One session and they where mush and just keep get`n worse Thought they would cool and get maybe a little back but NO

However;

A winner in the "Best Title: category!

Brake fade?

That's what I think too.

Oh yeah, now that you say.....

stock brakes rebuilt by Eric shea. Haven't braked with them yet as I'm still putting them on.


sounds to me like you need a good bleeding if your pedal is mushy or maybe your pads are dragging and wearing unevenly.

I seem to recall a thread about this written by someone totally awesome....

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...acing+my+brakes

There we go

Are you already 5-lug? Some vented rotors, Porterfield pads, and fresh fluid ought to fit the bill (if the lines are good).

Track or parking lot racing?

Track ... ya got 'em hot and boiled the fluid. Check rotors for cracks, glazing, blueness. Check for stuck pistons. Bleed brakes (we did it between each track session). Add air ducts to calipers (See Trekkor). Also, ya get 'rm hot enough the rubber seals will go away and you won't have any brakes (and the fluid coming out catches on fire real nice).

Parking lot .... no answer.

I'd check your brake system for leaks, cracked hose, etc. I'd do this before you drove the car again.

Zach

sorry guys I should have been more specific.But yes track session at Portland.brand new Motul fluid all the way through the system and a good bleed ,good pads,good slotted rotors up front, good calipers braided lines I guess i just didn`t expect them to go away so fast ,I didnt think the fluid would boil that easy.it was hot outside about 80+ and i thought once they cooled i would get some back ,but they just keep get`n worse.I agree a bleed is in order.And again sorry for the confusion

Nice pic....

ARent braided lines unsafe for not being able to check your actual line condition?

I read somewhere, i think from sir andy or lapuwali that the braiding can abrade the hose on the inside and you'll never see a failure coming...

how about venting clearance? How about braking less?

WINNER WINNER you get the award because you figured it out great minds think alike....once again guys....... thanks for the input

hair cut MOTHER FUCKER you dig

Heat buildup can cause alot of problems.

* Do you still have the big metal splash guards on? They get hot and hold the heat in your rotors & calipers. like little brake ovens
Take them off if you haven't already.

* Brake coolers? These kits to route air into the center of the vented rotor help alot.

Click to view attachment

* I use ATE Blue and have no problems but change out annually. I've heard MOTUL is good but have no experience with it.

Did you bleed the proportioning valve too? That little gem can give you all sorts of grief if it still has air in it.

Pads. with all of the above, I still had fade with 'good pads' until I switched to Pagid Orange....


Let us know what you find and what fixes your problems...

I had some brake issues recently and it ended up being a frozen piston in one of the front calipers. Was real exciting first high speed lap on practice day!!

good point on the braids! but they dont flex like the stocks so you get better feel in the pedal and they dont bulge under hard brake`n.Well the stop`n things kinda tuff ,go`n 115+ and try`n to stop or at least get down to 30 in 400 feet is tuff with out break`n very hard and do`n that twice a lap at Portland..venting system is stock so i would say not much if any .I will be bleed`n` em tonite...thanks for the input

yes splash guards on but not for long good idea..I did use the blue but just changed to the MOTUL heard it was better?? Pagid orange will be ordered tonite for sure.Do they squeel? , .how can i tell the proportion valve thing if its not bled proper..will the vent kit work with a stock front valance?..Thanks

factory 5 lug.........with slotted rotors, braided lines, and new juice.. all done

I'd probably start chasing the problem in this order.

1. Take off the splash guards.

2. Bleed brakes again. I agree with the post above, you may need to bleed several times if there is any residual moisture, etc.

3. Bleed the proportioning valve. Search here for threads. I use a Motive brake bleeder and tap the proportioning valve lightly to dislodge any bubbles while bleeding the back calipers. Do a search though, I'm sure there are better methods : )

Then try the brakes again. I wouldn't change out the pads or add the coolers right away. See if the above makes an improvement first.

Also, if the brakes work if you keep pumping them. And if the pedal slowly goes down if you apply constant pressure while sitting still, you may have a master cylinder going bad. If you change that out, upgrade to the 19mm unit.

It stops strait and true with one hand on the wheel...no pulling at all.I assume that means it OK ??

You probably don't have a sticking piston then... I had a pretty noticable steering change when the brakes were applied. Helped turn ins going left though!

And from above. The brake coolers do work with a stock valance and the Pagid Orange pads don't squeal in my experience anyway. Great pads, but with the devaluation of the $ they are around $200 an axle!

"They dont (sic) flex like stocks (sic)". You've been reading too much hype on the 'net from people who don't know of what they speak. They probably don't speak/write English, either. The Cap'n

Yes. But they squeal a lot less than you will if the brakes fail...

Will do! cars on block now so i will be chase`n as soon as i get home.I have AX on Saterday....Thanks for all the input I will let you know what i get figured out

Just to throw this out there....but.... if you've got stock 5 lug Carrera brake rotors, and 16" wheels, you can upgrade your front calipers to REAR 993 set. It takes a very small amount of modification to the caliper holes, but that's it, and WOW is the braking great.

