So my buick 215 is getting to hot. I wasn't sure how accurate my gage was. On my way home from Parts obsolete swap meet on sunday it was in the mid 90's. My engine temp got up to 230 but seemed to be doing okay. Then it started cutting out on me. I pulled over to let it cool a it. After a good half hour I drove the rest of the way home. Engine temps were still close to 230 though. I have an old school setup I think.

My question is what radiator setup are you using? Also what engine temps are usual for you? Just trying to see which way to go. I'd like to make it better without forking out another grand for renegades new setup right now. Suggestions please!

When you build a V-8 car, one of the most critical components is the radiator. Although I know Renegade's radiator is a cool thou...I've heard it is quite good. I had a 3 core dual pass custom Fluidyne in my car for about 4 years until it gave up the ghost and started leaking (maybe stress from racing). I really liked that radiator because it kept my motor at 175 degrees on the run and no more than 185-190 in rush hour traffic on a 95 degree humid summer day! I couldn't get Fluidyne to make me another one because they quit making custom radiators so I had Howe Racing make me a 2 core dual pass radiator. It keeps the engine at 178 degrees on the run and 185-195 in rush hour traffic (hot day). My suggestion is to spend whatever money is necessary due to the fact that the radiator is such a key component on a water cooled 914. You have over 20' of hoses and a water pump that was never designed to throw water that far. If you have a weak sister radiator...you will curse yourself a thousand times! A thousand times for every dollar you didn't spend on the proper set up. If you want to fabricate your own fan set up and mounting set up as I did, You can save a few hundred dollars by having a reputable place make you a custom radiator to fit perfectly between your headlight buckets. PM me for more details and good luck with your car! Kudos for building a car with a light weight all aluminum V-8!!!

Bill

Post pictures of lines, water pump, overflow tank, radiator, inlet/outlet, ext.

The only way for us to determine.

I"ll get some pics tommorow! Thanks

If you're hitting 230 degrees driving in the mid 90's something isn't right and I'd rule out everything else out before replacing the radiator. As Bill said, cooling a V8 in a 914 can be tricky because of the limited frontal area and long hoses.

You need to check for air in the system, timing being way off, and for a lack of airflow. It's also worth checking to make sure the overflow system is working properly. I was running a potent 350 V8 with the old style Renegade system and it did surprisingly well even here in Vegas. I did get it up to 230 once, but I was stuck in traffic and it was close to 120 at the time.

The newer all aluminum Renegade system is really efficient and has two high flow fans. It's a complete system with shrouding, relays, etc. It isn't cheap at just under a grand, but you'd spend quite a bit trying to duplicate it. One way or another you definitely want to get it taken care of before you cook the motor. An ounce of prevention.....

Air in the lines, coolant mix not right, high spot that gives you an air bubble....lots of places to look at before going to another radiator. I think Renegade has a trouble shooting guide on their site.

I noticed the same thing on Saturday, it was close to 90 deg ambient and my car which never rises above 200 jumped to 225 in town slow traffic. It seemed to hold at 225 and the radiator did its job, once I hit the highway it dropped to its normal 200.
I did not bild the car but it has a Rod Simpson kit with a 4 core dual pass aluminum radiator, I think thats what they call it. Rod still has a web site up, with a tech line for questions and advice. I am suprised with a 1 1/4 supply and a 1in return it moves enough coolant to remove the required BTU's, it works though.
I did biuld a V-6 914 many years ago on a buget and tried several junk yard type radiators. I was finally able to keep it cool in the LA heat with an all copper 4 core radiator I bartered for, that came out of a super sport stock car, sorry no help on that one. The radiator fit between the headlight buckets and layed on an angle so the bottom was close to the back wall of the front trunk, basicaly it was big and Heavy. It also had a tight shroud with an electric fan that moved a but load of air.
It is also important to have a expansion tan at the highs point to catch any ait pockets along with a solid overflow and catch tank
I will be at the WCR in two weeks you can pick everyones brain there.

