I was checking on the net today and you can pick up a WRX motor for about 650 used. This is pretty complete. That would make a great 914 swap. Better turbo, and some cleaning up of the engine wiring and such you could have one bad ass daily driver.

You would still have the flat four and you could over come the limitations of the T4 engine.

Sounds great to me. Somebody please do it and let me drive your car. :-)

From the centerline of the crank they are 4 inches deeper to the bottom of the sump than the 914 motor. A better fit is the Mazda V-6. Steve

http://offroadvw.net/bajawes/linktoV6.htm

Fiid mentioned this over a year ago at a 914 breakfast.

Jen

I was thinking the exact same thing. I actually did a lot of research into which engine to get. The EJ22T was a turbocharged 4 in the early model legacy's. The block is a closed deck design and is supposed to be bulletproof. However, the head needs some work and from what I understand you should replace it with one from a 2.5 or 2.0 engine. However, for stock out of the box the EJ20T is pretty hard to beat. If I didn't get the deal I did on my 3 rotor engine I would probably be buying an EJ20T. Check out these links for Subaru info:

High Horsepower Tuner

NASIOC Forum

Its been done, but does it go weeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

I don't think the sump depth is a problem, it's not any lower then a V8.

From what I have looked at, the challange is the Intercooler plumbing because it will have to be moved from it's stock location over the front of the tranny if you don't want to loose the rear trunk. Still very do-able, just needs to be addressed.

sm

Be nice if I knew what the naked engine looked like? THen I could tell if running a different pan would solve the problem. I remember seeing a bottom end out of one of those one time it looked like they had a nice brace in the water jacket to support the cylinder walls.

I guess the real question is why not?? The WRX is fairly new to the USA, so maybe nobody has gotten around to it....

Like I've said before, find me a wrecked Passat W8 for cheap, cheap and I'll build my next 914...

sm

Fiid is doing a EJ20T, and if all goes well with his transplant (as it is so far) I will be doing that as well.
Light, fast, and modifyable.

Andrew

Yeah - I'm workin on it.

Any updates?
Oh ya, and if you havent seen it..
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...t=ST&f=2&t=9571

Actually, technically Fiid has an EJ20TT (twin turbo). Even though the WRX is fairly new here they have been in Japan for years. There is a good supply of EJ20 engines coming to our shores from there. The new STi engine makes good power but for the price you would be better off buying an old EJ20T and modifying.

well you can do the 2.2l conversion there are ads in the VWprints all the time about T4 conversions.

Oh ya, I keep forgeting to add the extra 't', Too many engine possibilities.. arg

lol

So, what would be the advantage of a single turbo vs a twin turbo

Hmm the twin turbo with little turbo's should spool faster than a single.. Hmm maybe it wouldnt be so bad for auto x...

Anyone have a dyno diagram for a EJ20tt and an EJ20T and heck an EJ20 or any EJ engine's??

Fiid?

Andrew

Brett,
If the oil pan clearance is an issue, do a search on www.dune-buggy.com. Theres several guys over there using the same engine with a modified oil pan for more gound clearance in their rails.

John

Damn...now you guys got me thinkin'. Where can you get these engines on the net for $650?

http://www.nippon-motors.com/Performance%20Engines.htm

So....Fiid, ya got room in your garage right?

I already have two subaru motors in my garage. If I get rid of one, my GF might allow another one in, but she won't park her miata on the street - so you'll have to wait until mine's done.

I recommend getting the WRX motor instead of the Twin turbo... the plumbing for the two turbos just creates extra work, and you can get the same hp out of the single turbo one anyway if you up the boost a little. Plus the single turbo engine is half the cost.

I have the EDIS system up and running and talking to the megasquirt. It's pretty funny how much voltage drop I get on my bench-top PC power supply (I just use it for powering test circuits) when you hook a full ignition system up to it.

I have decided not to flip the intake manifold - it's too hard to get the injectors to clear all the oil plumbing for the turbos - I am planning on getting a big U fitting for the main intake and mounting the intercooler somewhere towards the front. The plumbing for all this will be quite interesting :-)

I don't know yet if the sump depth is going to be a problem or not. I'l sure we can figure something out if it does turn out to the a problem.

