Talk about a slap in the face
I think the powers that be and admin need to weigh in here
does this club need more desention.. more reason to split?
haven't we been down this road before?

I have sore toes now from getting stepped upon
brant

Something needs to be done for sure. Everyone that brought it up to me at RRC09 could not believe that WCR moved itself to the September dates on a whim of a few members the day after WCR09! This also seemed to be a slap in Joe Sharp's face IMHO (no, I am not dragging him into this...as Joe did not say anything to myself or anyone) it is just my feelings on the subject.

Just wanted to let you know, I hear you and planners are talking. I feel like an idiot for not realizing the error before it happened, but I can absolutely assure you that it was a mistake and in no ways intentional.

I believe you Mark, but we need to figure this out....plain and simple.

I absolutely don't disagree. If anyone reading this has something to add that they don't want to post, or just want to have their voice heard, please PM me or call me. I always want to hear what everyone has to say.

I am sure they will figure something out. While I was never crazy with the date. I am sure as they said it was not on purpose. Good you are voicing your opinion on the matter so it can get taken care of.

I do plan to set up a PNW914 meet in May-June next year. Not to compete with anything I just don't want to wait until september for another . It will be on a smaller scale. Probably just a 2-day event with most the closer guys coming. You can never have enough Teener time in my opinion

I voiced my opinion on the other thread and will add, "if they don't like it, to effin' bad". What goes around; comes around.

Lake Tahoe may be magic, but Reno certainly isn't.

I don't have anything to add specifically; but I do want to voice my opinion that I feel that the 2 events have historically and consistently been late spring and fall and should stay that way.

I think that as a group (both planning committees) there should be a discussion and agreement if the dates end up overlapping.

I added a poll. =o) It looks like this thread got added while I was adding the poll...

Sounds to me like Brant is having a bad day, and if I were closer to CO I'd cruise down and take him out for a proverbial beer. (not sure if he drinks, I know I don't)

I think: Brant was not at RRC. Brant has been busy and hasn't been on the board much. Brant is still a cool guy.

Brant may be a cool guy but he has said some things he should not have said and doesn't appear headed for an apology.

We have done a lot of work and had no objection until yesterday. These objections should have been handled by PM to one of the planning people. Not as a public attack at this late date.

I have said my last about this publically. McMark has sent me a PM that says "I am sure you feel under attack by the RRC guys..." Yep. If you want to change things try a different approach. I am a very reasonable person. I work hard to organize things and bring people together here locally. If you want to change my mind, try a little more respectful approach.

I saw a date objection as the second post to your thread?

Doesn't the 2nd post - the first reply to your WCR announcement state that there is a conflict with the dates?

C'mon guys!

How about we get a corporate jet and a couple beer kegs and combine the two?

Or make it an East Coast / West Coast event with some type of friendly competition?

What do you think this is, a corvette club? Both sides are way too good at making owning a 914 fun! Let's get back to being comfortably numb...

Just don't make it any sooner. Its going to be difficult enough to get my car done in a year!

It is not us versus them! You can get that out of your head. It is about a little common courtesy when it involves people like myself that can only afford to go to one or two events a year, and are emotionally tied to a certain event.

I am not the planner for RRC for one. The planners rotate throughout the years. Planning is a stressful PITA and not too many can do it with a smile on their face for more than a year or two.

People do get attached to events for different reasons. I personally am more attached to the Route 66 event and the Red Rocks Event. I was fortunate enough to save enough cash up this year to go to three (Rt66, WCR and RRC), and it was great. I may not be that lucky next year. It is easier financially as well as vacation wise when I know that Rt66 (a tiny event vs. WCR) is in the cool spring time, WCR is in the Spring or Summer, and RRC is in the fall. Unfortunately most people in the Utah, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada and New Mexico area already lost an event when Series9 moved to Florida and the Atomic Ramble went away.

Don't take this as a personal attack Conedodger.....a couple of us were paying close enough attention to bring it up early on and it wasn't listened to.

I know a lot of people that want to go to the WCR, I know a lot of people want to go to Red Rocks as well as MUSR and Rt66. If we all use a little courtesy to the other events, this all runs smoothly. If you choose to "forget" what dates another event it on it kind of shows piss poor planning from the get go IMHO.

Flame me as much as you would like now.....NOMEX butt protector is on!

And post #48 is my pointing out the same thing.

I've tried not to get in the middle of this, but I'll have to say something now.

Rob, you seem to be taking this personally, and it's not.

RRC has been the same date for 5 years and that was brought to the attention of the WRC planning committee. IMO common courtesy should have been enough reason to make WRC10 a different date. It just doesn't make sense to plan an event for the exact date a separate event has historically been. Pretty simple actually and not personal. And the comments you've made every time it's been brought up really seem kind of tongue in cheek and perhaps even indignant. I think that's why there is some animosity coming through now on the part of the RRC planning team members.

