 Titanium Connecting Rods, Pumping people for info. |
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| alpha434 |
 Feb 4 2006, 02:24 PM
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#1
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My member number is no coincidence.  Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains  |
I intend on making myself titanium connecting rods. Don't tell me its a bad idea. I'm already set on doing it. BUT, I want input on the exact shape. I'm assuming that the structure has to be a little different to downplay brittleness in titanium. Porsche factory did titanium. Does anyone have one that could take a picture for me?
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Replies(1 - 19)
| ArtechnikA |
Feb 4 2006, 02:38 PM
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#2
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rich herzog Group: Members Posts: 7,390 Joined: 4-April 03 From: Salted Roads, PA Member No.: 513 Region Association: None |
without the ability to make near-net-shape forgings i think you'll find shape is not important. brittle? are we talking about the same titanium? because one thing the titanium i know about is not is brittle (which is why it's so good for springs; brittle materials typically don't make good springs...) the Porsche factory BOUGHT titanium rods for most of their racing engines at one time or another. the current round of GT3RSR still does. from Pankl IIRC. Arrow also makes nice Ti rods. |
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| TimT |
Feb 4 2006, 02:54 PM
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#3
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retired Group: Members Posts: 4,033 Joined: 18-February 03 From: Wantagh, NY Member No.: 313 |
I have 18 Pankl Ti rods at the shop, 12 are going out for an attempt at being reconditioned, We just recieved 6 from PMNA and they are junk also, they were packed in one bag with no protection between the rods. So back to PMNA they go!
Back on topic, The Porsche Motorsports Ti rods look just like regular 996 rods, they dont have any extra reinforcement I have learned that after machining the Ti rods are treated with some sort of surface coating that is needed. The metalurgists that visited the shop and critiqued the rods was adamant about having no stress risers on the rod surface, a little teeny nick that might be ignored on a steel rod can be a big problem on a Ti rod. Ti is a pain to machine also. Have fun! |
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| LvSteveH |
Feb 4 2006, 03:04 PM
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#4
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I put the Poor in Porsche Group: Members Posts: 1,080 Joined: 22-April 03 From: Las Vegas, Nevada Member No.: 600 |
Without getting into detail, you will be much better off trying to do a set in aluminum. Once you've demonstrated proficiency, you might consider moving onto something more complex. The billet aluminum is relatively affordable, to get titanium billet of the necessary alloy, you could purchase a nice 914 before you even started thinking about what it would require to machine, heat treat, and finish it.
Good luck with that (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif) |
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| alpha434 |
Feb 4 2006, 04:24 PM
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#5
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My member number is no coincidence. Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Ha. Way to understate my abilities. (Said while chris plays with the titanium ring on his finger) Aluminum and titanium are two completely different subjects. Any rookie who shows proficiency with aluminum is going to blow up some tooling with titanium. Lots of tooling. And most rookies like to blow up the real expensive tooling first. Next, you can't heat treat titanium conventionally. It requires a vacuum to keep it from oxidizing or combusting. Third, titanium springs are made from an alpha/beta composite alloy. This is the most expensive titanium you could ever hope to by. I'm going to try to make the connecting rods out of beta alloy; which is actually 70% magnesium and stronger then the 99% pure based on molecular bonding. What's a net shaped forging? If there's an advantage to a particular shape, that's the info I want. |
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| LvSteveH |
Feb 4 2006, 04:52 PM
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#6
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I put the Poor in Porsche Group: Members Posts: 1,080 Joined: 22-April 03 From: Las Vegas, Nevada Member No.: 600 |
Ok.... alpha and beta and alpha/beta are not alloys..... they are categories of alloys. There are dozens of specific alloys in each category that are tailored to specific properties and applications. Heat treatment does not need to be done in a vacuum. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)
How many type 4's have you heard of that are limited by their connecting rod options? There are plenty of available crank/rod combinations to meet the needs of even the most aggressive type 4. Unless of course you enjoy bench racing..... then the sky's the limit! |
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| Kevin@ojai.net |
Feb 4 2006, 04:55 PM
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 9-July 03 From: Ventura & Chico, CA Member No.: 899 |
Is that a joke? |
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| alpha434 |
Feb 4 2006, 04:56 PM
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#8
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My member number is no coincidence. Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Bump. What kind of surface coating? Black oxide? Or why is the coating there, for surace protecting or olefilia(did i spell that right?) That one could be important. |
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| davep |
Feb 4 2006, 05:00 PM
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#9
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914 Historian Group: Benefactors Posts: 5,159 Joined: 13-October 03 From: Burford, ON, N0E 1A0 Member No.: 1,244 Region Association: Canada  |
A net-shape forging is one that requires minimal machining to finish, and probably only the journals.
