Full Version: Porscheplatz at Petit LeMans
QUOTE(John Jentz @ Sep 22 2009, 11:18 AM) 
QUOTE(carr914 @ Sep 21 2009, 08:08 PM)
Looks like we are going to get wet.
T.C.
It's OK TC, Porscheplatz is on high ground!
Sorry I didn't see anybody, but I'm sure glad I didn't drive a Porsche. The Platz looked like a mud-bog.
My pics aren't in the same class as Zimms, but I can post a few.
T.C.
Click to view attachment
Can someone tell me about the P RS Spyder, was this a one off race? I saw them interviewed on SPEED and it sounded like this was the last race for the car.
Greg Pickett owns the RS Spyder ( he bought it from Dyson) and they have run 3 or 4 races this year.
T.C.
Click to view attachment
T.C.
Click to view attachment
this was their 3rd race with the RS Spyder. they bought one of the former Dyson cars. They are planning to run the last race of the season, and most likely next year. The problem is it is now a year old technology, and will be 2 years next year with limitation put on by the rules, so not sure how really competitive it will be. The team is great though - I got to meet a few of them. They got Porsche Motorsport support with the guys that worked with Penske, and obviously Sasha Massen.
QUOTE(naro914 @ Sep 28 2009, 09:14 AM)
this was their 3rd race with the RS Spyder. they bought one of the former Dyson cars. They are planning to run the last race of the season, and most likely next year. The problem is it is now a year old technology, and will be 2 years next year with limitation put on by the rules, so not sure how really competitive it will be. The team is great though - I got to meet a few of them. They got Porsche Motorsport support with the guys that worked with Penske, and obviously Sasha Massen.
During his presentation at the Porscheplatz during Petit LeMans, the head guy at Porsche Motorsports NA said that a non disclosed team was negotiating the purchase of another RS Spyder for next season. The one running in Petit was wicked fast while it was running, too bad it broke while leading P2 and lost x50 laps.
QUOTE(John Jentz @ Sep 28 2009, 11:24 AM)
QUOTE(naro914 @ Sep 28 2009, 09:14 AM)
this was their 3rd race with the RS Spyder. they bought one of the former Dyson cars. They are planning to run the last race of the season, and most likely next year. The problem is it is now a year old technology, and will be 2 years next year with limitation put on by the rules, so not sure how really competitive it will be. The team is great though - I got to meet a few of them. They got Porsche Motorsport support with the guys that worked with Penske, and obviously Sasha Massen.
During his presentation at the Porscheplatz during Petit LeMans, the head guy at Porsche Motorsports NA said that a non disclosed team was negotiating the purchase of another RS Spyder for next season. The one running in Petit was wicked fast while it was running, too bad it broke while leading P2 and lost x50 laps.
The RS Spyder seemed quite fast to me and I expected it to win P2. I think the Drayson Lola was the best looking prototype. The green color scheme really worked.
Regarding GT2, I was expecting the Corvettes to win. However the #45 Flying Lizard was shadowing them much of the race. Sometimes all three (two Corvettes and the 911) running nose to tail for quite a long time. This was my first PLMS race and I was surprised at how loud the V8 GT2 cars were. Especially the Corvettes. I loved the engine note of the 911 when on pit lane speed limiter. Sounded like a pod racer out of Star Wars.
QUOTE(Richard Casto @ Sep 28 2009, 11:37 AM)
Regarding GT2, I was expecting the Corvettes to win. However the #45 Flying Lizard was shadowing them much of the race. Sometimes all three (two Corvettes and the 911) running nose to tail for quite a long time. This was my first PLMS race and I was surprised at how loud the V8 GT2 cars were. Especially the Corvettes. I loved the engine note of the 911 when on pit lane speed limiter. Sounded like a pod racer out of Star Wars.
I know we all love Porsche, but I think the 911 layout is done in top level racing. If not a Cayman, we need a mid engined 911 like the old GT1. Yes, I thought the Corvettes were going to win it too.
Best engine sound in my opinion was the RS Spyder, high pitched high revs.
I second the Drayson Lolas' paint scheme, good looking.
QUOTE(John Jentz @ Sep 28 2009, 12:10 PM)
I know we all love Porsche, but I think the 911 layout is done in top level racing. If not a Cayman, we need a mid engined 911 like the old GT1. Yes, I thought the Corvettes were going to win it too.