Good luck

Tony

Steve and the Dr. are right. Please check all the cooling components and their functionality before jumping the gun and buying a new radiator. I have noticed on my set up that the fans are working more often than not... I'll notice they are are on and running at freeway speeds on occasion. I have done many hours of testing and learning through trial and error. One thing I have noticed is if I let the car sit and idle w/out the fans hooked up...my engine will overheat and blow the cap off my overflow tank spewing coolant everywhere. This will happen within 8-10 minutes of idling. With the fans hooked up, the car can idle until the gas runs out of the tank at 185-190 degrees on a 90 + degree day. Those fans need to work and be designed to move a lot of CFM. Also, air in the lines can be troublesome in a car with 20' of coolant lines. Renegade told me they drill a small 1/8" hole in the thermostat housing to allow coolant to bypass the closed thermostat when filling. Also, a breather on the radiator is a very good idea. I even back fill through the breather when I'm filling a dry system. I would bleed the system first, check the coolant mixture, then check the condition of the water pump and lines, then think about replacing the radiator...in that order. If you find the radiator to be your problem, buy a good one and be done.

Hope this helps,

Bill

I agree, if it was working before, what changed? Check for air in the system.

Mine runs too cool on the freeway 160-170 like Bills car. I did get to 240 once when we were traveling to the WCC and got stuck in construction traffic in the dessert between Vegas and Cali. But As soon as we could roll 10 mph the temp would drop.

Oh, and a spike in temp isn't always going to cause you to over heat. If you don't loss coolant your probably ok. I would check for air in the system.

Air bubbles have historically been my only problem using a mix of conversion parts.

I will flush the system & check my water pump. My timing is off a little too so I've got to do that too. I'm going to take it to my buddy's shop so I can make sure I get it right. I don't even own a timing light anymore.

I can't really gage if this was overheating before. I've only had it 4 months. Most of which was spent in the air. Clutch was slipping badly so I really didn't drive it much before. Actually I just redid my clutch & it is still slipping. I bought a kennedy stage 2 PP with the 200mm clutch. Still slips under much of a load. I'm wondering if I have some oil leak that is getting in there? Or is my pressure plate just not strong enough .

I do have all of next week off to get it ready for WCR. SO I should be able to get it all ironed out. I will be trailering it the 4+ hours up there anyway. I've got some parts to haul & I definately don't trust it to make the whole trip.

Air in the system is a big issue for these cars. Also..if the thermastat has not been changed after it sat for a while...change it.....Mine was over heating and I changed the thermastat and the radiator cap, burped it..no issues..

Michael

Here are a few pics of the setup. Shoot I think I replaced a thermostat in high school once? I can't even remember where the dang thing sits in the system. I'm hoping my buddy with the shop isn't taking next week off. That will screw with my plan no doubt. I'll have to bone up on flushing my radiator if I have to do it myself

man...is that radiator pointed down and where the AC condensor used to be?? If thats the case, you need some CFM to cool that baby down.....especially where I live from all the radiated heat off the asphalt!

Also any better pics of your overflow setup? The thermastat should set in the housing of the elbow where your radiator hose enters the block...


Michael

It is angled down for sure. It basicaly starts under the bumper. Just the valance is cut. I definatley want to get a better radiator setup. Just not enought time before WCR. I'd like to get it servicable for all the drives. I can replace the whole setup later. Don't have the cash to do a complete new setup right now anyway.

Errr.. ouch...

I hate to say it, but your best option is to change to a proven setup like Rennegade's.

That setup is not the best way to go about it. When the air temps are at 100 deg the cement in bumper to bumper will be like 120 or so and the radiator is pulling from that extreme heat situation. You also dont have optimum flow at speeds either as the air will take the least difficult way around.

Best advice I can give is to do a system flush, check for lean running of carbs, check spark plug gaps and timing, move your fill tank higher, and save your pennies.


You should also switch to a puller fan VS a pusher fan so that the physical fan does not block the airflow either. Maybe run a small pusher as a backup for bumper to bumper. Also add a can of Water Wetter by redline, dont run antifreeze (its less efficient than pure water), and run a higher pressure cap(19lbs?). Oh and change your oil to a synthetic with a good filter (mobil 1 is good)

What does the front look like? May need to add some kind of air grabber to force the air under the car..

Less stress you put on the engine the smoother and cooler it will run.... Ask Jake Raby...


Good luck!

Here is a good way to figure out if its your radiator. The shop that built mine told me this. He said its not steadfast, but as a general rule, if it does not get hot in traffic, its probably the right size, if it gets hot when you are on the freeway its probably an airflow issue. If the temp creeps up over time on the freeway its probably a size/effectiveness issue of the radiator.

Here is my setup, cost me $275 plus the fans.

