so i've been thinking about opening a bar/club here in oakland for a while now and yesterday i was offered what i would consider the ideal venue.

the club has been at the current place for 25 years, comes with full inventory, liquor license, venue license, got a large outside patio where people can smoke & drink, full bar, full kitchen (!), large stage for shows. about 3000 sf of inside space.
the current owner has simply been burned out and wants to retire.

now i have run my own bar back in germany and i'm friends with several club owners back home, so i know the business side of it, but it would be great if i could pick someone's brain who has run a bar/club here in the US.
i'm sure there'll be quite a few differences.

if you know anything about the club/bar business, please PM me so i can annoy you with lots of questions!
Andy

My Dad and I had a bar biz when I was 18. The rowdiest place in town 3.2 joint. There were 8 fights in 5 hours, started before noon one Sunday. I was working by myself...

Great way to make a small fortune.... out of a big one.

Andy - no personal experience but I can put you in touch with a guy who owns Woody Zips in SF.

Let me know.

T

naaa, no fighting over here, we're all civilized in kalifornia!
i'm not interested in remodeling every month ...

i know you can make money with these places, all you have to do is find your "niche" and oakland has been missing a nice underground/punk/biker club for a while now.
the next best thing is in san francisco and people from the east bay are very hesitant to go over the bridge to get drunk.

i know the place would draw a good sized crowd every night and be packed for shows ...
Andy

Last time I checked, a liquor license in CA cost more than the most expensive Porsche...is the liquor license included in the sale/transfer?

Oh ya, You'll make money. Rule the place like your kingdom. Watch your employees like a hawk. A good bar tender can skim an easy 100.00 a night from the profits. Food theft is always an issue then there's spoilage. Food business is a real science. You can do it though. That would be a cool place!

And Let me know when you take over. My kid would love to book a gig there!

yes! all included ...

wouldn't touch it otherwise as oakland does not issue any new liquor licenses anymore. the only way to get one is to take an existing one over or if one goes back to the pool after a place closed down.
and the waiting list for that is looooong ...
Andy

So, screw the club idea. Buy the place and obtain a copy of the Liquor License waiting list. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Highest bidder gets the liquor license. Take your proft and retire on a small island in Polynesia.

i like the way you think ...

In order to keep this on topic... Did I hear "Free Beer for all 914 Owners!!!"

I'm there...

Kind of right, CALIFORNIA does not issue any new liquor licenses.

Allison and I have a pet dream of opening a pub in Napa. But that's just beer/wine, not big deal.

WTF is wrong with california?

dont the legislators have some other more pressing matters than restricting the flow of booze? ohhhhh, like hmmmm, that little problem of illegal immigration?

I remember when prop 249 was struck down by a judge even though it was voted in on a landslide.... that's when we were living there.

prop 249 (or was it 247?) was a proposal to not give any freebies to illegals.

then lois capps got elected to her dearly departed husband's seat in congress because she was his wife. god forbid someone who knows wtf is going on gets elected..

oh yeah, you dont need to know shit to be a politician, how dumb of me to forget.

maybe i'm just bitter... no more cali for me. it's got great weather and chicks, the lawmakers make that state unbearable anymore.

that club sounds badass though andy! good idea!

Rick,

You should explain to Andy that Minnesota is a dry on Sunday state that differentiates between beer and what we used to call squah piss which is the 3.2% alcohol beer. No on-sale on Sunday or after 10pm at night. People in Minneapolis and I would imagine Duluth would make a 'sconi pop' run to Wisconsin on Sunday to get real beer.
Also if your bar was up there on the iron range they fist fight with there mothers over who is going to do the dishes. So five fights in one day is probably pretty good...
My brothers had a brawl outside the ice house over who actually pulled in a 12# walleye one winter. Laughed there heads off when they were done...

Go Andy!!! I can see the neon now! The 914Club! That would probably have someones underwear in a twist!!!

be careful.......

Most bar/restaurant owners I know end up burnt out and alcoholics.

and?

