was considering a 2.7-ish engine for a shell that I have. After reviewing what is necessary, I am starting to think that a big four is sufficient.

what is the normal power output for a 2056, and can that setup run on FI?

looking for something with a bit more power than what we have. Currently have a spare 2.0 out of a '75/'76 sitting in the garage...

thanks! -JON

Oh crap, here we go again......


My vote is still big four.

Indeed. I think we've been on this ride before.

A big four can most certainly be sufficient.

Yes, of course you can run FI. There are FI solutions for anything. If you mean STOCK FI, then a nice Web cam upgrade will make the most of it. If you want more than 125HP in a four then you better plan on an updated FI system like SDS to go with a well-built 2056. Hmm... 2270 would be nice.

What's your budget?

I have been debating the exact same thing. Based on power, weight and cost I am leaning towards a big 4. Here is what I have been tossing around:

2.4 or a 2.7 will have lots of miles on it and your looking in the neighborhood of 3000-3500 for a half way descent one.

Oil tank if you go with a tank like the one from Patrick motorsports your looking @ 500 for a front tank or 1000 for one that bolts into a stock six location.

mounts, exhaust, etc... so before you consider any kind of refresh of the 6 your already out like 6K ish...

I was adding up what I could build a wicked dry sump type IV and if I do the work myself I think I could put together a ~200 Hp (@ the crank) engine for around 4500 - 5K and have a brand new engine ready to rock and roll.

If you look at rebuilding a porsche 6 you can go north of 10K if you buy new pistons and cylinders(2500), have the crank done at ernesto's (500), Case done at ollies (1K), ARP rod bolts (300) or carillo rods 2700... then head work the sky can be the limit... My friend has been putting together an RS spec 2.7 and he has a spread sheet of all of the costs. he is @ 10.2K and he wil be putting it together himself. I think the 10.2 included a set of webbers with rebuild kits and pmo intakes too though.

I know that was kind of all over the place with this but I am pretty sure you see where I am going with it. I think 5K could build you a wicked type IV or 6500 you could have a tired old six that will probably need to be rebuilt in a matter of a few years and not really a track worthy engine. Plus the six is about 200 pounds heavier if I remember correctly.

If you're just building a street car a 2056 with stock FI is an awesome choice. You'll easily be able to make 110 HP or more. Torque jumps up as well. More than enough power and its very straight forward rebuild and install.

If your're good at spotting deals and aquiring used parts a six can be a very cost effective way to add power. But it sounds like a little more than you need.

If you're not worried about keeping car aircooled Subi is a great choice.

And theres always Jakes engines....

and if I didnt want it to be so "wicked" ... what can it cost to build a 110-ish hp motor? -JON

Talk to Dan T. He built a very nice little 2056. I have been very impressed with the motor he built.

Jon,

If you use the Djet that you got with that engine, you can do it for around $3K, the biggest variable being the headwork. Figure around 1500 for parts, 1500 for headwork. You will also need new exhaust, the 75/76 stuff you got from me, you won't want to use it (another $400 if you can find good stock 2.0 exhaust bits ~600 assuming used SSIs and newish bursch, ~750 for Eurorace header, ~1200 for Tangerine header).

If you go with carbs you can get more power, but it will cost more too. Figure around $4000 unless you can get a really good deal on some carbs/intakes/manifolds. Again, you will want a better exhaust.

If you go with programmable EFI, you can get even more power and efficiany out of the motor, but the cost goes up to around $5000+ now (plus exhaust).

This is all getting parts piecemeal. Expect kits to be more expensive.

Zach

I built a 2056 using 96mm KB aluminum pistons, and a 9550 cam from Jake.
all my other parts were machined locally and used. Had my stock Mahle 2.0L cylinders punched out to 96mm. Heads rebuilt with SS valves, HD valve springs, new guides and seats. Case was align bored, crank was polished and specd, all the usual stuff. Total cost of rebuild was just around $2K.
then I had all the engine tin bead blasted and repainted.
here are a few shots of what I got.
And yes I am running stock D-jet with great results....check the standings for 914cup at the top of the page.

and here is what it looked like before going back into the car

and finally in the car

I can attest to the fact Dan's car is very fast. Most of the 2056 rebuilds I have heard about range in the $2000 to $3000 range if you do the work yourself.

Its really hard to go wrong with this motor config. I'm suprised more dont settle on this motor. Much less trouble than big T4 or a six with nearly the same fun factor and 25% the cost of the more expensive options.

that is exactly the reason why I chose this route.
cost was acceptable, can reuse stock injection.
I have as much or more fun than lots of other folks with much more expensive and larger engine combinations.
I have been the 2.7L(RS spec) route before. Don't get me wrong. That was a fun motor/chassis combination but the costs involved in doing it properly are not for the faint of heart.
And this was in a 914-6 chassis to start with.

If I were to do another type 4 motor (which I might) I would go to the 2270. More money and unable to use stock injection...but lots more HP....
well my car is a 99% track/AX car after all.

Nathans 2056 was ripping fast, but he went with a little more wild setup. Having ridden in his car it was every bit as fast as my old 2.4 911 E spec powered car.

The 2056 is a potent combo, not as torque filled as the 2270 but easier to make a revver from.

Today one doesn't have to make a 4 "Big" to get insane power, hell a 2270 is only a 10% displacement increase to more than double the stock 2.0 power with equal reliability and longevity as well as runing temps.

I continually preach to enthusiasts not to make the /4 big, keep it at 2316cc or smaller and make the engine efficient. Today our most powerful combinations are based on the 2056,2270 and 2316 platforms.

