In the coming weeks, 914World will have honored our member's wishes to fulfill the advertisement agreement for vendors.

As that term is about to expire, we need to make a decision about renewing the ads.

Please vote to:

• [ ] continue running ads for advertisers (or)
• [ ] conclude our banner ad program.

If the members decide that running (914 related only) ads is in the best interest of our community, all advertising revenue will be donated to "Toys for Tots".

Neither 914World.com nor the Admins will handle any of the funds. Advertisers will send the funds directly to "Toys for Tots". Once "Toys for Tots" confirms the donation, we will run the ad.

The integrity and vendor-neutrality of 914world.com is very important to us. Regardless of the outcome of this poll, 914World.com will continue to be a vendor neutral site and will not endorse any particular retailer or service provider.

My caviat: I am speaking as a member only.

I have thought for some time about this issue. I recognize there are benefits to the idea. However, I have several concerns about continuing the banner ads and the future of 914world.

a. Neutrality. We lived for many years, quite happily, without banner advertising. Perception becomes reality. Regardless of what we (the community) claim in Mission Statements, etc, newcomers aways associate banner advertising as vendors who support and are endorsed by an organization.
b. Brand dilution. Of the current 914 forums, all of them (except Roadglue) use banner advertising. Does our 914world community wish to be and remain the unique group that we always have been. With so many splintered forums, it is important to be have a strong identity. Banner advertisements make 914world into just another one out there.
c. Selection of banner advertisers. Do we let anyone 914-related advertise? Even Str0mberg? What about Motor-Meister? Where do we draw the line and who draws it?
d. Other tools available. Small vendors can post in the vendor area. We can set up a big-business forum, if larger companies want a special presence. We don't need banner ads to bring product information to the community.

All these things said, it should be noted that many of the Admin team have a vested interest in continuing banner advertisements - as they will benefit.

There are other methods for fundraising for Toys for Tots - a noble goal. However, I do not believe that banner advertising is the best option available.

Kind regards,
Rusty

I had thought the banners were bad. However the recent discussion about trunk shocks and the fact that no one knew EvilEd even made them has made me wonder if the banners could be useful to those fellas who make one product and perhaps dont have time to participate in getting that product out there. just a thought.

I really don't mind the ads. It is the type of directed advertising that actually doesn't piss me off so I guess you can say it works. If the board doesn't need the money and it goes to charity instead then good on ya.

I've always wondered though how the board survives financially. I know, and greatly appreciate, the time the admins volunteer to this project. But what of the hard costs? Bandwidth, server, storage ... Who is picking up the tab for this? I've never seen a solicitation for benefactors but I would gladly participate in such a program. I think back to the 70's and 80's when it was just me, my Haynes, and the occassional trip to the mechanic. Compare that to the support and knowledge now available through this forum and you really see what a wonderful 'world' this is. It wouldn't be any fun trying to figure out things by myself and I would never have taken on the resurection attempt without you folks.

Being a very small vendor I have never felt the need to advertise except in my signature line. To be honest, I never really pay attention to the banner ads. I know there is a vendor section here and when I need stuff I go there to look first before I hit the other BIG parts suppliers.

I voted to stop them, but I really don't care on way or the other. I do like the money going to a charity.

This is flat out BULLSHIT and Rusty knows it. This poll is testiment to the fact that we wanted the people here to have the final choice. This shows how far he will go to pitch his cause. Just because I have an alternate view (not allowed in his book) it becomes some bullshit retoric about myself and/or McMark benifiting from this as to why we support it. BS gang... be careful what you read. Those are NOT my words. Those are NOT my reasons for wanting advertising and I will not allow him to put his words in my mouth our your mind.

I believe in the good of endemic advertising and I believe we can make a huge difference in a child's world by contributing to a very worthy charity. THOSE ARE MY REASONS FOR SUPPORTING ADVERTISING ON THIS SITE. PERIOD.