Many years ago, I upgraded from stock 4 lug to the 5 lug set up and brakes/rotors from an 84 911. Worked well for a long time but when i went to the bigger engine, it was crap during racing conditions.

One day, we looked at a set of 993 brakes I had and figured "heck, looks like the rear 993 calipers could fit the front of the 914". Viola, EXCELLENT brakes. No fade ever.

I use braided lines, MOTUL fluid (higher bp than blue), rear calipers didn't change from the old Carrera set up, and Hawk blue all the way around. I love them, very high level of confidence in braking. Wanna see? check out some of my in-car video's on www.naroescapemotorsports.com. The 2007 Road Atlanta race video shows me out braking a bunch of cars into 10a, and the Watkins Glen into turn 1.

"SAY WHAT AGAIN!" "I DARE YOU"

oh man, if you want to have some fun with SLJ, then try this link

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/soundboards/play/1862/

dont have your speakers up TOO loud at work. you've been warned...

FYI, I've had the same braided flex lines in my system for 10 years. One of them failed when my frigging car caught on fire! It got melted so I replaced it.
They did help the pedal feel, they did not improve overall braking performance except that they made pedal modulation at limit braking easier.

Factory -6 with 5 lug as you know! but 15 inch fuchs .Pads are good so i think im just gonna try the bleed thing again and find that(per Porsche ning valve) and try that first.I just bought a motor and i dont have tons of $ to spend on stop`n.I know i know its fun too go like hell but man you gotta stop too .I only do about one or two track days a year mostly AXand they work alrite for that.Thanks for your input GOOD LUCK IN CAROLINA...cool video

Holy smokes batman I watch that blue and yellow 6 go in the ditch in Newfoundland(on TV).Lots of damage but the car finished the race.I would give my left U no what to do that race

well didnt alot of stuff fail when it was on fire ..or it failed and then the car cought fire because of the failure??

Your problem is not in your braking system. It is in the "braker"
one or two track events per year. Over braking would be my diagnosis, not a problem with the brakes themselves.
Nothing unusual with someone that does not do very many track events.

just my 2 cents.

Thats a good kit, Or you can get the Home Depot version.

Click to view attachment

Ducting, ducting, ducting...

Fresh good fluid, and REAL track pads, will make a big difference. But the 914's have notoriously poor airflow to the brakes, so get some kind of ducting in there to the front brakes, and you're likely to see your brake fade problems go away for the most part.

Other issues... Pads. "Performance" street pads will NOT survive at the track. If you're going to track the car, get real race pads. Keep in mind that real race pads are not going to be nice and quiet, clean and friendly like street pads. They eat rotors like a kid at a ball park eats dippin' dots, they can squeal like a banshee, and make an awful mess with dust (both from the pads and the rotors). But, they will still be there to save your arse the next weekend while "performance" pads can likely be nothing but a set of backing plates at the end of the first day.

And yes, the stock proportioning valve is a PITA to bleed if it gets air in it.

-Josh2

edit - Oh yeah, and experience... A newer driver to the track will tend to overbrake more often, and that puts a hefty burden on the binders...

Dont use the brakes so much...

People used to race these cars w/ smaller brakes than you have, and survived.

Just get them bled well and we can talk about it on Saturday. I can help you in getting the parts you need. Remember that Tim and I get things at cost. Call me if you have problems bleeding them.

Race914, Josh and Dan have nailed it.

If you simply did a DE event and your brakes are fading (especially M-Calipers with vented rotors) you have some issues. Hate to say it but the issues are probably with that large nut behind the steering wheel!

If you're planning on doing more DE events (and why wouldn't you... it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on) read up on braking techniques and/or ride with a hot 914 driver. You'd be suprised at how little the brakes are used. The other thing mentioned is the AJ cool rotor kits. Those things work wonders. Get some air to them and use the ATE Blue.

You "really" shoudn't have seen brake fade as described at a DE event. Make sure your fluid is brand spanking new and the good stuff and please keep an open mind to braking technique. Maybe Brant can jump in here as he is out racing lap after lap with similar calipers etc. and he should have some "seat time" answers for you.

Hope that helps.

M calipers and vented SC rotors on the front with 914-4 fronts on the rear, T in the rear line (no prop valve). Fresh Pentosin fluid...
3 continual hours of lapping (cherries jubilee charity event) giving rides to hot rodders. This was at Laguna Seca, which is notoriously hard on brakes.

no fade, no need to bleed....

it is not your brakes.

QUE??? QUE????

maybe the Rx doctor could prescribe something for it

oh, you say it's brakes!... my wife seems to think if she flails around enough and hits the "pretend pedal" the car will come to an abrupt emergency stop, from the passenger side no less

who needs to stop 2 p anyway?

seriously, hope you get the info you need

Yep, that was us. Up until that point the car was running perfect..... but....it was the perfect culmination to a lousy week.