My .02 ...

Eric, out of respect I changed the wording on my poll. =o)

where can we go from here?

Rob probably got too excited for WCR 2010, and didn't realize the implications that come people from RRC go to WCR, and vice versa. I am sure that he didn't mean for any quarrels (as with any other person from the west coast). After all, we are all here for the same purpose, and we always have a good time at these events


so....



What can change now? I, and I assume others, want to go to both. Can RRC change dates? Can WCR change dates? What has enough planned out as far as actual venue's and events that changing now would be a bigger hassle. We might need to get past the September date, and just work to get both done so more people can go to both. I sure as hell want to both if i could.

I know, historically, yes, RCC is usually on that date... But the point to RRC isn't exactly the date, it's the event itself... we need to move past the date and just see where people can be flexible in the planning to get people at both events.....

my .02

Hell I'd just like to see another 914 in Western Illinois/Eastern Iowa. Hopefully everything can be worked out!

Then again you could all just say the hell with both events and come drive The Dragon with the MUSR gang. We ALL get along!

Sounds like we need a national planning calendar forum via World to post to for 2010 right now, and get the events lined up.

Actually your post #48 states that you will be there towing the 914 behind the Eurovan and that RRC is usually in September but that things will work out... In my memory, WCR has moved dates every year. Often not being in the same month.

I had absolutely nothing to do with picking those dates. I simply agreed with the dates along with everyone else who was at the meeting. RRC did not come up. I repeat, RRC did not come up. We had no way of knowing that RRC is always on the same dates because none of us have ever been there. So ya'll can quit acting like we picked these dates to spite you personally or ruin RRC.

I am sensitive to your problem but what no one seems to be understanding is that I did not make these decisions by myself and I cannot change anything by myself. Now I have some guy from Colorado saying I need to apologize and that I am clearly not a people person. Then he goes on to say I am the second person he has banned from responding. Wow. That doesn't seem like a people person sort of response. If I am not much of a people person, why have I never banned anyone from responding? Then on top of that, it turns out when he says he feels like he has been slapped in the face he isn't even refering to the post that he is responding to. Imagine my confusion! He felt slapped in the face by my apology for our event being in the same month.

If I had this much of a problem with the planning of someone elses event, I sure would have spoken up louder and clearer and much sooner. We took post #2 in our thread to mean the person would not be there because they were going to RRC and could only go to one event. #48 clearly says that the person will be there and RRC is around that time not that the world will come to an end if WCR and RRC are on the same weekend. September if no one else has noticed is 30 days long. We are only using three days.

I have attended meetings, gone to Tahoe twice, used my contacts. Where was this angst and anguish on July 25th when we announced the dates?

I've got your plan right here!

Rob-Meister Dude!

I don't think anyone seriously thinks *you* picked those dates to intentionally mess with the RRC guys ...


I can completely understand why one would be taken back by the fact that no-one seemed to even think of cross referencing the dates in question with other events that might take place.
That just seems like an obvious thing to do.

And if i'm not mistaken, at least one member of the WCR '10 planning consortium has attended previous RRC events.
Andy

Christmas will be on July 4th next year. Sorry if that don't work out for you guys!

My post #48 was not very emphatic simply because I was not a planner for RRC2010 and could not know the exact date it would be held. I also tend to approach things in a non-confrontational manner. I did feel that the response I got was rather dismissive and saying that you hoped to make it to RRC some day wasn't enough to change that. It was pretty clear to me that nothing I or Sleepin said were going to change anything about WCR because it should have been apparent already that there was a problem from just hanging around these forums and seeing what events had happened in the past and when they were scheduled. There didn't seem to be much point at the time in protesting further when 2 posts immediately after the announcement pointed out that there was a conflict with an established event. Besides, the dates were announced as tentative - it was only much later that it became obvious that they had become official dates despite the mentions of conflicting dates.

I might have chosen different words, but just so you know why Brant has been stepping into this - I believe it is because he was one of the initial planners for the first RRC who went to great lengths to poll the community and ensure that the event would not conflict with any other nearby event. He has certainly earned the right to speak up.

When we discussed all this at RRC I pushed for the idea that RRC should be the ones to be the accommodating party in resolving this problem, but I also believe that if the WCR planners had done a reasonable job of being observant and thinking ahead we would not have had the problem to begin with.

Will I be there for WCR10? I don't know. It's a long ways away from now and there are other considerations, but I hope I'm not placed in the position where I have to choose between WCR & RRC. WCR may be using only 3 days, but any event that draws from the same geographic pool and is scheduled within a month of another event is too close and is really a conflicting schedule.