Best engine sound in my opinion was the RS Spyder, high pitched high revs.
I second the Drayson Lolas' paint scheme, good looking.
Talking to Paul Ritchie - head of PMNA - they will NEVER go the Caymen race car route, or abandon the 911 layout, though with new management at Porsche...who knows.. He gave us some insight on the initial development of the Caymen. It was conceived ot have more stiffness, internal race inspired cross members, a little longer wheel base, and initially a 911 engine. That was all nixed immediately from upper management. Call it stubborn, or good business, but they will never build a race car that has a street version that is better than their most profitable platform, the 911.
He did say that next years RSR and Cup cars will be MUCH better than this year. And to your point that watching the Corvettes, Ferrari, and 911 running nose to tail for many laps, that should be interesting...
...and the Cayman looks enough like the 911 that most of the newer following would not know the difference anyway..
It seems dumb to cripple a platform to stay the same.. Apparently its the closed minds that are making the decisions.
But all Caymans have the M97 engine, not developed for competition like the GT series engines outfitted in the GT3, GT2 and Turbo 911s..
With factory outfitting there is NO WAY these M97s could withstand the rigors of an endurance race, they can't even make it on the street.. To make that cayman work wel;l they'd have to GT it or use an overkill engineered M97, which means they'd have to call me :-)
It seems dumb to cripple a platform to stay the same.. Apparently its the closed minds that are making the decisions.
But all Caymans have the M97 engine, not developed for competition like the GT series engines outfitted in the GT3, GT2 and Turbo 911s..
With factory outfitting there is NO WAY these M97s could withstand the rigors of an endurance race, they can't even make it on the street.. To make that cayman work wel;l they'd have to GT it or use an overkill engineered M97, which means they'd have to call me :-)
I think the one LMP class next season (except for Sebring and Petit) are going to be interesting. The Spyder has already proven it can run with the very best of the P1 in Penske's hands and a few allowances in the rules.
+3 on the Drayson Lola. Great looking car. I think the 911 architechure is sub optimum compared to the mid engined layouts, but Porsche always manages to keep the 911 at the top of the standings. It will be interesting to see what happens when the Vettes have to go to the 5.5L engine versus the 6.0 they are running now.
Did anyone catch the Corvette pit talk on Friday? I didn't realize the vettes were using ceramic rear wheel bearings. Doug also mentioned a lower viscosity they are working on with their oil supplier. I only caught a few minutes walking through the pits.
+3 on the Drayson Lola. Great looking car. I think the 911 architechure is sub optimum compared to the mid engined layouts, but Porsche always manages to keep the 911 at the top of the standings. It will be interesting to see what happens when the Vettes have to go to the 5.5L engine versus the 6.0 they are running now.
Did anyone catch the Corvette pit talk on Friday? I didn't realize the vettes were using ceramic rear wheel bearings. Doug also mentioned a lower viscosity they are working on with their oil supplier. I only caught a few minutes walking through the pits.
QUOTE(naro914 @ Sep 28 2009, 12:23 PM)
Talking to Paul Ritchie - head of PMNA - they will NEVER go the Caymen race car route, or abandon the 911 layout, though with new management at Porsche...who knows.. He gave us some insight on the initial development of the Caymen. It was conceived ot have more stiffness, internal race inspired cross members, a little longer wheel base, and initially a 911 engine. That was all nixed immediately from upper management. Call it stubborn, or good business, but they will never build a race car that has a street version that is better than their most profitable platform, the 911.
He did say that next years RSR and Cup cars will be MUCH better than this year. And to your point that watching the Corvettes, Ferrari, and 911 running nose to tail for many laps, that should be interesting...
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 28 2009, 01:08 PM)
...and the Cayman looks enough like the 911 that most of the newer following would not know the difference anyway..
It seems dumb to cripple a platform to stay the same.. Apparently its the closed minds that are making the decisions.
But all Caymans have the M97 engine, not developed for competition like the GT series engines outfitted in the GT3, GT2 and Turbo 911s..