As we work to get volume up on our product line prices should drop again the beginning of the year on everything except cylinder heads, which will see approximately a 10% cost increase.Our LE Heads are a huge part of how our engines function as efficiently as they dobut also a great factor in the cost of the performance.

In early 08 I plan on doing some further development on an optimized D jet set up much like Dan's engine. With all bolt on parts that will include a Mallory Unilite, air filter housing manipulation and other bolt on tricks that can be purchased in stages and benefit any D jet 914 owner.

Now that more and more people are going the TIV route we can offer more developments at higher volumes at a reduced cost. Volume really is the key.

FYI_ I have an article to release in a few weeks titled "Creating the 914S engine " wich outlines basically what dan and many others have done based on my parts and thoughts. It'll be available on my forums under Jake's technical articles.

Jake, if you need a real world test mule, mine is available for those new bolt on parts.

very happy with my Raby cam and purchased pistons...not to mention several phone conversations about the 2056 combination.

thanks for your input and support to all of us Jake.

Cool! I'm looking forward to seeing more on this! Where will you be triggering the FI from?

No problem Dan.. Glad you are happy.

What I plan on doing is taking a 50,000 mile good running core stock 2.0 and doing a mega update on it going through the stock upgrades and testing for power and temperature differences in the lab, then break it down and pretend that I am an enthusiast tasked with the same challenge that you had.
I'll then put it all back together with the modified combo as a 2056 and re-test it the same way.

Then I'll sell it to someone that is willing to take it off my hands and drop it into their car.

I have a Raby 2056 in my 912E and it is great. I built it with all Jake's parts. It has 40MM Webers with 34MM venturis and a Mallory. About 9.5 :1 with Len Hoffman heads. Acturally 1.8 heads welded up and redrilled for 2.0 plug location. I think Len used stock sized 2.0 valves. It dynos out just like Jake says on his website. I think he says 120HP , Mine is 108 at the rear wheels and I now have the Mallory. The Torque is the thing! If I remember correctly, at the rear wheels it has over 120 FT LB from 2500 to 4800 RPM. It is also ballanced and has a slightly lighter flywheel. I recommend the 2056 to anyone.

Going the Four route will be quite a bit simpler. No need to figure out an engine mounting scheme, no need to worry about an oil tank or specialized lines, and so on and so on. More or less, just bolt it up and go! If you go with carbs, you'll need to work out those issues, but there would likely be similar issues with any fuel system that would feed a Six anyway.

The six is, well, it's a Six! The sound is amazing, the engines are capable of making good power under absurd conditions (being beat upon mercilessly 24 hours a day, running at WOT near redline for 24 hours without any real breaks!) and there are hundreds of companies out there that have a pretty good idea how to deal with them and make them go fast. It will likely be more expensive, even with a "small" Six, and there are more issues you will have to deal with. Plus it's about the only way you can really get 300 HP with a nice torque curve lasting 200K miles or so. But that takes even MO money...

--DD

I'm sure there will be no shortage of people willing to volounteer for this one!

Jake, one day I'm hoping to have one of your engines in my car, it's just a matter of time and $ to do it properly.
Seems like things have changed quite a bit from when you first broke the news of your 5k turnkey engine combo. I remember sales being a little slow at first from the 914 crowd, but it looks like that's changed for the better. I for one am glad to see it because it means you'll keep offering the engine combos and improving upon them. They'll be that much better when I am finally in a position to take advantage of your research.

I have not really investigated the less radical route. My intention is to build a purpose built race engine. I have been debating back and forth with a friend of mine that is a 17 year veteran 356 racer on what route to go. He is pumping out an almost unbelievable 172 hp out of his 1.7 liter 356 engine.

I think the plans for my engine are probably not relevant to what you are looking for after rereading this post. I will be running close to 13:1 compression, a very lumpy cam and a set of either raby heads or possibly stock heads taken to a local tuner by the name of stemson. I guess he builds all of the heads for Jerry Woods and has done the race heads for Andial but I am thinking they will fall into the OH SH*T price range so the raby heads are probably for me.

110 - 120 hp should be easy to reach in the 2-3K price range.

The Stinson heads are probably cheaper than ours and based on back to back comparisons are less effective both on the flow bench and the dyno.

As for 356 power, well I have build a 167HP PUMP GAS 356 engine, making power with those engines is VERY SIMPLE compared to the Type 4 platform. As we speak I am building a twin plugged 1500cc engine for Land Speed racing based on the 356 platform- it'll make over 190 HP and spin 10,000 RPM. The 356 engine and the type 4 share NONE of the same characteristics except the firing order, the biggest mistake that can be made is manipulating the TIV with similar mind set to that of another engine- especially the 356 platform.

You more than likely don't need 13:1 to make the most effective power for your application and with camshafts bigger is NOT better, especially if you experience port stall due to the cam choice. With the TIV bigger is usually LESS EFFECTIVE, my development and back to back comparisons have proven this time and time again.

Heads, cam induction and exhaust are all dependant upon each other and you can't get an optimized engine by dealing with people who haven't developed the entire engine or do not offer an optimized combination proven to work. It takes more than just a pair of heads, more than just some compression and more than a huge cam to make usable, efficient power.

It's all in the combo.

For educational purposes is there any photos of the differances between the 356 motor and the type 4.

Nothing is the same between the two engines, they only share ONE part.

For educational purposes, if you want to see pics of the inside of my 1883cc 356/912 engine that Jake built for me, they are on my site:

http://lnengineering.com/raby912/