So i took my t-stat out and put 3 1/8" holes in it. Anything i can/should chech while i'm in there?

Use a good Fel-Pro gasket (blue one that can be reused over and over).

Most of the time.. we gut a stock T-stat. You just need some kind of restriction to slow the water down in the radiator. If it moves too fast.. it doesnt get cooled down properly. Each radiator setup out there may require more or less restriction depending on what you used for a radiator and lines. The Renegade badass setup seams to only need the small holes in the t-stat.


B

But they still use a t-stat.

I've been having cooling issues (yea I know buy the renegede system, but being a college studenti can't), I will overheat anywhere, in town on the freeway etc. But if i'm on the freeway and she starts to get hot and i let the car coast then after a little coasting i can let the clutch bac out and continue driving and the temp will jump back down to 180-190 and then go up again. It and i keep doing this over and over. So this i can do this anytime as long as i'm moving, but when i was comming home from school on I-5 I was doing over 80 and was able to keep the temp at 210 along with giving a Audi TT a run for it's money. BTW I also have a stock transmission $k rpm about 80.

Paul Have you tried the thermostat that John Thomas refered to from Summit racing?? Seems like that is what helped to cool him down, as well as the 3/8" holes.
CCLIN914-8

Paul,

I saw your similar post over on porchev. It's clear here your fighting a cooling issue. What is your temperature at highway speed? How high does it get (max.)?

What happens at extended idle?

Are you using a expansion tank? Where is it mounted? Does the coolant in expansion tank always come back to same level after car is completely cooled off (over night)? If not, you've got some sort of leak (internal or external) that could lead to high operating temp.

RH recommends a 16lb. radiator cap.

Do you know how to burp system?

Who's water pump are you using? Since you didn't have bleed holes in your thermostat, there is a chance you damaged impeller if rpm exceeded 2-3000 before t/s opened.

Have you checked all hoses to ensure no kinks exist in system?

I saw pics of radiator on your website. Do you have any others of engine bay and or hose routing?

John

I do have that t-stat Mr gasket I belive. FYI On the pors-chev list it says 1/8" holes.

Correct you are.
CCLIN914-8

My gauge shows above 260 and this is taken from the side of the block b/c the relay that turns on my fans is connected the the intake.



Get's hot



My expantion tank is mounted in the rear trunk. It seems to work properly and levels seem to be normal and consistant.



That's what I got.



I hope so, no one ever gave me instructions and i think i have tried most posibilities. I even went as far as widdleing down a peice of hose so it fit's inside the t-stat opening and connected the other end to the bottom of a bucket. Then i ran the car and water worked it's way into the bucket and then a whole bunch of water entered the bucked and then vacated. So the water cycled up and down every 3 or 4 seconds. This is also something i find odd.



Interesting because my first one from Renegade hit the fan (one of the impeller blades came off so I went to my FLAPS and they found me a replacement out of steel and not aluminum. The pump is a suspect being that the shaft that connects the pully and the impeller might be slipping.



The hose is either the green stripe hose that renegade recomends or preformed sections to make curves. I can't find any kinks.



That's my old radiator and I haven't had a chance to take new ones, But it's a big aluminum radiaor w/ 2 12" fans that put out 1050 cfm each. Hose routing is underneath the car.

When to temp gauge gets up to 260 does the cap release?

Are you loosing coolant?

Or is the gauge just showing high temps?

Iron block motors with iron heads really generate more heat than ally motors. Specially when you shut them off and they go into the heat soak mod.

Get one of those gun type pyrometers and check to see the gauge is accurate. When the high temps start showing you will be able to take a reading at the front radiator inlet side and the outlet side, then the return at the block. This will tell you if you have a flow problem.

I'm not sure if you know what the function of the holes in the t-stat are for. I was always told the holes would allow trapped air to purge past the t-stat. If the system is air bound it will cause the over heating problems to persist.

Expansion tanks should be mounted higher than the water jacket if possible not lower like in the rear trunk.

blown head gasket???