Here's my take on advertising:

1. I do not think advertising is a bad thing. No, not from a vendor standpoint but from an omnipresent standpoint. E.G.; people here see a banner from Craig, Pelican whomever... and it points them to a “special” where they can save money, everyone wins. Aren't "Group Buys" simple sale advertisements in the forum? Why haven't we put a stop to them? George advertised a fender flare group buy and saved this group close to $6,000. Endemic (914 related) advertising benefits both the people here and the vendor. We again are in a position to offer that said benefit. Banners on our site are a "non-issue", in fact, there was a thread where various people were looking for certain banners. A lot of people enjoy them. Show them a banner that fits their need... they don't care.

2. No one is suggesting the organization "Make" a dime off advertising. In the spirit of this organization (you know... the one we care about here), we have "always" suggested we give the money back to a charity of choice at the end of a Calendar or Fiscal year. I don’t know about you but that gives me a strong sense of belonging, accomplishment and pride in what we’re doing here.

3. There is no way you can convince me that allowing advertising now means we are no longer "Vendor Neutral". If in the course of time we edit posts because of a big dollar advertiser (who’s money we’ll never see) THEN you can tell me we’re no longer vendor neutral.

I think there are various personality types that will "Always" fear and/or loath advertising. This is normal. You’ve all heard the rhetoric; it's capitalism. It's money. It's trickery. Subliminal ways to get you to part with your money. They make you smoke. They make you drink. They make you overspend on your credit card. They make you overeat... let's sue McDonalds because they made a hamburger look so good on TV but didn't tell me I was going to get fat as a fucking house if I ate 13 of them a day. You hate them on TV every 10 minutes. You hate them when a Pop-Up or Pop-Under shows up on your computer... I could go on and on with all of the cliché references and neuro-associations we've been programmed to tie to the word "Advertising".

If you are one of the ones who hate it, it will never be good for our organization.

If you change your associations you can change your beliefs and be able to look at it "objectively".

At first blush, I said toss the ads. Infact, thats even the way I voted. Simply stated, you can not say that you are vendor neutral, with a banner ad for a preferred vendor at the top of the page. Thats like saying 1+1=3 Then I thought about it for a few seconds.

How is this site paying for itself?

Continuing along on a supposed "free" site is nice, so long as someone keeps paying for our bandwidth, server upgrades, etc. as a gift. I just don't think that is a sustainable practice.

Mark would never have been in the fight with Hilton that he is in now if 914World, LLC had bought that block of rooms, instead of him personally. The fact that our group can't support our "official" meets is a big liability towards having larger official meets.

I was one of the folks who never had a problem with the 914Club, member subscriptions, and banner ads. The money was going back into the club though get-togethers and stuff like that. So what if there was a profit to be made, that is the way these things work. Sure, there were issues to be worked out, but it was not a bad model to start.

Banner ads are part of the internet culture, and they are a way of raising money for a site that does need to be paid for somehow. At least ours are targeted to us, with vendors who are worth a damn; instead of banner ads for the "Turbonator" and other such smoke an mirrors kinda stuff.

To me, banner ads are really just the tip of the iceburg.

Keep the ads.

Zach

I often use the advertising banners to take me directly to the website of the vendor. After so many years on the internet my links are not terribly organized. I find it to be a convenience. I say, allow Motormeister to advertise. Just set the rate for it at $1 million a year. No pop-ups please.
The fact that the money for said advertisement goes to a good cause is just another good reason to allow it.

Hi Eric! Nice to see you this morning!

Come on... I didn't say that was your motivation, but I'm putting all the cards on the table.

We have two (potentially three) Admins that would personally benefit from banner ads. That's facts, buddy. Sorry if you don't like it.

I've been very clear I believe this is not the best course of action for 914world. This shouldn't be a surprise.



I'll pass on to my therapist, Dr. Melfi, that I have a personality type. I'm sure she'll appreciate the insight.



So, because I disagree with your ideas, I'm not "objective"? And if I change my associations to match yours, then I'll become "objective"?

Okay... whatever, Eric. Have a great day!