Since it looks like you are pulling exclusively from the bottom, you are depending solely on the fan for airflow, even on the freeway. The air needs to come from the front to create the proper pressure drop across the radiator, a ram air effect. Without shrouding on the fan, the corners are not being cooled by the fan either.

I know my timing is off some. Wouldn't be surprised if my carb is not quite up to snuff either. I will start with flushing my radiator & replacing the thermostat. Assuming my water pump is god I will move onto timing & checking my carb out. I will definately be replacing my current setup eventually. I think I will end up with Renegades newest setup. It's a proven system & I am just not that confident in my ability to customize a setup. I'll see what my buddy with the shop says. I'll show him some current setups & we'll see what he thinks. I will definately show him this link.

Kind of strange on Renegades site I can't find their radiator setup at all???

COOLING SYSTEM
Renegade offers an excellent, custom made, cooling system. This system is very complete system and ready to install. Typical normal operating temperatures will stay well below 200 degrees even in Vegas Corvallis type heat.

$995 CUSTOM ALUMINUM RADIATOR ASSEMBLY: Installs in front trunk compartment. Includes a custom built, all aluminum radiator, high performance dual fan assembly with shrouding, pre-bent aluminum duct work, and all mounting hardware; partially assembled and pre-wired for ease of installation. Our radiator has proven itself as an excellent performer, even in extreme weather conditions. Properly installed, this radiator will keep your car running cool (180 - 210 deg.) guaranteed! If you have a radiator system from one of our competitors, this is a great cure and replacement. ( pictures )

Anytime anyone gets a 914 V8 or V6 or?? and they experience overheating problems in the summer months, the radiator setup we see is very very similar to the one Jamie is running.
The first post is from someone with V8 experience is"get a Renegade setup" . And it is probably the single best purchase you can make for your V8 914.
Check your thermostat to be sure you don't have a winter temp one in place. ANd you might want to get a direct thermostat housing temp gauge. It is built into the thermo housing itself and you can get a direct reading.
CCLIN2008THEYEAROFTHEV8

This seems to work well for me...its easy to modify to.... the fans run either single or in tandem....I have no problems...EXCEPT when I have air in the system...

Yours breathes from the front, the other one seems to be exclusively from the bottom

Mark

Was there a particular radiator you got? Or did you just measure between the headlight buuckets? If there is a certain car that has just the right one I might try to get it. I'm sure I could get a little better setup for WCR. My buddy's shop is right next to a junk yard. I do want a dual fan system with the fans on the inside pulling the air thru. I kind of hate to cut up a nice front bumper for it though.

I've got Mark(computer4kids) coming up for WCR & staying at my place. He just did his bumper & it turned out nice. So maybe with his help I will cut out the section in the bumper . What did you guys use to do yours? Plasma cutter?

One other question. My buick 215 v8 comes thru my firewall quite a bit. Would running an electric water pump save me much room up front? Also are they very effective?

Jamie,
a plasma cutter would be nice since they would literally cut the bumper like butter, but not necessary. If you decide to cut your bumper, it can be done with some real simple tools.

Masking tape and tape measure to create the shape you want...the tape makes for a nice guide when cutting as well.

If you want rounded corners, then a drill with a metal hole saw.

A jigsaw with a couple of metal fine tooth blades (may break one).

File to smooth all the cuts

If you want a grill, then pick one up at the junkyard that you like. It will need to be somewhat flexible to curve to the inside of the bumper.

Alternatively, pickup a piece of metal grill like the one I used from Orchard Hardware ($25). I used a cutting tool (air) to cut to size and then tack welded on the inside of the bumper.

I would be glad to bring any of these items or tools up if you need them...just let met know. Do you have an air compressor? Welder?

If I had a bumper close, I would do all the work here and just bring it to you. My roller's front bumper is tweaked, not worth the effort. We have a junkyard in town but they think their stuff is gold...don't even know if they have one.

Depending on your tools, a couple hours and you should be ready to roll.

I do have an air compressor but no welder or plasma. Although I can borrow both from a guy I work with. I kick myself at times like this for leaving those 3 bumpers down at G & R for recycling. I may try to track an extra down at parts obsolete today. Depends on how things go with my car at the shop?