More info as I come up with it.

Fiid.

I found a couple of pictures of the bare engine in an Import magazine that I had here. DOean't look like any problem to fit in the 914. I can easily weld up an oil pan out of aluminum that would have a thickness of 2-4 inches. That should get the clearence up enough.

FIID,

Why did you not just run the factory ECU and injection?

Most would like to use the stock ECU. However, not many of the engine importers take the time to properly remove the wiring harness and ECU. Most of them just cut the harness and use a cutting torch to remove the engine.

I have not spoken to Eric in a while, not sure if he still has his Subaru powered 914 or not.....if so, I'm sure the WRX or similar motor would be next on his list of Subaru powerplants

stuffing Subaru engines into a 914....

The oil pan on the flat 6 subaru motor does look pretty deep, but nothing that cannot be "fixed" (1st picture)

It's hard to see from the second picture, but it does not look like the pan drops down too far.....I like the skid ramps he put on the mount

Thanks mike

Yeah that oil pan would be no problem to fix. Just cut the bottom off and make it thinner and wider.

Wonder why he used the six instead of the four.?

he did both...check out his web site and he goes through what it takes to do both.

Like Biosurfer mentioned, he did both, first with a turbo 1.8, then the six......college student, needed a reliable conversion that could be done quickly.......I'm sure he couldv'e done the higher output /4 motor, it was just not in his budget at the time......

now the new 3.0 six in the Outlanders or whatever they are called seems like a neat powerplant, but then you've got the extra weight to deal with.....


I guess it's a trade off as usual...

heavy but "simple" normally asperated 6????
or
lighter but more expensive/complicated turbo /4????

For the last time - Have you ever seen a factory fuel injection brain with all the wires cut one foot from the box??

It has like 80 wires hanging out of it. They are all pretty colours. Some of the sensor wires are shielded. Some of them might be for the security system, air conditioning system, power steering, ABS, etc.

I could spend hours and hours pouring over wiring diagrams trying to decode what each of those is and hook it up to something sensible.

Or I could spend very few hours getting a megasquirt running, during which I might actually learn something useful, and have a lot more fun.

Plus, when the megasquirt system is done, I can jack a laptop into it to diagnose problems, and do further tuning. With the stock ECU, I have no options for diagnosis or tuning. In fact - most of the subaru tuners run aftermarket systems for this exact reason. The stock system might not even run correctly without sensor inputs from the other systems.

There are pics in the other thread.

I don't think the stock stuff is a great solution. These motors are abused a little bit, not all the hoses and plastic pieces make it from Japan complete. Plus they are from Japenese luxury cars. They have lots of gadgets, ABS, advanced noise and pollution control systems.

They have very sophisticated solenoid systems for boost control, boost dumping valves and the like. It is not acceptable to have a blow off valve on a luxury car, so these edge cases are handled extremely elegantly but in a very sophiticated manner. Sure, it is possible to get all this stuff running, but I am after a far more "grit in teeth" experience from my car, and likelyhood is that these control systems aren't designed for peak peak performance anyway.

I'm really not interested in most of that stuff - and most of it doesn't happen in 914s. You really want something more simple and understandable that can be gotten running in a reasonably small amount of time. The megasquirt harness is going to be a breeze to manufacture using the stock pieces I have.

there are also aftermarket computers, maps and simpified harnesses for the sand rail guys. Much easier for those of ten thumb liniage...

Most of the aftermarket solutions I have considered run you 2 large dead presidents or more.

The Megasquirt has cost me uh .... $300 or so with the EDIS setup. Mueller helped a lot by turning that hub up for me for the crankfire trigger. I will spend some money on ancillary crap like plug leads and such, but you'd need that with an aftermarket solution anyway.

The megasquirt on my 1.7 continues to run pretty damned well. It could use a little more time with the oxygen sensor, but I am investing my time in hooking up the new engine. I would also like to lose the AAR, MPS (weight), rehost the fuel pump area, replace the injector seals, and lose the decel valve, but none of those things seem to really be holding the car up any.

keep doing all the research, I'm sure I'll buy you a beer or two after I pick your brain on all your secrets.

