I'm going to try this - not now but tomorrow morning. I have a lot of 1000 grit paper from painting.

Wet sand or dry? Or does it not matter? Will a sharpie marker work in-place of machineist dye?

Zach

Dry.. The Sharpie will work if you apply it heavily.. Let it dry for an hour before the process.

Zach a shim isn't the answer. Remember when we pulled the head and saw the leakage it was only in that small area. Shimming wouldn't correct a tilt. Do as Jake says. Since the head swap yielded the same results you have a register or jug issue.

from this statement I'd say that either cylinder 2 is too tall or cylinder 1 is too short. If the gap is not even from one side to the other of cylinder 1, then one of the two is not sitting square (register droop) or the cylinders have unequal heights, not square, or some combination. I'd pull each cylinder, place on a flat (like glass) and use a height guage to ensure (a) equal height while spinning the cylinder, and ( equal height for each cylinder. Since the bottom seating surface is not the bottom of the cylinder, you have to invert the cylinder on the glass and measure the height of (a) & ( to the seating surface. If there is any variation, then do as Jake suggests. If there is no variation, then suspect a drooped case register or two.

Are these Chinese cylinders??

Did you ever check your piston rings?

I've seen destroyed rings yield the same type of results.

I agree it may be a bad cylinder or bad case register as well.

Doubtful. The inside of the barrels looked fine with no signs of scoring. As to what Dave mentioned I believe that to be the problem. The blowby inside the head was confined to a smal area on the inside of #1. Area was about 1/4" wide. Were the whle cylinder off I would have expected to see blow by in several areas around the chamber

My rings are golden. As on good, not gold colored. :-)
'
Are the Chinese Cylinders... Dunno, let me go see if they say anything.
Not Chinese. Cyl #1 is stamped: "039 101 ?01C 18 15 17 VW" The "?" is either a 3, 8 or 9, I can't tell.

Pistons are Keith Blacks

So, today I tried the 1000grit sandpaper on glass. There were two very shallow depressions where the ink stayed, but neither of them were where the leak was. However, I polished the cylinder until it was level, and put the head back down. 70% leak, worse not better. But that made sence as I had just removed a little metal.

I measured the cylinder and got 6.008 inches. I measured several times, and was able to replicate the measurement at different points. Good, I think I have it level now.

I pulled the #2 cylinder off, and measured it. I noticed right off that it had 2 spacers to the #1 cylinders single spacer. I measured it at 6.020 inches. One of the spacers was .010 inches, so I removed it and remeasured. As expected, the cylinder (#2) was now at 6.010 inches.

I was going to put it all back on the block and re-leak it, but my wife let me know that I should consider heading in for dinner. We had cancelled our NYE plans for the evening, so after dinner I'll head back out and put everything back together.

I guess I am going to need to re-measure deck height since I polished one cylinder, and took a base shim off another.

Or, I suppose I could buy a .010 shim to bring the shorter cylinder up, which is what I probably need to do.

Right now I think that I should be within .002 inches of one to the other, which should even out the leak down, right?

Jake, would you like me to continue posting this on your forums too?
Zach

NOW we're getting somewhere !!

Well, it appears most of your problem was the extra base shim on cylinder 2. However, you said the gap was .005 to .007 and you took out .010 . So you should still have an error of .003 to .005 even though the cylinders are .002 different. Wow, lots of tiny errors all over.

What I would try at this point would be to clamp the cylinders down and remeasure the evenness of the two cylinders in place. If you get an error, then try switching the cylinders. One combo should be the the better of the two, so use that combo and assemble. Then do the leakdown test again.

No!!
Thats half assed!

You MUST have equal cylinder lengths and equal case decks.. Adding a shim will tweak the head when the engine fires up and expands...

Sure, feel free to post on my forums as well.

Well, I just put the cylinders back on, put the head back on, and re-leaked it.

No change. Still 70% leak on No1.

I guess I am going to start tearing down the case to get it decked. I've checked everything else. I think.

To add insult to injury, while putting the #1 cylinder back on it slipped out of my fingers and I broke three fins (oily fingers from lubing the piston to help it slide in).

I am utterly demoralized right now. I so thought I would have this licked today. Instead, I have managed to make everything worse.

Zach

Welcome to the world of mechanical manipulation.

Try it everyday, all day...

And people wonder why I am so intense...

Do I need to replace the cylinder? If you added up the broken fin pieces it added up to 5 inches of broken fins. 3 inches from 1 fin, 1 inch from the 2 other fins.

Zach

New cylinder time I am impressed with your perseverance on this, Zach. I am now more free to give you a hand and will be seeing you in a few hours so we can talk.

Hey Zach,

Remember I told you I have that case laying around?Well I will give it to you and ask for a small donation of $100 to buy my rods crank and light flywheel to go with it. There are already oversized bearings on the thing to match the case which was line bored . The whole assembly only has a couple thousand miles on it. Just a thought.