With factory outfitting there is NO WAY these M97s could withstand the rigors of an endurance race, they can't even make it on the street.. To make that cayman work wel;l they'd have to GT it or use an overkill engineered M97, which means they'd have to call me :-)
I don't have a great deal of faith that they we be able to improve the RSR that much. I think they have been making incremental improvements, but the basic package is just not optimal and you just can't get around that no matter how much money they spend on it. Frankly, I think Porsche has just been getting a free ride for awhile in GT2 racing due to lack of serious factory based competition. Ferrari showed up and exposed the weakness of the 911 based GT2 car. Supposedly this years GT2 was to be a big improvement after getting beat up last year and it really hasn't happened.
I think Ferrari is going to do one more year with the current 430 based car and then the year after I think it will be an all new 458 based GT2 car. So I am assuming that Ferrari may not be doing any (or much) development on the current car. So Porsche may see improvement when compared to the current Ferrari, but watch out when Ferrari brings out the new car.
Assuming Porsche absolutely will not go racing with the Cayman (stupid in my opinion), then they just need to do what they have previously done in GT racing which is to build a mid-engine 911. The 1996 911 GT1 was a "911" in name only and didn't even look like a 911 much. Regardless it makes the marketing guys happy. Take the Cayman, tweak the styling a bit, put in an engine based upon the current 911 GT2 or GT3 and call it a 911 GT1. Then create an RSR version and go racing.
Regarding the M97 engine... If I remember correctly, they have stopped using the M97 as of this year and the current cars use the new 9A1 which is supposed to address many of the flaws in the M97 design. Even then, if they were to go racing with the Cayman, I would expect they would continue to use the split case engine used in the GT3, etc. It will be interesting to see if Porsche ever plans to go racing with the 9A1 engine.
The whole VW/Porsche thing should be interesting over the next couple years.
One school of thought is that they will do little to enhance the Porsche racing group, focusing on the 911 based racers and that's it.
The other school of thought, and the one I like better, is that Ferdinand Peich, as a part of the Porsche family and 'Father of the 917', will use the Porsche brand as their racing arm and funnel much of the motorsport funding to Porsche. Where that will lead, who knows. But Paul said that as far as he knows - and as head of PMNA he should know something - there are no plans in the foreseable future of developing anthing except the 911 based race car. No Prototype, no Caymen variant, nothing. Just DP engines in Grand Am, RSR's and Cups.
I've heard the same thing from some very reliable Porsche sources, so I have no reason to believe he is holding things back.
One school of thought is that they will do little to enhance the Porsche racing group, focusing on the 911 based racers and that's it.
The other school of thought, and the one I like better, is that Ferdinand Peich, as a part of the Porsche family and 'Father of the 917', will use the Porsche brand as their racing arm and funnel much of the motorsport funding to Porsche. Where that will lead, who knows. But Paul said that as far as he knows - and as head of PMNA he should know something - there are no plans in the foreseable future of developing anthing except the 911 based race car. No Prototype, no Caymen variant, nothing. Just DP engines in Grand Am, RSR's and Cups.
I've heard the same thing from some very reliable Porsche sources, so I have no reason to believe he is holding things back.
QUOTE(naro914 @ Sep 28 2009, 03:35 PM)
The whole VW/Porsche thing should be interesting over the next couple years.
One school of thought is that they will do little to enhance the Porsche racing group, focusing on the 911 based racers and that's it.
The other school of thought, and the one I like better, is that Ferdinand Peich, as a part of the Porsche family and 'Father of the 917', will use the Porsche brand as their racing arm and funnel much of the motorsport funding to Porsche. Where that will lead, who knows. But Paul said that as far as he knows - and as head of PMNA he should know something - there are no plans in the foreseable future of developing anthing except the 911 based race car. No Prototype, no Caymen variant, nothing. Just DP engines in Grand Am, RSR's and Cups.
I've heard the same thing from some very reliable Porsche sources, so I have no reason to believe he is holding things back.
I believe the info you are getting for PMNA is accurate. I just think they are stupid.
Then again they may agree with me and just not be able to do anything about it.The VW/Porsche thing is going to be interesting. My understanding as well is that F. Peich is a racer at heart due to his background. So I think that in the long term he will help the motorsports cause across the entire VW empire. However, how and when that causes something to change at Porsche is as you say something that will play out over the next few years. I don't think anyone has a reliable crystal ball on that one.