All kidding aside...it happened to one of my closest friends growing up and he lost it all (family, health, money etc..)...very sad and sometimes tough to avoid.

Sounds cool though, because I play in a band I always wanted to have a cool venue to call my own.

Don't forget to get some cheese curds in Wisco.

I bartended for a club for many years here in Seattle. They can make great money, but they can be a pain in the ass too. The owner of ours ended up closing after only 3 years as it was too much of a headache. He ended up just going to a restaurant that made half what the club did.

But how's the parking?

no parking lot but *plenty* of street parking ...
Andy

Hey Andy: Liz and Nico Ortiz are the owners/operators of a brewpub (Turtle Mountain) where we had the Atomic Ramble here in Rio Rancho. I'll ask Liz to PM you. Nico is about to open a full liquor bar at the old place where we spent the night / partied / BBQ'd / got good 'n So he's going through the setup of the exact same biz that you're looking at getting into. Not sure what more he could tell you, you seem to have it down pat. But I'll see what I can do to put you two in touch.

I'll be sure to stop by next time I'm in the Bay area at all ... Sounds like it'll be a kick ass joint!

Cheers!

-Nelson

Hey Nelson!

I could have thought of that myself ... i'm getting old.
i went to the turtle mountain brewpub the last time i came through new mexico ...

it would be great if Liz and Nico could get in touch with me ...
Andy

As do many 914 owners...

I'm trying to picture Rick Ollah as a BOUNCER? Did you break up the fight yourself or did you have help? Are you in posession of some super secret martial arts skills? I've seen a few bar fights and my attitude is... "give me three steps toward the door"!!

Cheers, Elliot (let me outa here) Cannon

I can see where a big guy like you is coming from with that grin an chuckle. But, well, yes, as a matter of fact I did walked several drunks out the door by myself. I'm kind of one of those guys that run into the fire.

This is 32 years ago. I was just 6 months out of my body cast after major back surgury and I weighed 89 lbs. I'm not kidding. I looked like Popeye. I used to do 100 pushups in my body cast. I had big arms and a skeleton for a frame.
You can ask Sandy next time we see you. We've been together for 32 years.

You really can't get in a good old fashion fist fight anymore. Now when you fight a guy he doesn't pull a knife he pulls a lawyer.

Now you couldn't get away with this now but, I had a sawed off pool que behind the bar and I wasn't afraid to use it. You would be surprised how easy it is to walk a drunk guy out the door after one small crack with a blunt end of a pool que. It really stings. And when your drunk, your processor isn't working very good. By the time you figure out why your hand, shoulder, thigh or head hurts, I have you off balance by the shirt and belt and I'm walking your snuggy out the door fast.

I never had a fight with anyone smaller than me, and I've only had my bell rung once. I like being the nice guy with the smiling face and nice things to say, but I'm kind of like a pit bull when my trigger is tripped. Ask Sandy what happened to the big Swede that stole her purse one night when we were 18.

Sorry for the Hi-jack response Sir, But it's life in the old school bar scene.

Hey...a 914 Club House....

Food/Health Inspectors are the worst.....they can kill you with violations and if they are on the take, you need to find out immediately.

The ABC, Alcoholic Beverage Control will be all over you for the first six months, especially if you attract a young crowd. The wrist band thing used to work on 18 and over night if you serve food....not sure if that dodge still works. It's been 25+ years since I was a liquor wholesaler like my Dadz....

You'll need a dance permit most likely, which means you need to be nice nice with the local agenacy that handles it. Live music, same thing, you'll need to know if there are any noise ordinances, as well as signage...is anything Granfathered in? Will you taking over, require any changes? Maybe keeping him as 5% owner will negate that.

also, if you will own the building get an environmental assessment prior to taking over....Lead, Asbestos, mold, etc.....employee complaints in that area will bring the assholes from OSHA and the AQMD.

Probably no help, but there is a guy named Ian, who owned "The Burgundy Room" in Hollywood, and also owned "The Ruby Room" in Oakland. He had an absolutely beautiful red Speedster... a '58 I think. We used to talk Porsches a lot in between the Porn Stars/Rock Stars/Tattoos/Flames...