-Rusty

hasn't the 914 community been down this road before? Not just 914world?



just wondering


OK back to

not gonna bother me. FF w/ Adblock plus....

I like the banners because they are 914 specific. I would rather the money go to the site in more bandwidth, server space or features. I don't even care if the Admins make some money as long as it is not in leu of the site technical support.

Also, if admins are interested I sell telecom cables and racks for a living and could sell them to you at a substantial discount. IE: USB cables for $1.25....

How is the site paying for itself if it doesn't use any add revenue?

I think Lawrence has some valid points….although I can certainly see why Eric might be upset.

A few thoughts….

Users of the forum will likely assume, in spite of any disclaimers to the contrary, that a banner ad implies some quality or competency on the part of that vendor. Additionally, if a transaction goes poorly with a 'bannered' vendor, details will be shared on the forum and judgments will be made as to whether or not it is appropriate fodder for the general forum and, all in all, having ads is just one more area where there is potential for conflict. History has proven that conflict is not a good thing for the 914 community.

914World didn't create an original banner plan - the group merely honored a plan developed and committed to by previous interested parties. If 914World wishes to develop a banner ad plan with consideration to fees, donations, acceptance criteria for vendors, ad committee separate from administration team, etc. - that should be considered as a unique plan based on the population, demeanor and attitudes of the existing 914World population. Renewal of a plan not developed in consideration of the new 914World environment doesn't seem like the wisest course.


-Pam

I really don't care one way or the other. The ads have been 914-specific and haven't bothered me a bit.

However, I do believe the ads running here should benefit this community. I would love to see funds go towards hosting expenses, compensating the people putting in the time to run the board, improving the product / board software features, paying part of the expenses of some annual gatherings, etc. But I don't see the point in generating revenue if it is not needed.

You must have missed the all money goes to charity part. So no, we haven't been down this road before.

I don't see what the big debate is.... this is obviously not a money thing, so the question is really only Do you mind the banner ads?

The site is paid for, and there is no question there. It's not necessary to debate it. It's paid for and it will continue to be paid for. End of story.



Why is everything a big, dramatic, overblown debate?

The funds provided for the original banner ads were not used for the benefit of the community at large. World only honored a previous agreement and did not receive any benefit.

A fair amount of the vendors running banner ads regularly donate give aways for the events individuals hold and the events are promoted, planned and executed by individuals without monetary assistance from any bbs.

For the reason above, it seems most reasonable to run banner ads for those that do contribute regularly.

Nuff said!

My take is a little different.

I have no issues with banners. I have no issues with not having banners. I have no issue with people making money. I don't believe in self-imposed or self-enforced neutrality. So where does that leave me?

To the best of my knowledge, and I may be wrong, World.com is not a corporation. Therefore, there should be no issues with "opening the books" so that people can see the real costs associated with running the site.

Take or leave the advertising, I don't care, but make the financials transparent. This way all conspiracies can be dealt with in an open manner.

Geez, I miss Howard at times like this. He was always a cool head for this stuff.

Here's the open books:

914World balance: $0.00
Income this quarter: $0.00
Expenses this quarter: $0.00
Total balance at this time $0.00
Estimated future income/expenses: $0.00

Somebody who thinks this is about money PLEASE call me so I can understand where the confusion is: 707-738-5686.

Mark,

There has to be costs associated with running the site. Sure, we may be piggy-backing on some other systems, but there are costs. What about upgrades and backups? Just from a tech perspective, there are always costs.

I assume that there are people that think that this is some cash generating venture, and I want to make sure that people know what's going on.

Lastly, caveat emptor should be the default position of any consumer, regardless of what a web-site or banner ad says.

I was not referring to where the money goes of what it is used for. Just the overall obvious difference of opinion even amongst the Admins over this subject in general. Ads/no Ads.

No drama just an general observation....
the way not to have drama is for the admins to get together, discuss the pros and cons and then make an appropriate call.

the ads make no difference to me...take them or leave them ...I rarely look at them unless I want a quick link directly to one of them to check something out.