My opinion is that it's going to be like a bunch of small children looking for love from their parents and arguing over who is the favorite. For example, Audi racing could care less what Porsche wants to do. There is only going to be so much money to go around and they may want to avoid battling each other in the same class as that would not be money well spent.
My prediction is...
No significant change for next year. Porsche will continue to race the 911 GT3 RSR and will continue to struggle. Audi will continue with prototype racing next year. If Audi are far enough along with their GT program they may be allowed to do that as well as long as the economy continues to improve. It may also be a development year for them even if they race against Porsche. But them racing against each other at the factory level may just be in 2010 only.
New prototype rules take effect in 2011 and I suspect that 2010 will be the last year of the Audi diesel engines and car. Porsche could then run a gas engine in a brand new P1 car. The P1 engine would be a development of the current P2 engine which seems to be a good engine. The P2 class will be production based engines and Porsche could even go P2 racing using the new P1 chassis but with the the current 911 GT3 RSR engine. Using a production based 911 engine would allow the 911 marketing guys to be happy.
This "could" allow Porsche to consider not doing any serious GT racing. They could continue to support privateers in GT and continue with things like 911 Cup spec series, but would really not challenge the top level GT class via significant development of the car. This could allow Audi to be the main VW focus in GT racing. Or they may do the above and let both Audi and Porsche battle it out in GT, but I just don't see VW spending the money to support two factory GT and two Prototype efforts.
Until someone decides that a street 911 will be a mid-engined car, which to me by definition is not possible, I believe Porsche will always race the 911 platform as a rear engined car. Maybe not in RSR form with ALMS, but definitely in Cup form with series like Grand Am, SPEED world Challenge and various European series, not to mention the single make series like GT3 Cup and such. If they went away from professional racing with the cash cow of their 'sports car' line, it would dull the sports car image of the 911, and company as a whole. As it is, too many sports car enthusiasts see Porsche as becoming a luxury car company, NOT a sports car company.
Honestly, this is the first year in a while that Porsche had some serious competition in ALMS. And except for the red flag then cancellation of the end of Petit, the championship could very well be sewn up for Porsche once again. Who knows....
Honestly, this is the first year in a while that Porsche had some serious competition in ALMS. And except for the red flag then cancellation of the end of Petit, the championship could very well be sewn up for Porsche once again. Who knows....
Until someone decides that a street 911 will be a mid-engined car, which to me by definition is not possible, I believe Porsche will always race the 911 platform as a rear engined car. Maybe not in RSR form with ALMS, but definitely in Cup form with series like Grand Am, SPEED world Challenge and various European series, not to mention the single make series like GT3 Cup and such. If they went away from professional racing with the cash cow of their 'sports car' line, it would dull the sports car image of the 911, and company as a whole. As it is, too many sports car enthusiasts see Porsche as becoming a luxury car company, NOT a sports car company.
Honestly, this is the first year in a while that Porsche had some serious competition in ALMS. And except for the red flag then cancellation of the end of Petit, the championship could very well be sewn up for Porsche once again. Who knows....
Honestly, this is the first year in a while that Porsche had some serious competition in ALMS. And except for the red flag then cancellation of the end of Petit, the championship could very well be sewn up for Porsche once again. Who knows....
QUOTE(naro914 @ Sep 28 2009, 05:28 PM)
Until someone decides that a street 911 will be a mid-engined car, which to me by definition is not possible, I believe Porsche will always race the 911 platform as a rear engined car.
Just to be clear, Porsche already raced a mid engine 911 in a GT series. The 1996 911 GT1 used the center section of a street 911, but with much of the rest sourced from the 956/962. So there is no reason they couldn't do it again. I am also not saying it's the best option, but it just could be one that would satisfy the marketing people at Porsche who seem to be running the racing department.
I don't want to come across as argumentative on any of this. I think we are all on the same side and would like to see Porsche win in whatever class they choose.
By the way, I saw Huey at Porscheplatz and it looked like a great car!
Richard, the 96 911GT1 had the front bulkhead from a stock 911, but not to quibble.
Porsche claimed to be the largest manufacturer of racecar in the world in 2007. A lot may have changed in structure & finance, but Porsche is not going to give that up.