If you want to read the long story about what happened, subscribe to Autobahn Ambitions Magazine, and online FREE magazine at www.autobahnambitionmag.com. I wrote a full account of our week in there.

The wreck was only a small part of the story....

I'm kinda late to the party
spent the last 5 days driving a new race track near Dallas
thanks for the invite Eric

I agree with Eric, Dan, Josh, and Greg
the stock brakes are really all you need below 300+ Hp
there is an endless debate, that goes something like this:

brake traction is limited by tire traction
Huge "turbo"-ish brakes can increase the ability to modulate the pedal, but they do not increase tire traction.

In fact they reduce tire traction by adding rotating-unsprung weight (mostly in the form of rotor weight) and actually hurt acceleration and decelaration.

What they can do is provide more of a heat sink for converted energy
but again.... they will not help you stop faster

so if your going 180mph and need to slow down to zero repeatedly, the big brakes will provide the heat sink you need.

most of the 914 drivers I know (the faster ones anyways) get by with small, or even stock brakes. The fastest stock -4 driver I've ever known actually ran stock calipers front and rear. At the time I was green to wheel to wheel in the mid 90's and thought that I needed vented rotors on the rear and huge brakes. Couldn't figure out why he was out braking me.

Turns out that 914's don't need to use the brakes too much. The faster drivers learn to scrub speed by drifting the car in the corner more and not using the brakes as much. This is what Dan, and others are referring too.. it takes a bunch of seat time (or natural talent - something I DO NOT have) to learn this.

I'm running S calipers on the front. they are more than necessary, but I really run them for weight and not because they are bigger. I'm running stock front calipers moved to the rear (no parking brake)

I've been running this set up for 18 years on the track, have never had a single brake fade or over heating incident yet.

- I do run scoops (like the AJUSA ones) pictured they may not really be necessary
- I love the removal of the stock proportioning valve. They are very hard to bleed, but that is my best guess of your problem. Keep bleeding. Its positioned below the motor tin on the firewall. You may need to break open a line on it while your bleeding. I used to make certain the car was raked (higher in rear) and tap it with a mallet while bleeding.
- I echo the track pad necessity of Josh. I personally like the KFP golds for our lighter cars, but track pads work at the higher temperature your experiencing. Street pads get mushy and ineffective when they over heat.
- do remove the splash guards on both the front and the rear
- pull your floor board, pull the rubber grommet on your master cylinder, double check that yours isn't leaking/bad.

Seriously as Eric said, M calipers really are all you need. below 300hp, your car can't achieve a high enough top speed to need more heat sinking capacity.

really really fast cars could theoretically accelerate to that high speed fast enough to not get any cooling. I would think this would be most likely in on a OVAL track with consistent high speeds and regular/repeated corners.

take your tools with you to the track.
if the brakes go out again, get a friend to help you bleed them at the track
I'm guessing that with the heat shields off, and another good bleeding of the proportioning valve that you will have solved the problem. If they still go away after 5 laps, get those race pads.

brant

I agree in theory with Brant, especially if your car is fairly stock engined. One reason for me putting on the bigger brakes is that I run in PCA GT5 class and one of the only ways I can pass is to outbrake someone. cooling and brake fade were never the problem, I started warping rotors because of the heat sink issue. the bigger calipers (I use the same old Carrera rotors, btw) and bigger pads provide a higher level of heat disipation - at least in theory. Plus, I really like the solid brake feel like in my 993.

Then again, a big reason I can't use the smaller brakes is the lack of talent that I need to overcome by harder braking.....

no mention of speed bleeders. you using them? makes the task a whole lot easier.

Me too on the talent thing.I brake hard in a strait line and then turn in.I dont think i could do the drift thing to scrub speed with out tons of track time.track people dont like it when you spin and thats what i would be do`n (safety reasons) so to make this short a sweet ..thanks to all for the ideas and input i will take it all into consideration and make the brakes better ..Again thanks to all of you ..I gotta go P

quick 'hi Jack' - where can one purchase that sweet looking duct kit - NOT the HD version!

soooo it appears to have been sticking front calipers.took the pads out and work the pistons in and out and seems to be better.but still dont feel quit right .Gonna bleed them again..power bleeder used the first time.old fashion way the second.still work`n on the issue.I`d like them rock hard

I see you've finally stopped to P... now you're just pissing up a rope.

Rebuild them and be done with it. Tain't rocket science.

Let me know if you need some rebuild kits and moral support.

agreed
bleeding again won't fix your sticking caliper

fix it once
fix it right.

p.s. after 15 - 20 years, I can guarantee you that bigger brakes aren't going to make you faster. seat time and driving will do it though.

AJ-USA

I concur!! Im on it like flys on pooo