For me the biggest thing is that event organizers learn from this that there is no excuse for "planning in a vacuum" and that in fact we don't all do that because it is incredibly discourteous. If we all learn the lesson of looking around so that we can avoid conflicts then it's fine by me.

That actually works out great for me - with 2 birthdays to celebrate on Dec 15 & one on the 20th I could use some space between them and Christmas!

This would be awesome. We missed a few fine members at the ECC this year, and part of it was due to scheduling conflicts.

I'll say it again... your committee was notified early on (even before you had solid dates for WCR10 I believe) that RRC was in September and given the date of the event. Your committee chose to schedule WCR10 on those exact dates anyway. Having someone complain about that choice you collectively made should not have been a prerequisite for making the date for WCR10 different than the RRC date. It should have been made a different date regardless once you had that information. Very simple.

In light of that I can certainly see why the RRC past and present planners are upset at your committee's choice of dates. And the attitude you've displayed since then hasn't helped at all. I'm a little... surprised at the very least that you can't see the forest for the trees. Perhaps you're just so busy arguing your point that you can't step back and look at this objectively.

I'm curious, where is the rest of your planning committee? We haven't heard from them? I'm not sure because I don't know who the members are. You're the spokesman for the group apparently so you're getting the brunt of the argument. I get that also FWIW.

Again, my attempt an an objective .02 And cross posted to both threads.

that pretty much sums it up.

Maybe we should all just stop for a second and think about climate change....

I know what this is! its just a plot to gather more people to sign up and go. Fine! I'll go to one. Well done sir, well done.

couldn't resist

Who is that mysterious ugly short guy with the goatee?

And another first .... Brain Brian Munday actually got his finger up in time for the photo. He must have been sent a letter at least 3 weeks prior.

Oh, and this whole mess is over ... dates are set .... Brant decided that RRC could go off earlier in the month in Vega$ ... I'll make sure the rocks are painted red in the Valley of Fire and Red Rock Canyon in keeping with the theme. The rest of you can paint the town (whatever color you want ... they like green).

As a relative newbie to this board, I have yet to be able to participate in a WCC or RRC. Although the 2009WCR was held less than a mile from my house, I had to be traveling to Kansas that week.

So here's my question: How many teeners attend both the RRC and WCC in the same year? 1? 2? 10? 50?

If these are for the most part, mutually exclusive events, then except for some bent feelers, I really don't understand the issue. However, if a majority of members attend both of these events, that's a different matter.

I have been seeing a daily post for the WCC Tahoe since July 21. With all of the planning and arrangements for Tahoe pretty much firmed up, I really don't see how the Tahoe committment can be moved.

How about we ask, really nicely, if the RRC will consent to change their RRC either one weekend forward or one weekend back. And as a special token of our appreciation, we could send them a shrubbery. One that looks nice. And not too expensive.

Just a thought

Eric Read
(Yes. Shrubberies are my trade. I am a shrubber. My name is Eric Shrubber. I arrange, design, and sell shrubberies.)

I pointed out the conflict with the Reno Air Races. I didn't see the point in repeating the RRC conflict, since it had already been mentioned. The only response was:

Seemed that minds were made up, so I simply offered my condolences to the RRC guys in private.

"Hello POT, I'm KETTLE............"



gratuitous pic

One of the main reasons for scheduling the event at Tahoe on that specific date was to piggy-back the existing car show, get better room prices by doing so without having to reserve and pay for a block of rooms, avoid a hot summer for those driving distance, offer more things to do for those attending, have an autocross course on site and the list goes on.....

The Cool September Days show is an existing show that we have no control on the dates. We didn't pick the date out of the air. However the sponsor has other shows that we may be able to piggy back if we move the location. If it can work out we'll do something. We can also run this as a local event and someone else can reorganize the WCR. It's significant time and work to organize events and not productive to beat up those that take the time and effort to organize them.

Lets give it a break until some research can be done.

There are other member of the WCR2010 planning committee, 6 originally and at least 1 other volunteer since the start. Rob has been the cheerleader and promoter but has had no more power to chose or decide anything that anyone else on the committee. All of our decisions came after discussions.

I have not responded till now in part because I have been watching and reading in awe and a little fear at the sudden and viscous attack on Rob and this event.

When we started planning WCR2010 we of course wanted to make it the best event we could. While researching potential sites and facilities in Tahoe we were invited to join in with an existing event. After a group discussion, as in live sitting at a table together, we concluded that this event seemed to help us provide for a WCR that could offer everyone more than if we went it alone. The event, Cool September Days, had a date set already and other than the date being latter than other WCR events the date did not get much discussion.