They could make what they want & win tomorrow. Hopefully Piech will remember his 917 days, make a run of cars, run them for a race or two, sell them off to privateers, then the next batch, fill the fields with Porsches.
The 917 looked nothing like anything Porsche, but yet it is what a generation or two look at as the Ultimate Porsche
T.C.
Porsche claimed to be the largest manufacturer of racecar in the world in 2007. A lot may have changed in structure & finance, but Porsche is not going to give that up.
They could make what they want & win tomorrow. Hopefully Piech will remember his 917 days, make a run of cars, run them for a race or two, sell them off to privateers, then the next batch, fill the fields with Porsches.
The 917 looked nothing like anything Porsche, but yet it is what a generation or two look at as the Ultimate Porsche
T.C.
QUOTE(Richard Casto @ Sep 28 2009, 07:17 PM)
Just to be clear, Porsche already raced a mid engine 911 in a GT series. The 1996 911 GT1 used the center section of a street 911, but with much of the rest sourced from the 956/962. So there is no reason they couldn't do it again. I am also not saying it's the best option, but it just could be one that would satisfy the marketing people at Porsche who seem to be running the racing department.
I don't want to come across as argumentative on any of this. I think we are all on the same side and would like to see Porsche win in whatever class they choose.
By the way, I saw Huey at Porscheplatz and it looked like a great car!
Not argumentative at all, and you have a very valid point about the GT1, though other than them CALLING it a 911, it was nothing at all like a 911. OK, so there was a front, or middle clip the same, but still....you would never look at the GT1 and think 911.
The problem all of us have with Porsche right now is that they keep doing things that move further and further away from their racing and sports car roots: Cayenne, Panamera, etc, but it works and they make money at it. In the end, they are a business, and being one of the most profitable car companies in the world means that like it or not, what they are doing is working. (that is until greed took over and hosed themselves big time)
Wiedeking was a business man, a bean counter, not a motorsports or racing guy. If it didn't make money, it didn't need to be in the business. They made LOTS of money with the GT3 Cups and RSR's. Notice, the RS Spyder was not run as a factory entry like Audi or Peugot, it was for customers only. So they sold them and made money.
Piech loves racing. As does Von Platen, PCNA's CEO . Btw, he came to the track this weekend just to hang out in the pits. He was in Germany on Friday for a board meeting, took a red-eye home just to get to the track. totally unannounced, and non-official. He is a HUGE car/race guy, and a big motorcycle guy too. Maybe he'll have some influence???
Should be interesting....
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Thanks for the compliment on Huey....just wish I could get it running perfect ALL the time!
We're all right. Porsche is no longer a sportscar company, it is a sporting luxury car maker with a motorsports heritage. Every carmaker has to make money and the 911 makes them alot of money. Screwing with the basic architecture of the 911 must cause cold sweats for the marketers at night. BUT even VW quit building the bug!
More and more mid engined cars could be made to play in GT2, I'm thinking Audi R8, the new McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458, ect. Porsche has had tremendous success over the years inspite of the rear engine due to engineering, preparation, lots of sweat and lots of teams running them. I think the quantity of Porsches being raced is due to the fact that was very little for the opposition to choose from. Porsche's factory development and trackside support over the years has done much for the brand loyalty, but there were a lot of defections to Ferrari when it looked like they were the "Hot Setup".
So, will Porsche return to their sportscar roots? I read an opinion somewhere, Panorama?, that VW will kill the Cayenne and Panamera after this cycle is completed.
Whatever, I want to see competitive racing Porsches forever.
More and more mid engined cars could be made to play in GT2, I'm thinking Audi R8, the new McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458, ect. Porsche has had tremendous success over the years inspite of the rear engine due to engineering, preparation, lots of sweat and lots of teams running them. I think the quantity of Porsches being raced is due to the fact that was very little for the opposition to choose from. Porsche's factory development and trackside support over the years has done much for the brand loyalty, but there were a lot of defections to Ferrari when it looked like they were the "Hot Setup".
So, will Porsche return to their sportscar roots? I read an opinion somewhere, Panorama?, that VW will kill the Cayenne and Panamera after this cycle is completed.
Whatever, I want to see competitive racing Porsches forever.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.