Steve,

Would you know how well the Mazda V-6 would fit from experience? I have one as well as the ECU and this is what I planned on putting in a 914 when I get one. I haven't had a chance to take measurements of a 914, but since I have an engine on a stand, it would be easy to measure the engine dimensions.


Anyone,

Would anyone know what critical dimensions to measure on my engine to know if it would fit nicely in a 914 (remember, I don't have a 914 to measure myself)? Also, I wonder about oil supply problems with a front drive engine that is mounted longitudinally. Are there any issues there like when going up or down hills?

Andrew

The oil is under pressure, gravity shouldn't matter.

I have a friend with an 03 wrx, and he has driven it pretty hard, and I can honestly say I dont like the power band. It feels like there is NOTHING until 3k. You have to be pretty rough with your engine to get good 0-60 times. It has a good turbo from the factory, but it doesnt pull as much as a toyota turbo, I dont think. Certainly you can do stuff to the engine to make it better, but Im saying from the factory, that 250 hp is a bit decieving. Go to www.wrxfanatics.com if you want info on modifying your wrx engine.

I meant that maybe the design of the oil pan/baffling or the oil pickup tube location might depend on whether the engine is mounted longitudinally or transversely. Is it posssible that if the engine is rotated to an orientation that it wasn't designed for that the oil pickup tube would be located in a spot that would be starved for oil in some situations?

Is this a non-issue? I hope so, but I would like to know for sure.

Andrew

figure that pretty much any engine smaller or the same size as a Chevy V8 minus the waterpump will fit in the engine compartment of a 914...

BTW...the Mazda V6 in a 914 has already been done...the guy used the V6 from a Ford Probe GT which is the same engine...

Don't know who owns it now, the guy had the complete car for sale for about $800.00.....as far as conversions go, it's a funky engine that not too many people know, so it's going to be very hard to resell....
Steve Malm put a 300ZX V6 in his car, but the Nissan is a more popular brand and seems more "acceptable" for a conversion (that and the car was fast and sounded awesome !!!!)

OK. Makes sense. It's just that somebody mentioned a Suburu motor might be a problem, and it is certainly smaller than a V8.

I know the engine isn't well known, but I am very familiar with it. I'm not worried that it won't re-sell, since I plan on keeping it a long time.

Andrew

I am looking at the Mazda V-6 concept as we speak. The KL motor from the Probe GT, MX-6, etc is an awesome little engine....4-cam, all aluminum, factory forged crank, 4 bolt mains, and only weighs about 60lbs more than the Type-4. The US version (KL) puts out appx 160 hp stock w/ about the same peak torque...and the torque line is FLAT. The JDM version (KL-ZE) has higher compression (10.0 to 1) bigger intake runners, etc and puts out 195 to 200hp stock...and you can pick them up w/ 50K miles from the Jap engine importers for about $1000.

There is some development in-work for an intake w/ individual throttle bodies that should easily take the power (of the KL-ZE) into the 220's w/out having to do anything internally to the motor.

check it out: http://rs-productions.com/RSP_Motors/tech/.../sae-920677.htm

I'm familiar with the Probe GT with the V6...in fact I preferred the GT of mine over an '84 911 that I almost traded it for.......

Very fun and quick car.......that motor loved to rev !!!!!

It can handle 300HP with stock internals, more with different rods and pistons,with a redline of around 8000 (officially only 7000).

Wait a minute, isn't this thread about the WRX engine? We never get off topic around here, do we?

Now about my ex-girlfriend.................


Andrew

Fiid, I'm thinking there might be enough room to put the intercooler directly above the intake on top of the engine, then just a short U pipe to go from the intercooler to the throttle body. I won't know for sure until my engine mount is done in a few weeks.

Uh - yeah - this is all about the turbos you use along with the intake resonances etc.

The stock WRX is about passing emmissions. I believe that subaru intentionally messes with the power band of their motors by creating wierd plenum chamber in the intake plumbing to stop the motors running too loud, and to curb emmissions at specific points in the power band.

The twin turbo engine is designed to spool up by about 1k rpm and keep the juices flowing all the way to the redline - it is designed for powering the luxury version of the Legacy wagon, so it has more torque than Letterman and Leno from very low RPMs. I'd be willing to bet that a better turbo selection and less restrictive plumbing in a smog exempt car will yield the low end grunt you are looking for.