My engine doesn't protrude as far as yours into the cabin. I have a small cut out for the front pulley and thats it. I have an electric fuel pump and I have my altenator on the opposite side. Not sure why yours goes so far into the cab. No particular radiator, PO just measured and set it up. I have just adjusted the thermastat for the fans.

It saves the room that pump sticks forward, minus the length of some elbows you will have to incorporate with the timing cover. I have a Meziere remote mount 55gpm water pump and it works fine.

http://www.meziere.com/ps-1150-1118-wp337s.aspx

holy crap, they have rocketed in price! Anyway, you want the higher flow and don't want the 30-33gpm pumps like CSI and so forth. Understand that the stock water pump will flow a small amount at idle but a fair amount at higher rpm.

And that thing protrudes a LOT. Many of the V8 kits set the trans back a bit or have a custom trans mount or adapter to move it back a couple inches. I suspect they installed that at stock trans location...

The transmision is in the stock location. I may look into moving it back a bit. I would really like to get the firewall back to stock if possible. I'll be doing some research on that & the different electric water pumps available. I am going to look into some radiators tommorow. I did get my car timed today & it was advanced a good 5degrees. It did better once I had my car tuned but still creeped up to 220 eventually.

Jamie,
I can't remember...
Is the gauge that you are using...do you think it's accurate. Electric or mechanical? I'll bring by laser temp gauge so we are sure of the temps both at the engine and radiator.

Well, we're packed and ready to head your way in the AM. Will probably be seeing you by noon on Wednesday...but who knows--I'm traveling with my sister in law and wife. Sister in law likes to drive 90 and my wife likes 60

Sweet! I was going to have you measure your radiator. If you happen to get on tonight or in the morning before you leave. Measure it for me & give me a call. I am going to go by a racing place tommorow to see what they have available. Also my car does not have a themostat on the engine at all. Not sure where my gage is getting te temp? Cylinder head temp maybe?

If I don't have luck with finding a radiator I am going to at least get mine set more upright & add the cuts in the front to allow more air to come thru

Some dimensions to think about

J - I dunno your budget and skill level, so bear with me here, but maybe check out Ron Davis or sincerely consider the Renegade radiator kit mentioned before.

Ron Davis makes the Renegade radiators but won't specifically sell it to you direct. That said, RD makes a bunch of off-the-shelf dual pass rads and will have one that should fit IIRC. Get the tallest one you can fit IMO and lay it forward - dual pass, 2-core 1" capillary minimum. RD will set you back about $850 for a good dual pass with integrated fan shrouds and dual fans. Then you will want to fab up some sheet alum to seal off the radiator to your inlet hole. That is the question of fab cuz I believe the Renegade kit is right at $1K and has all of that pre-made and ready to install, so it really is a pretty slick kit.

Griffin are good, cheaper rads but I can't remember if they have a short enough rad to fit, even laid forward, in the width you will be limited to, but if they have something in the 16" height range or less, it will be cheaper than RD BUT will not have a shroud and fans, which gets back to your fab skill level.

Any time you can make the alum shrouding yourself you will save money, but you will only save it there. The rads are pricey no matter what and the fans are what they are, just shop around as it is cheaper from Summit and such than RD and Renegade of course with the middleman markup.

I am going to pony up the money to Renegade eventually. I just can't do it right now. So I am hoping to just get mine working better. My fan does not seem to pull alot of air thru at idle. Would it help at all to add another fan on the inside to help pull more air thru? I may still try to find something at the junk yard. Just something that I can put more upright. I'll add the openings I need to behind & in the bumper too. I've got Mark here tommorow & he just did the cuts for his renegade radiator.

So I will get those ready & we'll just see. Always a chance this just ain't going to cut it for WCR. Which will just flippin SUCK . Still I'm giving it my best shot. Maybe with Mark's help we can get it working

Jamie

If you feel you don't wish to drive your car I may be willing to let you drive it at the WCR. I know I won't be able to be there most of the time as my little one to be is really not wanting to work with us on this one Let me know. I hope you figure everything out though.

I appreciate the offer Jon & who knows. I'm hoping to get it cooling enough to be okay. A little pissed overall with the whole thing. Just running out of time. I did however get my wheels sorted out. I found a set of 16x7 fuchs with black centers & polished lips. So at least my wheels will match

JRust,

You might also try Desert Hybrids in AZ. David is a very forthcomming person, and will not try to up-sell everything. Here's a link to his site where her discusses the cooling system (among other things). Being in Arizona, his cooling challenge is as demanding as any. He makes his system work with a GM radiator.

http://home.earthlink.net/~adbuch/id34.html

I am using an AFCO #80133N aluminum dual pass ASA racing radiator (with cap delete) for my V8 conversion. Though you'll have to fabricate the mounting and ducting, the radiator was only $229 two years ago.