Rusty, Are you a communist? You love to censor me and now you're arguing against the free market aspects of this site? I would hope admins and others who put their time into this site and community who own commercial ventures could put a banner ad on this site. Maybe its time for you to move on and start your own non-commercial site?

Its silly to think that a harmless banner ad would drive this site one direction or the other. I personally like the banner ads as it makes it easier to find a supplier. I also like being reminded that certain vendors are still around.

There are a couple suppliers here and at 914 club that have made sales to me due to their banner ads. I dont think we would want to hurt anyone by taking these down now.

I just dont see the issue.

Is that through an absorption costing model, or a variable costing model? Its important to be clear on these issues.

Zach

First I will say - I am biased.

I will also say that the admins provide me with a log of clicks on my ads. There has not been a day since we started that I did not get at least one click on a banner, so it seems to be useful to have them for a lot of people here.

you are correct. there are costs associated with running the site. they are all taken care of. the bills are paid every month and they will continue to be paid every month.

this poll is NOT about who pays for the site. the site is paid for. it has been paid for since the day it started. it will always be paid for.

is that clear enough for 'ya all?


now, please move along and get back to the actual question in this poll ...
Andy

I agree, but if it's going to cause a shit fight, whoever gets some little revenue, then pull the plug. Life's too short.

It would be nice if it did go back to the community, but going to a good cause is a good thing too. I don;t see how having the banners would hurt, and I do actually see how it helps as I have clicked and bought stuff from them. Had they not been there I wouldn't even know about it.

I like the banner ads and here's why:

1. Gives exposure to buyers about vendors making 914 parts. This is especially helpful for newbies who have not yet heard about all the "usual suspects". The caveat to this is to keep all the ads 914 related. If I see some ad about how I can win a free plasma TV by identifying the capital of the US, I quickly stop using the site.

2. Gives exposure to vendors. Any way we can help those dedicated to keeping our 914's alive, lets do it. Having to specifically go to the vendor's section is too time consuming for those "impulse" purchases.

3. Giving some $ to Toys for Tots is a great thing.

4. As long as the board remains neutral about who can advertise, I see no problem. (If the problem arises, I could support not letting a vendor with a track record of rip-offs advertise, but that may be opening a unintentional can of worms not relevant to today's discussion.)

My $0.02

Konrad
72/4

Works for me Andy. I don't think that you should have to bear that burden alone.

I brought it up because some folks forget that there are costs to run the place and regardless of the existence of ads, those costs should be dealt with.

BTW: Thanks for taking care of those costs.

I voted for the banners. If the site owner/admin chose to use it for funding site maintenance it's well within their right. Nothing is free.

However, I think sending the money to charity is a fine idea.

Run em'

KEEP EM!

1. I own a couple of 914's

2. I need parts and information to maintain the 914's

3. I am an adult who can pick and choose where and how to spend my money in maintaining those 914's

4. I frequent this site BECAUSE I own 914's

IMHO - If you can raise money and awareness for a particular charity by selling banner ad's that are directly related to the 914 - (parts, services, etc), I'm all for it!

BTW - Thanks Andy and "others" for the FREE site for us to enjoy!

hmm. Lots of passion on the question on the part of a few individuals. No doubt a lingering result of the great catyclism.

There shouldn't be. It was nice of the admins to ask - they didn't have to. They have said they don't need money to run the site which is cool even if I do feel a little like a leach for benefiting for something I don't pay for. But if we are not paying for the service then we really don't have any claim to any control over the site. Like I said - nice to be asked anyway. Shows that the real intent of inner circle is to provide us a comfortable place to gather.

Let's face it folks most of us really don't feel strongly one way or the other. We are here for the resources and the camraderie.

So did you see the thread on small 6 vrs big 4? There's something to get passionate over

What banner ads?

Beat me to it. If you keep the page on your screen so you can't see the obnoxious "nailed" stuff, you never see the banner ads ..................... The Cap'n

Let 'em run! Do a good thing - besides, the Harley guys get too much Toys for Tots press.