"The Ruby Room" is now owned by my friend Trevor who is the president of the "East Bay Rats" motorcycle club ...
Andy

Andy

A buddy of mine just opened a bar back here just north of Boston. He has been open for only a few months & started from scratch. He cleaned up an old storefront that was a Jamaican food resturant and applied for & managed to get a liquor license from the town (sometimes it's better to be lucky than good).

He absolutely loves it, but he lives there from 11 am till 2 am every day. Lots & lots of hours involved. Carve out a little private office for yourself with a comfortable couch for quick naps. Have internet & TV to keep yourself entertained.

Like other guys stated, you will have to watch your employees like a hawk!!! Those free beers that get handed out to their friends & family add up real quick. He has already canned a bartender or two.

If you are going to have food, here is a thought. Rob rents out the kitchen to a guy, splits the gas utility bill with him, and gets a small cut of the food profits. It seems to be working out well for both of them; he can offer food to the customers which helps drag people in the door during the day (when it is dead slow). And he doesn't have to deal with the kitchen.

He makes all his money from Wednesday night thru Saturday night. He has bands on these nights. Costs him a few hundred bucks, but they usually bring their own audiance, which balances out the expence. He was doing karioke (sp?), but I think he stopped doing that (because it's lame!!!). The bands always brings in a crowd.

Have a big mo-fo working the door. Rob has one of the largest, scariest humans I have ever met hanging out whenever he has a band. There has yet to be any trouble (and he is in a sketchy neighborhood).

You gotta make sure that no-one is overserved. He & his staff had to attend classes to be able to determine when people have had enough. As you probably already know, people get mouthy when they are drunk & shut-off, so just have the above mentioned big, scary mo-fo explain it to them. As long as the drunks are not being assholes, he lets them stick around & drink water/soda. I guess that it is smart that way; no need to piss off the clientell as long as they are not jerks. You want them to come back & give you their cash. If they are out of line, the big scary mo-fo escorts their ass out the door.

He also has zero parking, nothing, zilch. This has not been an issue as he is on a main drag. He gets alot of neighborhood people, and those who drive always manage to find a place on their own.

ABC has already been in his place a few times. They will send youngsters in to try & get served (several times it has been hot-girls witha BS story). Check everyone's ID!!!!

Send me a PM if you have questions & would like to chat with him. I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving some pointers out to someone else in this situation.

Good luck!

Larry

Hmmmm sounds to me like you already have your mind made up and are looking for us to talk you out of it. If this is what you want to do then do it. Nothing worse then looking back and saying what if.....

Reminds of owning a boat or a motorhome. The best days are the day you buy it! and the day you sell it!

Do it! You can always quit afterwards and even if it costs you a small fortune I think it will be worth the experience

I'd come visit.

i allways thought you walked them through the (closed) door, not out the (open) door.

k

Here's my experience as an entertainer for a few bars in Souther California.

Yes, karaoke qualifies as entertainment, even if for some it is a form of cruel and unusual punishment.

I've seen clubs started/ended. I've been hired and I've been fired. The one thing I've noticed is... people really hate change. If this is a "neighborhood" bar, the majority of your patrons are probably locals and regulars. People who don't want to drive anywhere else... but who are SO married to the place, any change will send them to the next closest bar, even if they bitched about it for years on end before you took over.

So, the first question is do you plan to keep the same clientelle? If you do, then you have to be VERY careful to make changes small, and slow. Keep running things as they are for at least a few months. When you make DRASTIC changes, people get pissed and they go elsewhere.

If you plan to bring in a different crowd... advertising and promotion is expensive, costly, and slow to show returns most of the time. Unless you have a trustworthy promoter, and he is willing to work for just the door to promote your bar.

Sounds like you're leaning toward a "punk" not "local" bar. That, in my experience, seems to attract a YOUNGER crowd. Younger crowds typically attract trouble, so as others have stated above, you will have to invest in security. Whatever that means. My experience has also shown that younger people tend to consume less alcohol. Not sure if it's applicable all over... but the "older people" bars I've worked at did better per check with older clientelle.