Paul, I have a snap-on rad/coolant pressure tester if you need to borrow one, let me know and i can put it in the mail for you

(QUOTE) My gauge shows above 260 and this is taken from the side of the block b/c the relay that turns on my fans is connected the the intake.

260 is too damn hot! Is this the way it has always run or a recent problem?

[QUOTE]What happens at extended idle?

[/QUOTE]Get's hot

So you have high operating temp. at idle as well as at highway speed? Just so we are clear on what you call hot........do you see 260F in both situations? If you start car and just let idle, will it reach same high temp. as while on highway?

[QUOTE]Are you using a expansion tank? Where is it mounted? Does the coolant in expansion tank always come back to same level after car is completely cooled off (over night)? If not, you've got some sort of leak (internal or external) that could lead to high operating temp.

(QUOTE) My expantion tank is mounted in the rear trunk. It seems to work properly and levels seem to be normal and consistant.

I would move expansion tank to engine bay and mount as high as possible. This will help eliminate air entering system during cool down. The long length of hose to rear trunk and its low mounting position is not the desired setup.


[QUOTE]Do you know how to burp system?

[/QUOTE] I hope so, no one ever gave me instructions and i think i have tried most posibilities. I even went as far as widdleing down a peice of hose so it fit's inside the t-stat opening and connected the other end to the bottom of a bucket. Then i ran the car and water worked it's way into the bucket and then a whole bunch of water entered the bucked and then vacated. So the water cycled up and down every 3 or 4 seconds. This is also something i find odd.

This is not the proper way to purge air from cooling system and may be the root cause of your high operating temps. This is the procedure:

1. Fill system from high point in engine bay. Leave radiator cap off overnight and let excess air excape. Top off system after allowing to sit overnight. Hopefully you have a radiator cap and fill point in engine bay mounted higher than intake manifold.

2. Start engine with radiator cap (in engine bay) removed. Watch water level at this location and how it flows now that you have bleed holes in t/s. You will see air bubbles work their way out of system at this point while engine is running. This will take about 5 minutes as engine gets up to temperature. Have radiator cap handy since water in system will expand as it warms up. Install cap with engine running as water level starts to escape at this point. DO NOT turn engine off at this point of procedure.

3. Take car out for a drive and get up to opeating temp. Turn car off. When fans are about to turn off (about 170F), open petcock at top of RADIATOR to remove air. You will see a mixture of water and air escape. When you get a solid stream of water, shut off petcock.

4. Do this a couple of times and you should be ready to hit the road.


[QUOTE]Who's water pump are you using? Since you didn't have bleed holes in your thermostat, there is a chance you damaged impeller if rpm exceeded 2-3000 before t/s opened.

(QUOTE) Interesting because my first one from Renegade hit the fan (one of the impeller blades came off so I went to my FLAPS and they found me a replacement out of steel and not aluminum. The pump is a suspect being that the shaft that connects the pully and the impeller might be slipping.

Hmmmmm.......the first damaged impeller was most likely caused by not having bleed holes in thermostat and running engine above 2-3000 rmp before t/s opened. Since you just drilled holes in your t/s, you may have performed the same damage again to new impeller. Unless you measured your old impeller with the new one, I would question if the clearances (impeller to water pump housing) are the same. If they are not, the water pump will not work as designed. Go after this last since it is the hardest of what I'm asking you to do.

[QUOTE]Have you checked all hoses to ensure no kinks exist in system?

[/QUOTE]The hose is either the green stripe hose that renegade recomends or preformed sections to make curves. I can't find any kinks.

The tightest turns in system are the hardest to see. Double check the hoses running from water pump to front of engine block. This is where you can run into trouble due to lack of visability in addition to tight fit at bulkhead. Run you hands along hoses going to front of block or check from underneath car to ensure no kinks are present. This one bit me once.

I'd still like to see recent pics of your installation as it would be more benefical than a brief description.

Other:

1. Have you altered the timing lately?

2. Changed air/fuel ratio? Both can effect cooling temperature.

3. Your method of measuring water temperature is not correct. Since water flows from water pump to block, then to heads and then intake, the desired probe location would be intake. Your 260F reading might be higher than what your seeing now.