I personally never knew there were any pre reserved dates for any events and never thought that scheduling an event over a year away would create a conflict. I presumed that others planning events would chose a date of there own, suiting there event and needs. It was not unexpected (by me) when there were a couple of people that expressed concerns over the date as there will never be an event that fits everyone's needs or schedule. The fact that only a couple people express concern (until now) I took as a good sign since the 914World seems to be very active and open to voicing their opinions.

There was never any malice or attempt to grab someone else's date but obviously we could have and should have researched our date and its impact more completely.

The planning committee is having a discussion amongst ourselves and looking at how and what to do next. We are concerned by this and are not going to just lay low until it blows over.

I personally apologize to anyone that feels I, as part of the planning committee, has slighted them or devalued their opinions and I apologize to Rob for being so slow to speak up and leaving him twisting in the wind so to speak.

Jim Dupree

I am posting this to both the active threads on this subject.

*Some* people are treating me as if I picked those dates, and second that I did it intentionally, and third that I did it to mess with the RRC people. In fact the phrase "slap in the face" comes to mind. It was directed at me. No reference to any planning group. Me... So, no - you are wrong.

It is patently unfair to imply that McMark had anything to do with this as he only attended one meeting and made it clear he was there in an advisory capacity. McMark is very busy and appropriately so with his own life right now and has not been involved. I know of no other member of our group that has attended RRC, and certainly no member who was at the session where dates were picked.

If this had been handled appropriately and perhaps this is wishful thinking but in a timely manner, it would have been easily handled and without this drama. What I mean by appropriate is to PM the objections to any one of us. Now, we have people who have never planned anything telling us how we have made the mistake of not checking with everyone in the world or at least 914World before selecting dates (DBCooper). We have others criticizing the plans for the event themselves (look at the poll which purports to attempt resolution but gives a choice of avoiding WCR because it has gotten "too OT".) We have you criticizing how I promote the event (why would something you are free to click on or not click on "annoy" you, just don't. If you want to plan it come to the meetings otherwise why?).

At this point, I am about to pull the pin on the grenade and just walk away. I don't need this. I imagine the other members are being quiet because they are horrified by how I am being treated. I would probably shut up too. I will just call the people I have collaborated with and apologize for wasting their time.

You do have a break ... Brant & the other organizers have decided that early in Sept is OK. It's now time to get over it.

And as far as piggybacking on a car show ... whatever turns your crank.

You want to piggyback on a track day somewhere is another story. Most of us like to drive our teeners and some of us like to go fast in curves multiple times.

As I see it ... you have your dates ... they are set. Let it be. I will quit stirring the shit now and return to my forte of bashing my friends (Yes, as amazing at it may seem, some of them call me friend ... some of them call me other things). I love them all.

Can you tell me how our group was notified of this Mike? Because as I keep repeatedly pointing out, post #2 appears to be a person saying that they would not be attending WCR because it was in September and that was when RRC was. It appears to be a choice not a challenge. As I said before, WCR is scheduled over a 3 out of 30 day month and we did not know we were stepping directly on their event. In fact, it occured to me that if RRC was the week before or the week after, I could take the time and leave directly from Tahoe and head to their event. Post #48 states that they are making plans to go but brings up that RRC is in September and states that this would probably work out. Again, not a challenge, more of a concern mitigated by the statement that it would work out. Are you saying that someone on our group was informed by PM and didn't pass it on? Otherwise, you are incorrect and saying this is just divisive.

Why would the rest of the group expose themselves to this? I don't blame them. No one on the RRC side of things seems willing to admit that this should have been handled privately and in a timely manner. Look at this shit-storm. It should have been shut down yesterday and RRC and WCR could have negotiated it out.

Dude, you still don't get it.

Let it go and accept the fact that you did not put enough effort into planning this around another established event.

This would have been obvious with just a little bit of research, not much, just a little.

And no one is out to get you, you just have been a little obstinate in your handling of t he matter.

Here is my post from the other thread:

I am certain that know one ever truly believed there to be any "malice", just that you guys could have "planned" things a little better. Route 66 is always in the Spring, WCC is always in the summer and RRC is always in the fall. It has ALWAYS been that way. A little research would have clearly pointed this out. We are working on an RRC date of the week prior to your event, but events that close together will cause some to have to choose. If you think that is ok, then keep your date. I for one would think that a mid summer date would make more sense in a "traditonal" sense.

Sure, as soon as you guys accept that you should have spoken up sooner and handled it privately. I am no more obstinant than you guys are right because you gang up on me.

Gad ....

Hi.....I posted early on. Sorry not many noticed it until recently. I don't understand how my (now infamous) #2 post could possibly construed as anything but what is says. Maybe this should have aroused a "hmmm let's check into this" from the whole comittee, not just you Rob.

edit: I agree with Ron. This topic is over IMO. No hard feelings....rock on!

I would ask that this be the last post.......PLEASE

We can look into some options but this is not the place.....

"And in the end,
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make"