So even tho I'm still healing up after my rotator cuff surgery, and have at least another month to go before I can even consider picking up a tool to pick up where I left off on my resto, I was rather curious how some of you other guys have gone about repairing your hellholes.

What I had accomplished up until my surgery was I had cut some scrap 2x6 lumber and cut the curves in it to get a general template of the curve from the firewall up to the top half of the engine shelf. Then, where it makes a steep upward slope toward the engine, I used 3/4" plywood as a template for that.

I'm planning to use 24 gauge steel for the repair. I was just wondering if there might have been a better way of forming the shape of the hole. Oh, and was there a drain hole there by chance? Even if there wasn't originally, I'm thinking I might add one... it only seems right.

Thanks!

24 gauge is much thinner than the original metal. When I mic my body sheet metal it comes out a 19 gauge ( i just use 18). For the side rails of the "frame" under the motor mounts (the longs) I would be using at least 16 gauge. Yes there is a drain hole, but it is not on or through the long. It is part of that damn metal that forms a dam just to the inside of the long. Look at the drivers side mirror image of the hell hole and you should see it. Typically that hole gets plugged by a few leaves the the battery acid can't escape the top of the long and the acid eventually create a new way out. Your drain hole is just so rusted out its hard to see where it was.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=87896
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=86910

If you want to save time and make things easier on yourself then buy the
appropriate rust repair panels that are available for the hell hole. I made a
lot of my own pieces and I think in the end this took much longer and did not
yield as nice looking a result as if I had used repro pieces. Trying to make
your own patches fit is frustrating and very time consuming. If all you need
to do is close a hole on the top of the long them make your own. If you have
to repair the whole inside or outside of the curved part of the long then get
the repair panel.

John

I've noticed I'll have to face this hell hole repair soon. I think it will be necessary to access inner long damage first though. Is there a preferred method that doesn't require a lot of cutting?

TIA,

Thanks for the advice/links Wil- lots of help there. And I'm lucky enough that there isn't any repair on the longs to be done. Just a good cleaning and then fresh primer/paint will do it. I also realize 24 gauge is light for the repair work, but there's a reason for that- it's easier to bend and form; and since there's no real load bearing on the hell hole, I don't see why it can't be used.



I don't have a problem with the time and frustration of making my own repair panel. That's half the fun of it. I'm just trying to prepare for when the time is right to take off with this project again.

Thanks for the tips guys.

You really need to re-think using 24 gauge. It is way to thin. No the hell hole does not directly carry much load but you need to realize it DOES carry some l;oad. When any load is exerted it transfers to surrounding panels. That said the 16 gauge " structure " beneath that skin is NOT a solid peice itself. It is a conglomeration of several pieces bent and spot welded together. Another issue you will face is welding the 24 to the 16 gauge, sure it can be done but it will be harsher on the 24 gauge and you will not end up with a nice looking patch. What you will have is a lumpoy ass patch that can be spotted a mile away. Just food for thought.

I wouldn't even consider anything less than 18 gauge on this. 18 is not that hard to bend/form and the hell hole is a structural area (otherwise Porsche wouldn't have used corrugated double wall construction in this area). I also agree that it is going to be much harder to weld 24 gauge.

Get a piece of 18 guage "drawing steel" from Restoration Design or similar.

It is rolled out in two directions during manufacturing and is easier to
bend than regular sheetmetal.

I got a few pieces and use it whenever I need to make something with a
lot of curves to it.

John

This statement is just so wrong!!

The area of the hellhole sees a bending stress due to just the weight of the car.

Plus, you have to think about the fact that an automotive structure is dynamic! The forces change as you go over bumps or around corners. Any twist in the chassis will change the amount of the stress and also it's location.

Don't use 24 gauge steel! The gauge the factory used in that area is 18 gauge.

18 isn't that hard to form.

Here are links to how I formed patch panels using 18 guage with just typical tools found in any garage.

rust diary page 2

rust diary page 3


Here is another way to talk you out of using 24 gauge; When you are going to sell the car to the next individual, he asks about hellhole repair work. You tell him that you used a thinner than factory steel just because it was easier to form. I don't think it would go over well.