4. What are you using to measure temperature? I've seen false readings caused by $10 gauges. Does your engine have that "I'm hot" smell after a highway run? If you are really running 260F, you should be able to smell it and even hear some weird sounds when engine is shutdown.

John

Sorry for the mess guys........this was my first attempt at using the "quote" thingy. Looks like I f_cked that all up.

John

You can go back and edit out what you don't want.

John You got your point across. Good job.
CCLIN914-8

Not loosing coolant that as far as I can tell. No white smoke out the tailpipe nor have there ever been coolant drippings under the car. And the level in the expantion tank returns to a constant level.



Guess it's time to buy one.



I'll put the car back together tomorrow and see if the holes did anything for me.



The expantion tank is right up against the engine/trunk wall and wouldn't get much higher if it were in the engine compartment. I would say that the bottom of the tank is at about the same level as the bottom of the intake.

That would be very helpfull. I'm only about 40 min. from antioch so would be willing to pick it up. e-mail me when a good time and day would be smrz914@hotmail.com

Paul,

It appears you have not been using the right procedure to bleed air from system. Armed with your new thermostat and knowing how to bleed system, you may have found your problem.

The extended distance expansion tank is located from fill point can cause air to enter system. If you used a clear hose to run from fill point to expansion tank, you'd see the air pockets that can form in hose using your method.

See attached:

John

adf

I doubt your water pump impeller is slipping on shaft. My installed impeller as well as my spare are both made of steel. No aluminum used on impeller..........only water pump housing is aluminum.

John

let's try that again

[QUOTE]260 is too damn hot! Is this the way it has always run or a recent problem? [/QUOTE]

It's never been that high untill recently. I was always able to keep some controle over it. I was never happy with it's function but it was at least drivable before.

[QUOTE]So you have high operating temp. at idle as well as at highway speed? Just so we are clear on what you call hot........do you see 260F in both situations? If you start car and just let idle, will it reach same high temp. as while on highway?[/QUOTE]

It always gets really hot, unless I have forward motion and i let it idle, i.e. car is HOT and i'm on the freeway and I coast for a little while and then get back on the gas the temp will shoot down to 180-190 and then start climbing again.

[QUOTE]I would move expansion tank to engine bay and mount as high as possible. This will help eliminate air entering system during cool down. The long length of hose to rear trunk and its low mounting position is not the desired setup.[/QUOTE]

The expantion tank is right up against the engine/trunk wall and wouldn't get much higher if it were in the engine compartment. I would say that the bottom of the tank is at about the same level as the bottom of the intake.

I don't think I have any more wall space for it in the engine bay.

[QUOTE]This is not the proper way to purge air from cooling system and may be the root cause of your high operating temps.[/QUOTE]

I will try the procedure when I put the car back together tomorrow.

[QUOTE]Who's water pump are you using? Since you didn't have bleed holes in your thermostat, there is a chance you damaged impeller if rpm exceeded 2-3000 before t/s opened.

(QUOTE) Interesting because my first one from Renegade hit the fan (one of the impeller blades came off so I went to my FLAPS and they found me a replacement out of steel and not aluminum. The pump is a suspect being that the shaft that connects the pully and the impeller might be slipping.

[QUOTE]Hmmmmm.......the first damaged impeller was most likely caused by not having bleed holes in thermostat and running engine above 2-3000 rmp before t/s opened. Since you just drilled holes in your t/s, you may have performed the same damage again to new impeller. Unless you measured your old impeller with the new one, I would question if the clearances (impeller to water pump housing) are the same. If they are not, the water pump will not work as designed. Go after this last since it is the hardest of what I'm asking you to do.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts as well. and i'll check all the hoses tomorrow before I put the t/s housing back in b/c it takes up lots of room.

[QUOTE]I'd still like to see recent pics of your installation as it would be more benefical than a brief description.[/QUOTE]

I need to get a hold of camera and a faster internet connection I only have 56k at my moms place. I'll keep you posted.

