Howdy Everyone,

I had a thought about upgrading my front 914 suspension with a 911 one. I was wondering from those people who have made this change, was it worth it? Would you do it again? What would you do different? Can you -actually- feel the difference when you drive?

Send us some pictures. They speak 1000 words. = )

Thanks team!

Eric

Off of a 911SC; they bolted right in.

What I would do different is get the whole thing, not just the strut tower assemblies. I'd make sure and get the under body sway bar and a-arms.

I'll have to ask my jackstands if it was worth it, I'm not sure they've noticed a difference in handling.

I'm going to throw this out just to be a trouble maker;

Changing over to a 911 front suspension will make your car handle worse!

Why?? Well they weigh more and you really want to reduce the unsprung weight as much as possible.



That said, and the flames started, I'm putting a 79 911SC front suspension on my 914. I wanted the larger brake calipers, vented rotors, and five lug hubs. I've heard that the selection of 911 torsion bars is better. And it came with the underbody sway bar.

Wes V

Depending on how large of front brakes you are planning the changing to the 911 front to get the 3.5" struts may not be required. Many people will make the change to get vented rotors larger brakes. One option is to use the aluminum Brembo brakes which use the same pads as the BMW calipers, and either a 4 or 5 lug billet hubs depending on the rims you are running. This can be done in a matter of hours and you keep the stock set up.

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Michael;

That really does look sweet, while still retaining the 4 lug.

What rotor are you using with that set-up?

Wes

Yes, this is very interesting as I thought I couldn't get a vented front rotor without going with 5 bolt.

Please, more info!!!

For 5 lug conversion, bigger brakes & rotors, heaver torsion bars, underbody swaybar, usable front bilsteins, aluminum cross member - it was worth it for me.

To piece all that together a different way is more time and/or cost, IMO.

But if you are otherwise stock, just buy the hubs!

You can and it isn't too hard to do. However, you can get a whole 911 set up for less than the billet hubs. With the 911 suspension you will get more torsion bar choices, aluminium cross member, five lug hubs, and big brakes. All this can be had for about 500-600 if you look hard. If you want to do the billet hubs you will be spending about 1500 for everything you need to do it right.

I am using the Billet hubs that are sold on another 914 website and Eric Shea's rebuilt aluminum Brembo caliper. If you look in the member vendor section you can see his discussion on the M caliper upgrade. The rotors I am using are the ones required with the billet hubs. They are standard for a 911SC built from 1978-1983. Someone who was thinking of going to a five lug set up could use the 5 lug billets and the Brembo calipers for the front. I think this is an easy solution unless you are in a constant state of upgrade and will then be looking for bigger brakes again. These Brembo have plenty of power for me and I switch to a less aggressive pad than I was running prior to installing these. I think they would be more than enough stopping power for most people if used with a Porterfield or similar pad. I also like the bling factor they add when poking out of the wheel.

Brembo caliper link

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When installing the 911 crossmember, you'll have to make some bracket/supports for it as seen in picture.....

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Is there anyone selling a package deal for that price? I would love to get that deal. = )

So you think its worth the change? Even if it handles worse (per the two or three back)?

Thanks again.

WTB: 911 Front Complete Suspension = )


Eric

Wow. So it doesnt go in nicely? You have to weld brackets to the bottom of your car? I didnt realize that. Is that for all years or specific years (911 and 914)? Are there concerns about flex on deep turns with this setup?

Interesting. Thanks for the info. More pictures would be GREAT!

Eric

I purchased a complete set-up from DC automotive http://www.dcautomotive.com/ , very helpful and will know what you are doing if you tell them 914 to 911 suspension conversion. My kit came from a 911SC, included front struts, brakes/ 5 lug rotors, cross member, sway bar, torsion bar, A-arms, steering, everything. I am in the process of painting them up. The only thing you need to keep as I understand it is your stock steering column, the 911 column is short. Don't have it installed yet but I am sure it will be worth it.

What was the cost of the front suspension? Private reply is fine. = )

Thanks for the info.

Eric

Got my '83 SC front end on ebay for $625. I drove to Chicago and pick it up the seller was not happy. He just figured that he would get more for it and probably would have, but no one wanted to pay the shipping on a heavy bulky item.
As far as the difference, steering is better and so is the stopping power.
I did nothing to this unit, it swapped out perfectly with no modifications. I did have to rebuild the calipers.
Our 914s were designed for these types of modifcations. It just went along with the 6 conversion that I had been doing on my car.....it's great to see those drilled rotors peeking through the Fuchs. Just adds to the overall state of the car, now or if I ever sell.

Seems like it was about $600, can not put my hand on the receipt.

I recently purchased my 79 911 SC "complete" front suspension and paid $450 for it.

Now keep in mind that price was for something that is "re-buildable".