Wes Vann

Okay, fair enough, I get it- the hellhole has load bearing capacity to it. I'd just like to remind everyone this is my first teener and obviously I didn't think load capacity was an issue. Obviously I have not yet cut out the chunk of the old panel to be replaced so I haven't gotten a good look at the complete structure of the hole.

But as far as the welding aspect is concerned, that's not an issue for me. I spent 2 years of my life making a living as a welder for a water filtration company, and this wouldn't be the first time I've had to weld much thinner steel to a thicker base. It was actually an almost daily process for me just because of how the filter units were designed and manufactured. It's really not that hard to do if you keep the voltage set correctly and if you're stick welding. Yes with MIG or TIG it's a royal pain, but stick (or arc for you old schoolers) welding really makes it an easier process.

So I'll dig around to see if I can find a chunk of 18 gauge. If not, I have enough scrap 24 that I'd be able to weld two pieces together flat and create a thicker piece of material to work with.

Again, thanks for the advice.

I'm confused. You say that you don't mind fabbing and forming your own parts 'cause that's the fun of the hobby, but you want to use thinner metal 'cause it's easier. OK, which is it? Fun or easier. I've watched it happen over and over; people ask for suggestions, then give reasons why their way is better, or easier, or they don't really need to follow all those steps because....................(fill in the blank). What are you looking for when you ask for help; information or approval?

I don't have welding skills (my bad) so I can't speak to the specifics, but I'm skilled enough to know that the wealth of information available on this site is a resource to be tapped, not contested. More listening, less defending.

Doing it right is it's own reward.

Good luck with your project, now, get back to

Look around for a local sheet metal supplyer. Usually they'll have some small scrap metal around that they may give to you. I got enough 18 guage steel to do the repairs on my car in exchange for a box of doughnuts for the shop workers.

Wes,

What kind of welder are you using to do the spot welds - details please?

TIA,

The whole car is pretty much 18 gauge.
Dont use thinner, it just wont last.

24 gauge is really hard to weld....its disapears while you weld...

For the forming part of the project, make up wooden bucks out of MDF...
its super easy to shape, it holds an edge perfectly and you can beat on it with a hammer to form the metal to shape.

the hell hole is really just 5 or six pieces of straight metal with small bends...nothing to complex.
the hardest part about it is getting in there with tools.

If you are any good at welding, cut out the firewall in that area, fix the hell hole and buttweld the firewall back in...


Rich

I've got a Miller MM130 mig. I use an argon / co2 mix in the bottle. It runs on 110 (no requirement to re-wire the garage for 220)

I've had it for at least 5 years, spent about $600 for it (including regulator and bottle).

It's been one of the best "tool" investment I've made.

I've had to replace a couple parts on it, but had no problem getting what I needed at the local welding supply shop. (any moving part wears out!)

Wes Vann

Sorry if I came off as being agitated or trying to contest the advice or defend my own way of doing it. That wasn't my intention.

I'm just trying to find a middle ground between fun and easier here, because truth be told this project has gone a lot farther and taken a lot more time than I've intended. For as much as I enjoy restoring cars, when a project goes farther than I mean it to I tend to get anxious and try to take short cuts wherever possible.

Not that I'm saying I'm just trying to rush it done and get rid of it- I completely agree that there's a lot of knowledgeable enthusiasts on these boards and that they're advice is worth heeding; and that doing it right is very rewarding. But like I say, I'm just getting frustrated with the car. And I think I'm getting even more frustrated right now because I've been holed up in this f**king apartment for the past 4 weeks waiting on my shoulder to heal and I've got another 3 to go; meanwhile a car that's been occupying my dad's garage for the past year has just been sitting there for almost 3 months (haven't been able to work on it before my surgery either) because there's nothing I can do with it without killing pains in my shoulder.

So, I'm sorry if that's how I came off- sometimes I think I know more than I do. I'll get it done proper.

It's all good. I think I was venting about another recent thread at the same time.

Hope your shoulder heals soon so you can work out those frustrations on some 18 gauge.