Other:

[QUOTE]1. Have you altered the timing lately? [/QUOTE]

No

[QUOTE]2. Changed air/fuel ratio? Both can effect cooling temperature.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I leaned it out one step to what the carb came as (edelbrock 600) I originally riched it out b/c it had no top end, but my actual problem was the the butterflies were not opening all the way. Different story.

[QUOTE]3. Your method of measuring water temperature is not correct. Since water flows from water pump to block, then to heads and then intake, the desired probe location would be intake. Your 260F reading might be higher than what your seeing now.[/QUOTE]

I know it's a future change as soon as I find a good way of measuring the temp at the radiator.

[QUOTE]4. What are you using to measure temperature? I've seen false readings caused by $10 gauges. Does your engine have that \"I'm hot\" smell after a highway run? If you are really running 260F, you should be able to smell it and even hear some weird sounds when engine is shutdown. [/QUOTE]

I can imagine the smell but it's not there or i'm use to it. I'll have to check the gauge accuracy. It's a VDO guage and wasn't cheep.

Did i use to many quotes? quotes are not coming up.

One way to make sure all the air is out of the system is to raise the front up 18 inches then bleed the system. steve

ok i'm moving the expantion tank and getting some clear hose. Thanks. Your car looks great. I'm jelous.

Paul,

Since your car ran fine until recently, I would reverse the only thing you changed (richen carb back up) and bleed the system as described.

Moving expansion tank might not even be required right away. Maybe over time its current location is allowing a small about of air into system but your symptoms seem to be caused by improper air purging from the start.

Something else to try on the cheap would be to replace your radiator cap with a new one. Scott at RH warned me to stay away from the ones with spring loaded relief handle.

John

John i've had 3 radiator caps in the car all are the same. When i get the system bled then i'll be sure to put a cap that doesn't have a lever. I'm just usin the lever to bleed the system.

Keep us up to date Paul. I was away from the computer for several days and would like to hear what you found.

Johns explanation of the bleeding procedure was ABOVE anything else I have read/seen on the web. I do it almost exactly like he says.


B

So I put the car back together and bled it without success. Only the first bleeding i did got a little air out, a cubic centemeters worth at most. I even put the car up on a grade so that the front end would be highter. I checked all the hoses and there were no kinks.

So what is my next attack? I thing I should presure check the system. It will at least tell me if there is a leak of some sort that I cant see.

Yes. Get the pressure checker from Mueller. Do you have a bleeder installed near/at the radiator ??


B

Mueller i'm sending an e-mail...

Brad I have the petcock on the radiator, if that is waht you are implying. What do I need it for? I need to get a cable for my camera and then i\I can take some pics.

John pointed out that you need to get *some* heat in the system and bleed it from the petcock valve. Is the valve mounted high on the radiator ?


B

Paul,

I take it you test drove the car and still had the exact same symptoms?

You won't get all the air out the first time. I assume you followed the procedure I spelled out. I suggest doing the whole bleeding procedure one more time before moving on to something else.

Did you see the bubbles completely go away at your fill point while engine was warming up? If you lower the level at that point about 1" and increase idle to about 1200-1500 or so, you will be able to run engine while water is expanding. If air bubbles you present then, I'd suspect a blown head gasket. You could also pull your plugs.........if a cylinder is pumping water, you'll see a rusty color on plug.

Did you richen your carb back to where it was prior to overheating?

On the subject of pressure testing mentioned by Brad, I've had good and bad experiences with the testers. I've had a nick on the mounting surface where the cap goes give false indication of a leak as well as leaking gasket on the tester.

What about having a chemical analisis performed on your coolant. I've heard these are available over the shelf or you could have a shop do it for you. This will tell you if exhaust gases are entering the coolant system.

Have you checked your dip stick for signs of water in oil?

How old was that used radiator you installed? It could have pluggage.

I would not put all my faith in the one gage your using to measure by..........install a second gage on intake.

John

Hum.. he is measuring the water temp at its hottest point (top of the cylinder jacket..in the head)

Is this a electrical gauge or mechanical ?


B

It's at the top, maybe 1/4" from the top edge.

I did do it several times.



I didn't get any bubbles at the fill point for any of the times I bled the system.