It came with the aluminum cross-member and had the "brackets" that a prior poster said had to be fabricated.

Other than swapping the steering coupler, I could have just bolted it in. But boy, would that have been a mistake.

Think of that $450 price as purchasing a "core". A lot of things that need to be done would have been needed had I wanted to keep the original 914 suspension.


(and that comment about the handling being worse was just to have fun)

Wes

So what year 911 front suspension will bolt onto the 914 and specifically which year is best?

Here's my $450 ebay purchase.

911 Carrera front end includes a-arms, torsion bars, aluminum crossmember (with horn attached), sway bar, struts, rotors, A-calipers (3.5 inch bolts), tie rods, and steering rack. Seller thought it was from a mid to late 80's 911.

Rear end includes swing arms, complete axles w/inner/outer CVs, 4-to-5 lug converted hub and rotor, 914-4 caliper.

The front end conversion was perhaps the most fun job I've done on the 914. Including a 19mm master brake cylinder, the front end swap took about 4 hours and just bolted right in.

Here's another pic of brackets. I didn't have the ones from a 911, so made some.

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I've heard that the sheet metal shield for the rack doesn't bolt up properly to the aluminum crossmember. Is that correct?

Yes, that is correct. I made brackets for the front, but it was too low in the front of the pan and hit the pavement on dips so I removed it.

Yes. Very much so.

I've got a complete '85 Carrera frontend and Carrera brakes and rotors in the rear. The added springrate in the front due to larger torsion bars and the front sway bar together with the turbo tie rods made a huge difference in how the car feels ...
Andy

you shouldn't have to mod anything at all it is a bolt in upgrade........all interchangeable except for sway bar. 911 a arms are slightly different in that they have a tab for the sway to go thru....ray

I have a front end from an 89 SC and my crossmember looks different than the one in the pics, I checked the bolt position on mine and it is different, should not need the brackets. I wonder if that one is from a Turbo??

If you want a complete front end from an '83 (bolt and go) you'll have to drive to Riverside, CA to get it. Came from a running car. Bilstein shocks. $600

On mine, I unbolted the stock 914 suspension and left the rack in place. Rolled it out from underneath the car and rolled the 911 suspension in place (minus the rack) and bolted it all up.

Made the car handle wonderfully ... flat as hell around corners.

And yes, the stock 914 underpan will not fit and the 911 pan attaches differently ... you would need to weld two studs to the body pan to make it work.

Way back in 1996, I bought a complete 1989 Carrera front end ($650); aluminum crossmember, steering gear, brakes, Boge struts, etc.. The underbody sway bar was not included.

After swapping the 914 steering coupler in place of the 911 coupler, the Carrera front end bolted right in. No extra bracket fabication required.

The 914 protection pan does not bolt up to the bottom of the 911 crossmember, so I used the 911 protection pan instead.

In conjunction with the Carrera front end and brakes, my 914 has 911SC rear brake rotors(vented), caliper spacers for the 914-4 rear calipers, 914-6 hubs/axels, and '73 911S half-shafts and CV joints.

Lots of brakes on this 914 now. Too much for a street car? The 1st time somebody on the freeway did a 'stupid' in front of me, I flat-spotted 4 new Yokohamas! So, need to be careful with the brake pedal when you have such big brakes on a light weight car.

Handling: At first a little better than the stock 914 suspension with Bilstein shock inserts, due to the larger 911 torsion bars. There were no sway bars on car at first. A few months later I picked up a stock 911 Carrera underbody sway bar at a swap-meet ($5). What a difference! The 914 corners much flatter after installing the front underbody sway bar.

>So what year 911 front suspension will bolt onto the 914 and specifically which year is best?

All years of 911 front suspension, 1965-1989, will bolt onto a 914.
Which year is best? Can't answer that.
1984-1989 have the biggest rotors and torsion bars.

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in this thread but please note that if you go with "big" brakes with 3.5" spacing you will need 16" rims!

You must be talking about the "big reds". Those brakes are overkill for a 914. I'm using C2 calipers & Carrera rotors with 15" Fuchs and BBS's.......

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That's exactly why they were installed from the factory on 914-6's, 914-6/GT's and 916's... to make our cars handle worse.



914 rotor with inclusive cast iron hub = ?
911 rotor with aluminum hub = ?
914 caliper = ?
911S Caliper or Brembo caliper = ?

Next myth?

Let's not get snippy there Moroni Boy .... that's my job and I LIKE IT!!!!

You make it sound that if you upgrade your brakes to fit a 3.5" strut spacing, then you will not be able to use 15"inch rims. That is incorrect unless you use gigantic brakes.

Many calipers have to use the 3.5" spacing and fit under a 15" rim.

T.C.

True, but I wanted to make people aware that not all brakes will work with 15" rims! Thats why I put "Big" in quotes.