You will also have to make sure everyone gets carded on their way in, especially if you're offering entertainment. If not, everyone needs to be carded at the bar. Those exceptions get costly. Most servers know the consequences... but even the $500 first time offender fine gets clouded on most servers with the promise of additional tip revenue.

I've seen owners drink themselves into stupidity in front of their guests. It happened at the last bar I worked at. It wasn't pretty. Middle aged woman, wrinkled from a hard life, appearing more than 10 years older than she was, hanging out all over the younger clients in her drunken stupor.

My suggestion is NEVER to get THAT drunk in your own bar. It's flat out bad for business. People will lose respect for you... and stop showing up at your bar.

Last but not least... entertainment is key. And as much as I know ONLY the karaoke aspect of entertainment, I will share my experience and suggestions. Nobody likes to go to an empty bar. No atmosphere leads to drinking depression, rather than drinking socially.

I think successful bars understand that you need to offer a variety of entertainment. Have a DJ night, a couple of band nights, and a karaoke night. If the place has a PA, work on getting a JAM session where people just go in a plug in to have a good time.

Running a bar, in my opinion, is not a short term endeavor. It should be considered a LONG TERM INVESTMENT.

That's my $0.02

there hasn't been a "scene" club/bar here in the east bay in a long time. the next best thing, the "silver lion" is closing it's doors in a week. the owner sold the building and the new owner does not want to keep a bar in the building.

the "crowd" here is much older than you'd expect. this is not santa cruz
mostly old punk rockers and old bikers. and they tend to spend a fair amount of money on booze.

there really is a void here for that kind of establishment. i know there would be a good number of "regulars" every day and the place would be packed when you put on shows.

security is no problem, there's two big motorcycle clubs here in oakland, the Hells Angles and the Easy Bay Rats. Both are on good terms with each other and the EBR provide security for quite a few bars/clubs around here. I know all of them personally and they would be more than happy to work the door.

i've already got two reliable bartenders lined up that have been in the "scene" for 20+ years and one of them is manager material. i also already have the money lined up to go forward with this.

now it all depends on the current owner and the terms he going to offer. i have another meeting with him next week ...
Andy

Hey Andy I currently own 2 bars in Hollywood! We are selling them as we speak! www.yamashirorestaurant.com & www.magiccastle.com

One of the problems we are encountering is the liquor licence. Transfer in California is issued to an "individule" not a buisness. Do your due dilligence! It can take up to 2 years to successfuly transfer a licence.

First I would check the local laws and current zoning for the buisness as it is now. Then check to see if they have any conditional use permits as well as the last time they were renewed.

Create an LLC and put the buisness licence, and everything involving the club, in that name. Then get insurance for the buisness and alot of extra for you! More than $1M to cover you if the liquor served causes a death! We are currently sued at least once a month for everything under the sun so make sure you have a lawer on your side and your insurance will pay them.

Install a drop safe that is poured in concrete and can not be accessed by the night manager or anyone on staff other than to drop $. Set up a log and double check (two people verification) for all drops and when the safe is opened do not count the money without a very secured bullet proof door or have a security company pick it up and deliver it to the bank where you take the drop log and verify the deposit corisponds to the drop tags in each envelope. We have the person do a duplicate deposit slip and seal the envelope with two people counting the deposit and signing the slip and the envelope. We were robbed of Fri, Sat & Sun night tickets at gun point when the manager was walking from the drop safe to the office! We lost over $55k and the manager sued us for on the job stress!

OK I can go on forever but you get the idea! Feel free to ask me anything you want and I will try to help!

Over the years some of the one's I've seen not make it have made some errors like:

Buying new kitchen equipment. A fortune can be spent on coolers, sinks, stoves, grills, silverware, dishes when used ones can be had for a song. Pictures and eye-candy fixtures cost big bucks too. Sure it's nice to have all new stuff, but a little humility will save you tons. Old tables and chairs can be as good as new ones too.