I have a new radiator. Speeking of this, when i rebuilt the motor there was some build up of "stuff" inside the engine and i cleaned it as best i could.

I did have problems even with the original settings on the carb.

I'll go through your list John and report what I find.

I have to move the temp gauge pickup to the tip of the intake. It's an electric gauge.

Another thing is that if i remove an inch of water the car will get up to 180 before it overflows. I'll try though.

Brad............I understood that his temp. probe was installed in engine block.

Paul.........after running your car, you need to bleed air from petcock at top of radiator and not at fill point in engine bay. (it's not clear where your bleeding air to me at this point) Open until you get a steady stream of water. It may work either way but this is the method used by RH.

Since you didn't have your block dipped/boiled, the crud may have worked loose and ended up in radiator. There are a couple of radiator flush products that may help vs. taking radiator to a shop for rodding.

Just for comparison, I've been running my car for the past several days. Temperature here in Ga. is about 55-60F. My engine temp. runs 170-180F (both gages!) and my driving is a mixture of stop and go as well as 100+ mph freeway blasts. I have a indicator light that lets me know when fans are on and they only turned on 2 or 3 times per day.

John

I use to use a combination of bleeding from the petcock and the fill point. I cant get more air out. I'll try again tomorrow. The most recent ones i just bleed from the radiator as per the instructions.

The weather here is a little colder i think. Not by much though. not that it matters since it doesn't matter what the outside temp is, my car doesn't like it.

The radiator is new and it does get hot. Maybe there is something that is in my car that i'm not noticing? I don't know.

Tomorrow is another day.

Depending on what fans you have mounted.. they can actually slow the air down flowing thru the radiator while your moving. Renegade has Ron Davis mount the fans about 2 inches off the actual finned area of the radiator.

Will it sit an idle and not get hot ?? What temp do you have the fans set to turn on ??


B

It get's hot standing still as well. Doesn't matter if i am moving. I'm having the fans come on when the radiator is hot. It's an adjustable relay for the fans.

Paul,

As a reference, my fans turn on at 179.6F and off at 170F, as measured from a probe in radiator.

Engine temperature when this occurs (as measured from a probe in intake), fans come on a little over 180F and off a little under 180F.

You might have your fans coming on a little too late and suffering from a snowball effect where your system can never catch up. FYI, my fans don't kick in unless at idle or in bumper to bumper traffic.......never while car is continuously moving at any speed above about 30 mph.

I've never seen high temps. (260F) at idle. This is where your making the least amount of heat in engine. Allow the fans to run manually at idle (prior to reaching 160F or so) and see what happens.

What size is hole in front of radiator/bumper? How is air escaping front hood area? Is outlet opening(s) twice the size of inlet?

John

Oh it doesn't matter when the fans turn on it still get's hot. I have a pretty big opening in the front of my car. and openings in the hood and the fenders. The hood I opened as an attempt to cool better but it did nothing. The hood was crap anyway, 2 front end collisions. Anyway the water going back to the engine is definitly cooler then what is coming in.

IT's raining so I can't do any work, rats.

I checked the spark plugs and they look really good. The oil looks fine, no signs of water.



no bubbles if i increase the idle. The guy at the parts store suggested that i ring the car for about 15 sec. and see if there is any buildup of presure for the cylinders. That turned out negative.

No word from Meuller.

Time to try another gage.

what is the guage going to do? The car is boiling over. It is hot. It's not the guage that is overheating it.

Paul,

where are you located ?? I need to deliver a tranny near Sac this week. I would rather see this in person and try to help you out.


B

Paul,

I didn't know you were boiling over.........never heard that in your previous posts and thought your gage was suspect. Take Brad up on his offer to help in person. The brief/vague descriptions you've described are somewhat difficult to use in diagnosing problem.

Good luck,

John

brad- I'm in lafayette, east bay, close to walnut creek and pleasand hill. My car is outside and i have no garage so i only work on it when it's not raining. I'll send you a note with address and phone# and i'm around all the time just let me know when you have time. I appriciate the offer.

john- It's hard to include everything sonce there are so many variables. I thought i mentioned it boiling over but who knows.