If Andy & the "boys" are happy with the financials, why make an issue of it? Yeah, I know, it doesn't seem totally fair, but they've made it pretty obvious a bunch of times to leave it alone. If they ever need help from the members, they know it's here.

Just vote "yea" or "nay" on the concept of banner ads.

People!

The site expenses are donated. So, there are no operating expenses.

Ad revenue will go to C H A R I T Y, 100%. IF there is ad revenue.

If there are no ads based on the V O T E S there won't be any M O N E Y going to Toys for Tots.

No money will be collected by 914 World. The vendor sends it straight to the charity. IF THERE ARE ADS, see above for clarification.

BTW, Toys 4 Tots was/is Howard's favorite charity.

Does it need to be written in Crayon?

I wasn't talking about you but, I'm sure you can satisfy her job security into eternity. Here's a link for those, like you, who are uninformed of the 4 basic personality types:

http://www.personalitypage.com/four-prefs.html

My comments were derived from a rational expectation that "some will and some won't like advertising" which is why it was followed with "This is normal".



Again, I wasn't talking about you. Disagreeing with my ideas is fine. Accusing me and others, in an open forum, of promoting advertisements solely to benefit from them is... well, just about as ignorant as a lot of us have come to expect from you lately. I don't plan to advertise... now what?

Come back when Dr. Melfi is done.

I would say that based on this thread I would get rid of them, as they seem to create conflict every time the subject comes up.

I might be biased, I know who the vendors are so the advertising doesn't help me.

yep........

too, though giving money to Toys for Tots does sound good

I know who the vendors are and I still use the banners. It is convenient for me.

The only conflict I have historically ever seen over this is about what to do with the money. Lots of people seem concerned with who is getting rich. The answer is nobody. The money goes to Toys For Tots. That is NOT an issue. Please rest your fingers and calm your nerves. Nobody is getting more candy than you!!!

Besides, the main conflict here doesn't seem to actually be over the issue. It seems more over personality. They just don't seem to like each other.

Just curious, why is someone making money off this a bad thing? Do people think they will leave us for a 911?

I don't get the big deal on this though. The money is going to charity, and the people advertising are good 914 people.

Don't care either way, I'm just happy to have the site. Life's too short to worry about these things! Back to my 914-6 winter projects.

I could not agree more.

Sheeesh.

I also can't help but wonder whether the drama queens think nobody notices when they write a post that says "x", and then when questioned on it, reply by saying "I didn't say x".

Ugh.

Ok.. quick explanation.


The admins wanted to give the members a choice on continuing the banner ads or ending them. We did not want to make that decision for everyone. After all, this is supposed to be a member owned community.

But our major concern was money. The biggest, overriding cause of the "December to Remember" was money. Money caused the meltdown, and we do not want that to happen again in any way, shape or form. So, to make sure that it NEVER happens again, we came up with the Toys for Tots plan. IF the members want banner ads, then we will run them. To get a banner ad, you make a contribution for the cost of the banner ad to Toys for Tots. Then Toys for Tots contacts us to verify payment. Then we run the ads.

This site is FREE. It will remain that way. I personally will never accept money for my work here. Andy has made it clear that he will not accept money for the website hosting. Like Aaron said, 914world has no money, and it never will.

We are determined to never experience another "December to Remember"!!

I also agree with Cone Dodger, in that they do provide a quick link to some of our friendly advertisers.

I use the ads at times and they are 914 specific. Keep them.

It is to difficult to make a decision when you have a large group involved. I would suggest that the principles make the decision, state the facts and tell people the decision you've made. Some will like it, others won't. Some will get over it, others won't.

There are more important things to worry about than where the ad $$ goes from this site. Worry about the troops.

You guys should have given us one more choice: We don't care either way

But I also think that's too simple an explanatation. I think it was more about transparency, which always will be an issue if it's not present.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.




Oh yeah, free is a good price........thanks!