Why not the WRX? Options

[airsix]

Ok, time to get serious...

Fiid, Watts, wake up! About these JDM engines you bought... Here are some questions:

1) What remains of the engine wiring harness are left?
2) Have you found a source for complete harnesses or are you building from scratch (see my comments below)
3) I assume the turbos were still on the engines, right?
4) What is the overal condition? Any broken or bent stuff?
5) What's missing that you hoped/exepected to be included? (sensors, etc.)

I'm seriously thinking about doing this, but...
1) I don't want to build a whole harness from scratch. I did that once and don't want to do it again. I'll do a partial, or a splice, but doing the whole thing from scratch BITES.
2) I'm thinking of starting with a stock or pre-programmed (Link) ECU (soloracer, the Link is a stand-alone, not piggyback). Stock or Link ECU + stock harness = lower blood pressure. I'll worry about an aftermarket ECU when I get bored with 250hp, which I hope would take a while. I have a programable ECU in the 914 now, and I'm still messing with it. Stock would be ok for a change.

/me eagerly awaiting responses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif)

-Ben M.

[airsix]

Fiid, Watts, wake up!!! Don't let this thread die off. I gotts to know. (see above)

-Ben M.

[Chris914n6]

Chris, Link system? whats that? Whats VVS stand for?
Also, who needs a/c? And a heater? what??

Link system info:
SandStallion

Can't find the manufacturers website link right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

VSS- Vehicle Speed Sensor, now that I think more about it, you probably won't need it. My 300ZX speedo needed it.

A/C and heat are for daily drivers... 914s are supposed to be daily drivers right... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Chris

[fiid]

The engine looms were cut off at the side of the engine - theres plenty of wire for patching a new loom together.

The ECU came with about 12" of wire and thats it.

I did not get the solenoid box with mine.

I am patching together a new harness using the plugs and leads from the old one.

The turbos were on the engine, along with the exhaust "header", intake manifold, injectors, Coils on plug, plugs, throttle body, intercooler, and most of the intake plumbing. All the sensors are there.

I had no idea what to expect. I figured I'd get it pretty much just chopped out of a car which is pretty much what I got. I thought it would be easier to use the stock ecu than it turned out to be.

[airsix]

Cool. That's really not too bad all things considered.

-Ben

[soloracer]

Here is the link to Tony Rigoli dyno runs:

Subaru Dyno Runs

[jonwatts]

I don't recall getting any of the harness but I'll have to look (twas over a year ago). My ECU came with a harness that I need to adapt to this engine. I haven't started on this yet.

Turbos came mounted on the engine along with all other ancillaries. I did get the useless turbo air/solenoid box with mine, I offered it to fiid.

The intercooler I got has more bent fins than straight ones due to rough handling before I got it. I plan on picking up a stock WRX intercooler from Ebay. They are cheap and plentiful from all the IC upgrades people do. It will be a good enough start for what I plan to do with it.

Even if you were to buy an entire JDM front clip I don't know how well it would run since we do not typically have access to 100 RON fuel like they do in Japan. That's what some of these engines require. Ray Hall Turbocharging of Australia makes (I believe) replacement ECUs for Subies. You could look into that.

Ben, my long lost bro, how far along are you on going the 6 route? Don't jump ship if you're close, the jury is still out on how great our conversions will come out. (Ok, they will be great, but so are flat sixes).

[airsix]

Ben, my long lost bro, how far along are you on going the 6 route? Don't jump ship if you're close, the jury is still out on how great our conversions will come out. (Ok, they will be great, but so are flat sixes).

Hey Jon, thanks for joining in.

Six parts I have:
7R 2.7
muffler
early flywheel
engine tin
MIC3 ECU in car and wired.

Six parts missing:
oil lines
oil tank and bits
motor mount
headers

But... the six needs a full rebuild. I figure it will cost at least $4,000 to get the project done IF I do the rebuild myself. And I'll have 220hp at most, no heat, no AC, and no future power increases.

If I do the scooby conversion I'll spend less, not have to do a rebuild, weigh in 100 pounds less, have more power, real heat, AC, less mechanical noise, cheap future power upgrades, and here's a bonus: If I launch a motor it's only $650 for a new one. That's cheap enough that I'm likely to get a spare just for peace of mind. I'm not saying I want to throw around money - I'm just saying that a $650 engine replacement is a lot more affordable than most.

I'm not totally sold yet. And it's not just the money. I keep thinking, if I had two identical cars - except one was EJ20T powered and one had a 2.7 six, which would I enjoy more? I honestly think the scooby-14 would be a better car. Keep in mind that my 914 is my daily driver. The fact that I could have heat, AC, more power ALL FOR LESS WEIGHT really has my attention.

Lastly, class rules are not really a concern any more. There is no PCA or POC racing where I live. I autocross with the local club, which just adopted the SCCA classing system. Under their old classing system I was treated very farely, but now I'm a hair's breadth from being knocked into modified class. Whether I go six or scooby that's where I'll end up any way so it makes no difference from that standpoint. Resale value isn't an issue eather. I don't plan to sell, and if I did there's no market here anyway. I'd be lucky to get Craig Laughlin to come up from Lake Oswego to buy it for a song. (I think he plays a magic flute or something that makes people just hand over their pink slips. he he). So, anyway, the car is for me. So I figure set the snobbery aside and pick the powerplant that's going to make me grin the most for the longest and cheapest.


-Ben M. (ready for the flames)

[jonwatts]

Ben you Ignorant Slut (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fighting19.gif)

No seriously, that sounds like reasonable, uh, reasoning. I'm always concerned a little bit about resale value only because I've sold cars that I swore I never would. This hasn't stopped me from dumping stupid amounts of money into them, I just have the appropriately sized guilt to go along with it.