Josh

Zach,

Real sorry about the cylinder drop! Shit happens!

For what it's worth,
in my eye's you are the Great "CHILI GOD" of Eastern Pennsylvania!

Keep at it you'll get there .............wish I was closer to help!

root

Yep, that cylinder is toast..

Damn........

I got him fixed up. I gave him 2 cylinders (so if he drops one he is still ok ). Now he just has to have them punched out and then he can fool with this some more.

Damn cool

Glad you're on the right path now Things will go together so much easier when the case's measurements are all exact and equal.

Yup, got some used jugs from Mike, and a dial guage to really take accurate readings when I go back to measure deck height. I am only going to get one of them punched out, and return the unused one, once I get this puppy sorted.

I am going to be checking out day care places after work today, so I will probably drop the cylinder off to the machine shop tomorrow after work. I am also going to have them make sure that the cylinder mating surfaces are both perfectly square to each other.

Just to be sure, when I ask for the cylinder to be bored out, I want them to bore it to 96mm, right? I think thats right, but better to ask first. (2056 engine). Is there anything special that I should be asking them to do while they have the jug?

Zach

Bring the piston that you will be using in that cylinder to the machine shop.
Read the specs on the rings, and the piston to determine the proper bore (clearance) for that piston and ring set.

Then you will know the bore dimension.
Cylinders are bored for specific pistons, not generic.


rich

THANKS!
I did not know that.

Zach

Perhaps Jake will chime in on this for the definitive answer. He uses very specific piston to cylinder clearances that depend on the specific cylinder and specific piston.
For boring out the cylinder I understand that the cylinder MUST be clamped in a fixture just as it will be on the engine; that is, the cylinder will be clamped with equal force to what it sees between the case and head. Apparently there can be a small amount of warping of the cylinder when it is clamped as opposed to when it is sitting free. Thus the cylinder must be clamped when it is bored so that it remains perfectly cylindrical when it is installed on the engine.

Probably would be a god idea to have BOTH of the cylinders for that side trued up and assured they are both even with one another. Little more $$ but it would let you know that, THAT will not be an issue upon reassembly. Remember, you still haven't solved the initial blow by problem

You will also need to know what plateau finish to put on the cylinders for your specific ring pack.

Or hopefully your machinist knows the right finish.

Even if you take the piston with you to show the machinist.
Does your machinist know what clearance the piston to cylinder should be...????

IMHO... YOU need to know this stuff before you see the machinist.

Personally, I have all my cylinders bored and honed in boring jig that is torqued to about 60 Lbs. for boring and 35-40 lbs for honing.
(SOMETIMES CALLED A HONING OR TORQUE PLATE)

This are basically a 1.5 inch thick plate of aluminum with the center milled out to access the cylinders. There is plate at the top AND the bottom of the cylinders held together by 4 hardened pieces of all thread. Then torqued to a given spec. Before any machining AND measuring takes place.

I have different plates for different bores. (Like big bores 101' 103s etc.)

If ya want to do this nats ass..... It's a good place to start.

And I would think that most GOOD aircooled machinists also do something along those lines. And have the plates available.
Cause they aint cheap to make for a one time dealio. (Time consuming)

Also... It looks like you are going to incorporate the existing "Used" rings on your pistons.
Have your machinist CHECK the rings closely for both circumferential wear and also the top edge of the top 2 rings.

If they aren't close to perfect. They MAY not seat well on a new surface.
Then again... They may work just fine.

I use new rings on fresh cylinders. PERIOD.
They are cheap insurance for good leakdown numbers and and low oil consumption.

Then again... I'm a nut case that way. Do it right..... ONCE.

Clayton
Cheers,

I just dropped Cyl 1&2 and piston 1 off at Air Cooled Racing. I could not get ahold of the local guy at Bug World - he is really part time these days.

Anyhow, Steve at Air Cooled was very cool, and we ended up talking for about an hour as he showed me all the stuff he was working on at his shop. If you happen to be in the big GT-headlight group buy, I saw the kits. VERY nice!

So, the cylinder should be punched out in 2 weeks or so. I asked him to bore out the new cylinder, check the rings on the piston to be sure they were still good to use, make sure the new cylinder was squared on both mating surfaces, and cut the "new" cylinder to the same height as the #2 cylinder.

There are several VERY NICE 914s at Air Cooled. He is already getting his stuff ready for the Hershey meet in April.

Zach

I am impatient. I want to get back to work on my engine.

I guess I'll go out and work on my wiring instead.

Zach

kuddos to ya'. your perserverance is good for us all. your doing it right as frustrating as it may be. i'm in the middle of a 2056 cylinder cluster thanks to the football players at u.s.p.s.... you insure the cylinders, then after estemates and 3 mo.'s sending them to be whatevered, they "might" even prorate the insured value.

good things come to those that wait, i guess mine will be REAL good

have you figured if the registers a flat? what i'm wondering is did you determine no leakage at rings/valves and ONLY at head to cyl?

mike

The leak is at the head, no question.