Since Tim says that the Ti rods are visually similar to the 993 rods, I'd guess the shape is nearly independant of the metallurgy. Does Porsche still use the "broken" rod concept where the big end is "broken" to make a perfectly fitted cap? |
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| alpha434 |
Feb 4 2006, 05:03 PM
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#10
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My member number is no coincidence. Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Annealing can be done outside a vacuum, but otherwise, atleast a purge gas is absolutely needed. And I don't care about having limitations on connecting rod options. I'm being pushed into this project by someone who wants about four dozen of them for his 356s. Alpha and beta are categories. Just like 8000 series stainless. Or 1000 series low carbon steel. But I'm going by the basic characteristics of each. As long as net shaped forgings doesn't mean little criss crosses in the shape, I'm joking. |
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| alpha434 |
Feb 4 2006, 05:04 PM
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#11
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My member number is no coincidence. Group: Members Posts: 3,154 Joined: 16-December 05 From: Denver, CO Member No.: 5,280 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Thats how carillo does theirs. |
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| TimT |
Feb 4 2006, 05:21 PM
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#12
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retired Group: Members Posts: 4,033 Joined: 18-February 03 From: Wantagh, NY Member No.: 313 |
I believe the coating on the Pankl Ti rods is an oleophilic coating. Ti and steel dont get along together on there own so a coating is needed. The Pankl rods are dipped to coat, you can see where they were hung by the wrist pin, and dipped.
We found an aerospace company thats going to have a look at the 12 paperwieghts we have and see if they can, or will refresh them. We cant get the rods from Pankl because they have an agreement to sell them only to Porsche motorsports. Also the metallurgist mentioned that the Pankl rods should have a more reinforced big end.. |
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| Katmanken |
Feb 4 2006, 05:32 PM
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#13
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You haven't seen me if anybody asks... Group: Members Posts: 4,738 Joined: 14-June 03 From: USA Member No.: 819 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I wouldn't screw with titanium unless there is a real need for it.
Stuff is a bitch. Don't know what you are doing and you have junk pretty quick. Even people that work with it day in and day out can't explain it's behavior sometimes. One vendor I worked with made military parts and stuff for us. He would place a sheet in the form die and whack it to form a shape. Sometimes, from the same lot of maleable material, the shit would explode and fracture like glass....... My model shop usta machine waveguides and other parts outa the stuff. Ever seen a master model maker roll his eyes when you come in with anything that needs to be machined from titanium? Wash it all in distilled water. One dose of chlorine from the tap water and.... "BINK" you will have broken parts at some unknown time in the future. Like steel or aluminum, you need to pick a grade of material that matches your material strength and ductility issues. Ken |
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| Brett W |
Feb 4 2006, 07:03 PM
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#14
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,856 Joined: 17-September 03 From: huntsville, al Member No.: 1,169 Region Association: None 
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Titanium needs a coating like a DLC type coating. Titanium hates to be "rubbed". You know like what happens everytime the crank turns and the rod touches the cheek on the counter wieght.
Stress risers are a huge no-no when dealing with Ti. One little nic, ding, scratch, etc and they will fail at that point. I don't know if you can shotpeen the material or not. I know Cheverolet is using the rods in the new LS7 engine. |
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| Aaron Cox |
Feb 4 2006, 07:10 PM
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#15
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
i thought that was Magnesium..... |
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| DNHunt |
Feb 4 2006, 07:18 PM
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#16
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914 Wizard? No way. I got too much to learn. Group: Members Posts: 4,099 Joined: 21-April 03 From: Gig Harbor, WA Member No.: 598 |
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif) I think this might be interesting (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blowup.gif)
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| Allan |
Feb 4 2006, 07:21 PM
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#17
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Teenerless Weenie Group: Members Posts: 8,373 Joined: 5-July 04 From: Western Mesopotamia Member No.: 2,304 Region Association: Southern California |
Is just that college boy. Minimum machine work to save manufacturing costs... |
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| sean_v8_914 |
Feb 4 2006, 10:16 PM
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#18
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Chingon 601 Group: Members Posts: 4,011 Joined: 1-February 05 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,541 |
6 AL 4 V
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| MattR |
Feb 4 2006, 11:29 PM
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#19
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 3,279 Joined: 23-January 04 From: SF Bay Area Member No.: 1,589 Region Association: Northern California |
Why? These are very valid questions. I think this thread is really interesting. Furthermore, Chris is putting in some really good input. He's got a bunch of knowledge for someone his age. I'm learning lots from reading this thread, and you may pick something up if you werent so closed minded to what Chris has to say. |
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| URY914 |
Feb 4 2006, 11:39 PM
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#20
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I built the lightest 914 in the history of mankind. Group: Members Posts: 121,116 Joined: 3-February 03 From: Jacksonville, FL Member No.: 222 Region Association: None |
Matt, I'm deleting my post. I shouldn't have.... Paul |
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