Before I bought my engine I was doing all the required research and one of the things that led me to the twin turbo version of the EJ20 was the fact that Subaru hasn't been making it for nearly as long as the single turbo version. The only difference I remember is that the twin turbo has slightly higher compression than the single turbo version (like 8.5:1 vs 7.5:1). One of you industrious wannabies should figure out all the differences between early and late EJ20 engines to see how much it really matters. What I'm getting at is that you may not know exactly what version (or vintage) of the engine you're getting for $650 until it shows up on your doorstep. This was a big enough deal to me at the time to pop the extra $500 for the known engine. $1200 for 300+ HP is still great bang-for-your-buck compared to what we're used to with german engineered HP. Would I do the same thing again next time? I don't know yet.

Sheesh, this is why I only post smart-assed one liners. Real posts are too much work.

[airsix]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying - the single-turbo motor has quite a few fariants. Who know's which one you'd end up recieving. That is a bit of a concern and I was already mulling that over. I'm such a tight-wad though...

Hey, I found a forum that is just for vw-subaru conversions. Not a lot of traffic, but there's a little.
http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions...ewforum?forum=3

Enjoy. I'm going out to the garage. (yes, to work on/drive 914)


-Ben M.

[airsix]

Watts, Fiid,

Question #1:
Have you guys done any work yet on a cooling system? That's really where I'd like to start. The rest should be more straight forward.

Question #2:
Was the knock sensor ignition retard controlled by the ECU or was this handled by a separate stand-alone/dedicated controller? I know some scooby's had a separate controller for this that could be retained independant of ECU swaps. I absolutely want to keep this funtionality, but my MIC3 ECU won't take a knock sensor input. What are you guys doing?

-Ben M.

[fiid]

I haven't done any cooling system work yet. My plan is:

1) fire it up for less than 10 seconds. (i.e. get ECU and spark to work) Probably set boost to about 7 pounds. I might plumb it into a bucket of ice water for this initial crap.

2) get cooling system into car

3) sort out a motor mount (weld-tastic), and exhuast system.

4) put engine in car.

5) debugging and tuning. My plan is to run it at very low boost until I figure out how to keep it on the road, and can do some brake and tyre upgrades. I should have 200 odd horsepower anyway, so it will still be ridiculous.

6) worry about my transmition and start fork on the 5 lug conversion and fatty tires.

[fiid]

AFAIK - the knock sensor is controlled by the ECU. I am interested in any knowledge that people have on knock sensors, since I would like to get one running with megasquirt-n-edis.

If you want a bulletproof cooling system and you have money to spend, just buy the whole kit from renegade - that will work fine with the subaru motor. I am doing my own because I am cheap and I would like to retain use of the front trunk.

[mightyohm]

I think the knock sensor is like a microphone. The ECU probably takes this signal, amplifies it a lot, filters it, and looks for certain frequencies or patterns that signify engine knock. That is all I know. :-)

[Mueller]

Jeff,

do a search on STF, there is a knock sensor that is supposed to be pretty damn good.....price is in the $$$$ range i think (4 hundred frogskins)

[MRM4418]

AFAIK - the knock sensor is controlled by the ECU. I am interested in any knowledge that people have on knock sensors, since I would like to get one running with megasquirt-n-edis.

If you want a bulletproof cooling system and you have money to spend, just buy the whole kit from renegade - that will work fine with the subaru motor. I am doing my own because I am cheap and I would like to retain use of the front trunk.

what are you thinking about doing for your radiator setup? This is the swap I want to do, and since it would be my daily driver (if I actually do the conversion) keeping cargo space would be a definite plus for me.

[soloracer]

J&S makes an aftermarket knock sensor system. Some of my RX7 Turbo friends have one installed and it seems to work pretty good. It's not cheap though. Their website claims "Subaru's Love J&S Safegaurd". The link is here: J&S Safegaurd

[Mueller]

that's the brand !!!!

at about $500 it's expensive...but it's cheaper than a new engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[airsix]

Why start screwing around with aftermarket knock-sensors when the engine comes with one from the factory? Getting the stock unit to funciton with your chosen ECU would be the best bet since the mounting location and sensor design were chosen by the engineers who designed the motor.

Next question: Variable valve timing (AVCS). Fiid, you've got a stock ECU, so if you wire that up I guess you're good. Jon, what are your plans? Something like Honda VTEC would be a cake walk - it's either on or off, but I was reading up on the AVCS system and it's infinitely adjustable based on solenoid duty cycle. Yikes! Many of the aftermarket ECU's can handle auxiliary inputs and outputs, but I don't know any that will output a variable duty-cycle signal. The more I dig into this the more I am leaning towards a factory ECU or a Link (because it's made for this motor).

Did you guys both get your engines from Nippon Motors? Fidd, did you get the ECU with the motor and are there any assurances that they match? I'm leaning toward the single turbo but I've learned that there were like 8 versions! Were the importers you bought from easy to deal with? I'd like to be able to check engine codes before purchase to be sure of what I was getting, and if an ECU was purchased w/ motor I'd like to be able to confirm that they match.

I hope you guys aren't getting tired of me dragging this thread on. I can't believe I'm the only person falling all over this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

-Ben M.

[Mr.C]

Kennedy sells a shortened pan for their Vanagon conversion kit. It was for the 2.2 out of the Legacy. I found it here http://www.mcn.org/b/roadcow/default.html
Look at "What I drive" and look at the Vanagon conversion. He has a good comparison shot of the before and after with the stock and shortened pan.