Andys

I think my gage is off. We did a few things today. One was move my radiator fan from the outside & being a pusher. To the inside & being a puller. Huge difference with air flow. My gage says 230 while the laser reader it stayed at 190. That was checking the radiator all hoses leading to & from the engine. The engine was maybe 10 degrees hotter than the radiator. I am going to add a mechanical thermostat tommorow. SO I think I will be okay for the WCR. Keep your fingers crossed

Slight update! I blew a head gasket at WCR. My radiator also took a crap. I replaced with one I found at shucks. Really just a temperary fix. I am looking into different electric water pumps. Along with getting a better suited radiator. Still can't afford Renegades so I am looking into other options.

Your other option really is getting a good aluminum (best option is a 2 pass like posted above) radiator, and pulling your air from the front. I used a skill saw type air tool to cut mine mainly and a die cutter.

Keep in mind that the rule of thumb is you need 2x as much escaping area as you need for the air going into the radiator (IE your hole for the radiator inlet 2x bigger than the radiator outlet)

Make sure you have your radiator properly shrouded, or else your system will not work properly. Give it a really good fan or two, and make sure your water pump is good and your lines are clean.

Bleed the system good!


Good luck

Will do Andrew. I have been looking into it for quite a while now. This is the first I've heard about the inlet being twice as large as the outlet. My cutout for the outlet may be to large. I will measure it after I have made my cutouts in front. Picture of others setups always help Thanks for the tips as always

Sounds like a bit of confusion here to me. Re-read Andrews response. Put your away!

Oops I got it backwords! Definately makes more sense now

Woops! I had conflicting info in my post...

2x bigger outlet than inlet..

Thanks for the clarification Mark!

Good luck!

This might help a little

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...14097&st=80

So I finally ordered my Radiator setup from Renegade Hybrids. Figures they don't have any in stock so I am a couple weeks out . Still I am excited to get the system & get my car cooling right. Wish I could have sprung for the system sooner but such is life.

Scott was also able to help me with some other things. One I ordered their tranny blocks to move things back a bit. I also had some indepth talks about my buick 215 & going with an electric remote water pump. I think I am going to leave my stock one in place if the new radiator fixes my problem that is. I am going to start planning on a LS1 engine down the road. It is lighter than my current motor & a good 100hp more in stock form . Probably a ways down the road but I am going to keep my eyes open for a deal on an LS1 motor now. I'll post some pics when I get my new radiator installed. Although I need to find a section of my front trunk to fix my current cutout for the radiator. Anyone have one?

Sounds like the right thing to do. Its much much easier, for me at least, to have a car that is working, and continually improving upon it.
Now you can get it going and work out all the bugs and when you go to the LS, its "simply" a matter of the engine swap, the rest should be good to go.

Mark

don't limit yourself to just the LS1. Consider the slightly larger LS2 as well - can probably get one out of a Vette by the time you are ready, do a simple swap or go through it and bone stock = 400 HP and 400 ft-lbs. Whether you go LS1 or LS2 you will want a better trans, so just "go big or go home" hahaha and go with the LS2.

Or take the block, swap the sleeves out and bore to 4.125" That is how they did 427s before GM came out with the LS7 engine - just re-sleeve and add a 4" stroke crank. Instead I would leave the stroke what it is and go 4.125" bore.

Just dreamin' a little for ya - no charge, on me

Honestly I am happy at the 2-220hp I get now. Really more than I need anyway. Car flies the way it is & I don't need to go to crazy. I don't mind bumping up to the 300+ range that seems crazy enough for me. Who knows though

By the time I get my cooling under control & really get to drive my car? Then maybe I will want to go a little crazy with my next engine. Either way I am just glad to have my radiator coming

Hey the Renegade set-up is a great choice, you will have no overheating problems now...
I say take your time, I think the "LS" series engines are a good choice, I would go that way if I had to do it again! Keep us posted!!!

Hey drivability I just watched your engine video! That is one sweet rear trunk setup. Did you fab that yourself? Very cool