We all know that once people get started down a path it can be frusterating when they hit a wall!

More info is better than less.

Eric;

Bad day fishing?

Quite frankly, I'm not really old enough to have been present when the Porsche engineers (or bean counters) were deciding on what components to use and why. I don't know. My guess is that they felt the Porsche version should have better brakes than the VW version. Maybe the thought was that with only 88 horsepower, the VW version didn't warrant the cost.

As for weight, I'd bet that the complete 914/6 strut assembly weighs more than the 914/4 assembly. (I just last week threw away a pair of 914/4 struts, so I can't do a weight comparison)

Both had iron calipers and the 6 version was physically larger, thus heavier.

The vented rotor was larger in diameter and thicker, although "vented" I'd bet per square inch of surface area it has more mass.

The aluminum hub on the /6 would be a plus over the cast iron hub section of the /4, but when you factor in the mounting flange area of the vented rotor, I'd bet it's a wash.

Are the /6 (and 911) struts beefer, and heavier? I don't know, but from what I understand you can't install a 911 hub on a 914 strut.

So unless weights are posted, the weight "myth" still seems valid. Comments about aluminum calipers or brembo's are not valid if you want to refer to what the factory did with the /6. Plus the fact that most reasonably priced 911 swaps have the iron calipers.

If mixing parts around is allowed in the discussion, then MichaelN's set-up with Alfa GTV6 aluminum calipers and billet hubs would be the weight winner (and with larger bore calipers to boot)


All that behind, I think SirAndy said it correct when he commented on the stiffer torsion bars, sway bar, and turbo tie rod links. All of which could be added to a 914 set-up.

(And I wonder why, at that Porsche engineer meeting, they decided that the 914 should have a through-body sway bar, while the 911 under-body sway bar was already in the parts bin. There must be some major technical reason behind it. I wasn't there at the time, so once again, I don't know. Maybe it causes some major safety issue when installed on a 914?)



Wes (I couldn't find a "stiring the pot" smilie) Vann

Actually going to have to agree with Eric on this Wes. Have you ever compared all these parts yourself? 914 rotors and hub are very heavy. Remember the 911 rotow is mostly just the rotor the bolts up to the hub. So there is much less cast iron there. The brakes are a huge difference. Both my 911S calipers are lighter than one 914 caliper. Then you have the cast iron cross member or the 911 aluminium cross member as well.

The 911 pan is quite a bit different from the 914 pan. Still all bolt in if you have all the right parts. I checked my donor 914 and saw no modifications where this suspension was pulled out of.



Looking forward to doing this conversion...still on the lookout for some 308 rear calipers though. (damn Salmon boy making me spend money!)

He has a way of doing that

I just finished my 71 suspension upgrade and 5 lug conversion.I decided on 911T struts with Bilstein inserts, turbo tie rods, Weltmeister sway bar and drilled rear hubs with 914/6 rotors.I reasearched this to be what was best for my driving habits.911T front struts with hubs and calipers are a good value and can be picked up in the classifieds here or on Ebay for a lot less than a SC full front end.I have less than $1000 in the ful conversion to 5 lug including caliper rebuild kits rotors struts drilled rear hubs and new rubber lines and a 19mm master cyl.This is the setup that came on the 914/6.When you buy a core front end complete for $600 you still have costs for replacement part and you have to buy a master cyl,drilled hubs,rotors etc.If you want all new brakes you will then need to RB calipers replace the front rotors and pads and maybe replace the struts.It's all money.I have a 1911 going in this car IMO an SC suspension would be overkill except for a race car.

I think that a 911 front suspension is a great upgrade. Done properly with aluminum calipers I'll bet you can actually decrease overall weight and if you don't get stupid (like I did) with the size of the rotors I'll bet unsprung weight stays about the same as the 4 or possibly lower.

I used 964RS calipers on mine (requires 951 wheels). The hubs and hats are aluminum, saving weight but the large rotors are about 3lbs heavier. They are enormous though. Never compared the weights to a 4 though. The brake system is about as overkill as you can get but the car handles great, the brakes will toss you through the window if desired and no standing on the pedal to stop. Wouldn't worry about heat for any situation. Despite the size of the big Brembos they weighed the same as the cast iron 911 units. The rotors and their spinning mass is a drawback. For a street car and low level racing that 914's would be involved in I suspect the small increase in unsprung weight is a non issue and the benefit of the upgrade will far outweigh the drawbacks. The rotors are a 911 vented vs my Wilwood

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How much trouble will I get into if I mention the ERP 935 front suspension system with coil-overs? That is THE BEST front suspension you could ever put on a 914/early 911. very light, very adjustable, and VERY nice looking

OK, maybe overkill for a street car, but it's still pretty sweet. It will be going on Huey when I get the funds..