Not running it like a Chinese restaurant(ever see one go out of business for other than health reasons?). Owner is first in and last out every day with his being the only hand in the cash register.

Your best money makers are the beers on draft. Give away the food (daily happy hours), hold firm on the price of liquor. A 40 lb. box of good wings and some cheese and veggies keep people moving around and are fairly cheap. I agree you have to keep the folks from sitting there thinking about their problems.

You also have to determine if you are a restaurant that sells liquor or a bar that serves food. Different strategies for the 2 scenarios.

I also agree that most come through it with the idea that those '2 happiest days' is an accurate account of their experience.

WOW!

I always knew that us teener drivers knew how to drink beer. But I never knew how many of you knew how to provide beer!

You guys are an incredible store of knowledge. And you guys are incredibly helpful. So why do so many members have their cars on jackstands???

spend the money to keep the place clean man. I ran a bar for years and it was only thing I could do to keep the people I liked coming back.

If it got dirty and smelly all the punks would come down from Camden Town.

I agree! We covered our floors with Aircraft Hanger Epoxy that slopes into the drains and put the rubber bar matts over it. This ment at the end of every night we could pour HOT water over everything and push it all into the drains! Pour bleach into all of the drains every night empty and flush all surfaces with HOT water.

I've been in my share of clubs (in a band), and the ones that seem to do the best do not smell like stale beer and urine!

Can you get the seller to give you a balance sheet for the past few years? At least you could have an idea for operating costs, insurance, etc.

meeting with the owner today ... looks like this might really happen ...
Andy

if you ever need some entertainment for it, let me know.

I love to play drums live, and im sure i could arrange a band to play for you!

good luck thought with the biz andy. A club would be pretty cool, and it seems like you know some of the details about clubs already

My first thought was regarding zoning etc.
Typically an existing owner can continue to do certain things...live music, dancing, number of people allowed inside, etc. You really need to talk to the zoning and business people to ensure that what you assume comes with it, actually does.

The liquor license can be transfered, but certain rights to do certain things do not transfer.

I am not sure if I explained this correctly.
Try this.
The owner has had live music for 25 years...never got the new permit that was required of live music places four years ago. (hypothetical) The law cannot enforce him to do it because he has been doing his business this way for 25 years. The existing owner has non-transferable rights based upon history, and based upon his rights that existed prior to certain laws taking affect. He is granfathered in. He may have certain things that are considered "pre-existing non-conforming" (that is the legal term) under the law.
He is not breaking the law. But he cannot transfer those rights. He may not even know about the new law because it would not affect him.


Some of these rights can be transferred if you actually buy the corporation.
That has its own liability to worry about and I would not suggest that you do that.
Just buy the assets. Someone could come back around with a lawsuit for something that happened years ago against the coroporation, and you are then liable.

A good business lawyer can split those hairs for you.
Buying the assets is the cheapest way to go legally.
Buying the corporation can be done with a pretty significant legal contract that makes the previous owner liable for historic things.
the reality is that if he is dead or broke, another good lawyer can get to your money via the corporation...so I would not so it.

Do a good amount of due dilligence around what you want to do with the place to make sure you can in fact do it. You, the new owners will be required to get the permit, or no live music. You may find these types of issues with food, live music, hours of operation etc.

Expect to put three to four time your initial projections of capital outlay for permitting...new owners get stung for all sorts of new fees.

Rich

This is what I was refering to! Our problem with one of the properties is we had a conditional use permit that my uncle didn't renew in 1994 and they are saying the new owners will have to reapply and be approved before they can conduct buisness! Even then they may be denied!

Check everything twice!!

I lived in Fremont and Milpitas for about 8 years and I would NEVER go to Oakland for anything. Especially at night.

Ahem...said that on page one.....just because I'm a PITA, don't mean I'm ign'rnt....

wussy ...

Oakland is not bad at all, i lived in West-O for 10 years, never had any trouble ...

i'm not afraid of black folks ... i'm dating one ...
Andy

And a lovely one at that .....

GO FOR IT!!!
SHOULDA, COULDA, WOULDA, BS TO HELL