cover off?
the plugs are wet with fuel
they are really black, what does that mean?
god i hate this car, i knew i shouldnt have bought another VW after the last one our family had, it seems they were making crap 30 years ago too

can you tell i'm pissed at this car?

take a shoprag, towel, what ever, loop it around the bail and give it a good hard tug. i've had to walk away from my car for the day, MORE THAN ONCE!, to regain my composure, let the blood pressure come down, and not throw something thru one of the garage windows. check the time/date stamps on that thread i pulled up. not hours, not a day, DAYS...

k

iirc the bosch wires don't fit the mallory cap (sp wire terminals) worth a shit. if they aren't fully seated in the cap you're going to 0 or an inconsistant spark. that's why i went with the Aurora wires from aircooled.net.

k

i have some clewett wires from pelican, they fit the cap nicely but fit the plugs like shit.

the bosch ones are seated very far into the cap and are very much on there.

is there any detriment to tuning to #3TDC? the markings are there AND correct for that

not to throw gas on smoldering embers, but I think going back to square one and starting is the only way you are going to figure this out.
Find absolute TDC with the valve cover off, set the dizzy and check for gas.
Spark
Fuel
Air

change only one thing at a time and it will happen. Check that your carb is in the center. Those progressives have a bad habit of moving to one side and screwing up the whole works!


GOOD LUCK!
dtd

It doesn't matter which cylinder you time as long as the marks are properly spaced on the fan.
Don't worry about the voltage if you have a good spark. Clean the plugs, verify your static timing and try again. There is probably nothing really wrong but you got the engine flooded earlier, while troubleshooting.

I just so want to say
Nanner Nanner We told you so.

VW did not make a POS. but 30+ years of shade tree tinkerers made it a POS.

Your job if you choose to accept it is to fix it right.

or I'll come over there with my trailer and take it off your hands. I can be there in 8 hours tops.

so your plug wires are almost great. they were sort of exspensive too. really man, start at the beginning, even tho you may not need to. if you screw up the optical unit in the mallory it'll be around 5 jeffersons.

k

i'm convinced the wiring is fine, it's throwing spark precisely when it should, as much as it should, it's just the engine underneath is out of time

YAY YAY YAY!!!!!

IT WORKS
IT WORKS
IT WORKS

Houston, uhhh, we dont have a problem..

Thank you guys for all your help!

It turns out the DAPO is a bit smarter than the current owner, my dumb ass. I should have used an inspection mirror to find the tdc scribe mark on the impeller...

anyway, thanks to those that told me to pull off the valve covers, you guys had the right advice.

I had the wiring right, so ha, the mechanics were all off. i was all discombobulated, i was off by 270 degrees,

anyway, i let that biotch idle and get warmed up and then found the timing marks, which were also correct, and then timed to EXACTLY that.

then i tightened it all up and.....

OMFG

Jake, you're the man for selling this mallory, it pulls LIKE A MULE!!!

and the temps stay at or below 350 F with HARD throttle pressure and lots of stop & go

the mid-throttle response is f'n incredible, no more stumbling in corners, and GOBS of power. who the hell knew this car could be so fast?? I didnt!!!

Now to get the engine tin in there and get the header on.

my hat's off to you Jake, thanks for your phone call for explaining how the valves work in relation to the piston, you rock

WORD UP!!!

You don't have to pull the valve covers to check.

Pry the rear sheetmetal back, look for your TDC stamping/line on the flywheel. It's either TDC 1 or TDC 3. Line that up with the case centerline from the top. Re-time your distributor. You may be 180º off. Sure you're getting spark, but at the right time? The marks on the fan might be wrong (especially if they've been "measured" and re-marked a few times), but the big line on the flywheel can't be wrong (unless it's not there).

another satisfied customer! happy motorvating.

k

amazing when you find the factory marks


good deal. dont get frustrated... and DO NOT TRUST PO WORK!

Purple,

Good job! Sweet when these things run right. I had the same problem on my 74. Couldn't find the timing marks. Took about 2 hours to find the timing marks on the fan.

Are you still running that center carb? If you are and you think this thing pulls now, you won't stop grinning with a nice set of dual Webers or Dells.

Spoke

I know spoke, i'm practically salivating that this pinto carb makes the car pull like this


i'm changing the name of the thread...

jake,

if the timing before the mallory was like this


_____/\
------|

and is now like this
_____/\
--------|
(read that as the full advance mark is now centered)

does that mean my advance wasnt high enough before?

what does this mean for my engine temps, in your experience

ALLRIGHT!!

These cars are actually drivable now that you have a little torque. Coming out of a corner used to be frustraiting, but since I got Malloried, it is fun! I can actually provoke spin.

And people say our parts are expensive! Find that friggin service anywhere else, I DARE YA!!

Glad you got it squared away. I could tell on the phone that you were very confused and had many of the sequences of the engine out of whack. My best recommendation for you is to buy the John Muir "Complete idiot" manual and read it cover to cover. I have the original of this book that was written in the early 70s and it was the biggest help I ever had as a kid learning how an engine functioned and the location of components and what they did. The text and illustrations are great for the beginner.

See, what you have done is what one HAS TO DO to ever build the confidence for bigger, better and fsater projects down the road- nothing wrong with a bit of a challenging mechanical experience, they build character.

It's almost like the poster I saw that made me want to join the Marines that said " We don't guarantee you anything but a challenge".

A lot of that confusion came from the fact that I was only used to dealing with 2 stroke 1 cylinder nitromethane RC engines with no valves, glow plugs, and the fuel came in through the crankshaft!

I made the mistake of thinking leaving the plug in #1 was good enough. What turned out to be the best thing was taking off the valve cover, observing #1 intake valve open and then close, then i'd take some flexible wire loom and put it down into the spark plug hole, then rotate the wheel backwards and see the tubing get moved around by the piston and then see the flywheel scribe mark come up at the back behind the engine tin, then the scribe on the impeller using an inspection mirror.

Thanks to you too Joe, I look up to you for having autox vids on youtube. I show those to people all the time.
Keep your trailer parked, I now no longer have a paperweight, and yes, you told me so.

Thanks jake for explaining which valve does what. Now my question is this:

I got a set of feeler gauges with my new plugs and they were way better for gapping the plugs than those little ring things. Since I have hydraulic lifters, how do I adjust the valves? What clearances am I looking for in there?

Oh, another nice silver lining, the pushrod tube retaining clip is in there for the drivers side, how cool is that eh?

It's funny how one project begets another... I was under the car pulling the valve cover bail with a towel, thanks rhody for that advice, it worked great!

I bumped up against the shifter rod and OMG that thing is sooo loose!

The bushing that holds the rod as it goes to the console moves around in the hole, the cup on the end of the ball is all over the place. I'm amazed I can shift this car at all the way this stuff is loose.

I need to get that rubber boot that goes onto the rod in front of the shifter cover, which isnt on the car and never came with it.

Amazing this car drives at all. I should make a list of all the serious driveability issues i've fixed on this little thing. So, off to JWest to get the little rubber boot thingy

Bad day?



I got one in 75, great book. Lots of info and introduced me to the horizontally opposed engine.

Hang in there.

If you would of done one of the first things everyone told you, you wouln't of got so frustrated. I knew from the first page you were on the exhaust stroke. I think there is a couple other threads that have resulted in the exact same problem.

Just quit hating your car because someone mistreated it. The car is the real victom in this story....

Read the whole thread bub

I read both threads and know of your high head temps...



My post is still true IMHO. You knew you had spark and gas and were still getting frustrated even know you knew it had to be timing??