Okay, a question.

I have all the head studs out of the 1&2 bank except for 1, which will not budge, and I am afraid of snapping it. I have been soaking it for 2 days in Liquid Wrench, tapping with a hammer, and heating the case where the stud is with a MAPP torch and I still can't get it to move. I have tried vice grips and double nutting the top.

What else can I try. I really don't want to break this puppy.

Zach

Patience Grasshoppa

Keep soaking and heating and tapping. Time will loosen it for you. Also it never hurts to try a clockwise rotation.

Dave

Get a good penetrant like PB Blaster or Kroil, they work much better than Liquid Wrench. Also try getting some parrafin, heat the boss, touch the parrafin to the stud and let it wick into the case (tilt the case up to use gravity to help if you can). Get a couple of vice grips, like 3 or 4, on the stud as close to the base as possible (don't try double nutting, you will snap the stud due to the twist). Use all of them at once to try to spin it out.

I still broke a stud trying all of this, but this is the advice I got from people as the best way to try to get it free. I know people have said that it is a bitch to get the studs out if they snapped but a machinist buddy of mine got it out cleanly no problem.

You may also want to try some liquid nitrogen on the stud to try to get the temp differential that much higher, only problem is ALs high thermal conductivity. Good luck!

I tried the liquid oxygen trick ONCE.

The stud snapped immediately with very little pressure. I guess that particular kind of steel doesn't like getting sub zero +. Thankfully we had an EDM machine across the street.... Insta fix.

C

Thats good to know!

Why are you removing the head studs?

decking the case I would imagine

Mainly I was removing the head studs so I could get some accurate measurements of the case registers without the studs getting in the way.

I could be wrong, but I didnt think that was necessary (stud removal). More chance for damage from the evolution. What gave you this idea?

If you've gone to the trouble of pulling the studs then I'd get the case decked (most time consuming part = completed!). Or is your shortblock already assembled?

Not sure what measurements you want to take but to check for a dropped register you should just have to drop a straight edge across the two registers at the register centerlines and check for a gap. I think the registers are prone to collapsing at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions or the area in between the two.

When heating, apply flame to the stud not the case. Get the steel glowing and then SLOWLY try to back it out.

Why would you want to expand the stud and not the case?

Just keep tapping the stud. And tweaking it every day. It will start to move eventually. Heat is your friend. Just keep it going.

Have ya tried 4 vise grips and 2 people..??????

If all else fails. Just bear down hard with a rattle gun and double nut or a stud extractor.
You WILL bend the stud. Get another stud form me or Jake or whoever.

Thats the worst case scenario. No big deal.

Note: If your case register is collapsing. What makes you think it won't continue to collapse after the decking...??????

I'll bet you the following will happen.
If you have the block line honed. You wil also find out that the block is distorted from the main bearing collapsing. Thus the deformation of the block.

Thats has been my experience on the last 2 GA block I threw away.

I hope Jake tells us more about what and WHY is going on with these 2.0 blocks. He is the only one I know that actually has the answers.
Me... I'm just doing a bit of guess work and trying to surmise the facts. He knows the facts.

If I didn't have the luxury and use of of a couple of high end machine shops and Jakes descriptions of our block issues. I would be seriously screwed. ONLY because of his knowledge. Do I have a clue to any of this.
Again... The word grateful come to mind. Else my shit would blow up and I wouldn't have a clue as to the why's of it.

I have an EA block sitting around here somewhere if shit hits the fan on yours.

Or I think you can buy a decked block from Jake if needed. (At least you used to be able to)

So there is more food for thought.

Clayton

I am spraying the stud with PB Blaster and tapping the stud every morning when I walk into the garage to drive to work, and every evening when I get home. I'll try to turn it again either Friday or Saturday.

Zach

Any way to get an impact wrench on it? It would seem that thousands of little poundings would be better than one big torque with a wrench or vice grip.

keep a hammer by them and give them a couple hits to help "shock" the penatrant in

The stud twists too much, the torque doesn't get transfered to the threads in the base if you double nut it at the top. Thats why you have to grab it as close to the base as you can with vice grips.

-Chris

What is the best way to split the case? I have all the bolt undone but two.

However, the case is glues together with RVT I think, and I'd like to know the best way to split it without marring the mating surfaces.

If I can't get that last head stud out by this weekend, I am going to send the case half to the machinist and let him worry about it.

Zach

this may help split the case but i'm not answering the question about the best way. there is a tool that has 2 arced sides and a bolt/nut that pushes the 2 arcs apart. this tool can fit into the oil pump hole and help persuade the 2 case halves to separate. of course, in the hands of a hack like me, one could cause all sorts of problems using the tool; imagine what you would do to the case if you were using the tool to try to split the cases and had missed removing one of the bolts that holds the case together..... the best way? a rubber mallet with gentle strokes on parts of the case that won't break off or get damaged.