I test drove a WRX and wasn't that impressed with it's low end for similar reasons - the 2.5 in my car pulls from idle especially with a K&N and straight through intake plumbing. Don't forget though that a WRX or WRX Wagon will weigh significantly more that a 914, so you won't be hurting nearly as badly as the familr cars are.

I am not a huge fan of the V engines as they pick the weight up in the car. IMHO - one of our advantages over the Elise, and other midengined cars is that all our engine weight it right on the bearing line. I am not all that impressed by 300HP from a larger engine - it's 300HP with more weight and more displacement. The added weight detracts from the handling, and it's not like you need tons of low end grunt in a car that weighs 2000 pounds.

Bet you my 2.0 litre weighs less than your 2.0 litre

Actually I'm curious to see what our engines weigh - with turbo's. I weighed my truck with a full tank of fuel, the engine & transmission in the back and my 90 lb German Shepard in the cab. It weighed out at 2660 kilograms. I plan to unload the engine and transmission, reload the dog, refill the tank and head back to the scales to see what number I get. Hopefully I'll get a general idea of what it weighs.

Anyone have the engine weights for rotories and subaru's on file somewhere? Which do you guys think weighs less? How about the center of gravity issue. Would these two engines be close?

A friend of mine has an STI and that motor is unbelievable. It has a strong amount of boost and gets on it very fast. That motor would be a kick in a 914.

The rotary is almost certainly lighter than the subaru and would maintain a roughle equivalent center of gravity. Have you seen one? It's basically a slightly elongated O shape.

I would run a rotary except I know nothing about them and personally I like turbo 4 bangers (lotus) and I like flat 4s (914s and subarus). The rotary is a better engine though - although I hear that the rotor tips wear out.

The rotary is basically a beer keg. I would agree that a 2 rotor model should easily be lighter than a EJ20 but mine is 3 rotor. The extra rotor and housing might bring things a lot closer in the weight department. I also have an RX7 and most of my friends are rotary guys so I have seen a few to say the least. I think that when you say the rotor tips wear out you are talking about the apex seals (the equivalent of rings in a piston engine). Most rotary failures that I have seen are one of 3 things - a blown water seal (head gasket to piston guys), blown apex seal (rings) or a bearing siezed on the eccentric shaft (crank).

Have you weighed your subie motor?

fiid, i totally agree. I know with mods the sube engine can get really powerful, and even stock it has some grunt. But I just dont like the fact that cars are to the point where they arent fun from the factory. To have that much lag is just rediculous. Its a tuner's dream, and maybe subaru designed it with that in mind, but with a car nearing 30 grand it seems kinda outrageous.

The STi is close to 30 grand. I have never driven one. The standard WRX is 24,111 from Cars direct - 25,170 MSRP.

If you don't like how cars come from the factory, write to your congressman. We have all sorts of ridiculous emissions and other laws that prevent us getting all the fun cars. Lotus has been a victim of this for years.

Someone figured out that if we gave everyone in California a brand new Ford Expedition, our overall vehicle emissions would be cut by 80%. The smog laws we do have just aren't dealing with the problem. I don't even think the 30+ year old cars are too blame for that - they are just an easy target. The politicians are busy trying to bust all the groups that look bad but aren't significant instead of dealing with the real problem.

I have not weighed the subaru engine - I guess the best approach will be to weigh the car once it's in :-). I think our bathroom scales top out at 300lbs :-)

In other newz:

I am thinking of mounting the Power Steering pump on the motor and plumbing the power out to to the return line - basically - I am only interested in having the pulley there for purposes of tensioning correctly. Do you guys see any reason why I shouldn't do that? Is there something else I could do with it that would be cool?

It's not turbo lag, it's turbo sizing; and it was a design choice. The WRX is a rally car, not a stop light drag racer. If they wanted impressive 0-60 times they would have put a smaller turbo on it, but then top end power would have suffered. This is basic turbo theory.

Fiid has the same engine I do. I'm dropping the two turbochargers in favor of a ball-bearing turbo that will provide up to 350 hp. Not sure if I'll be able to do 1st gear burnouts but I don't want to with the 901 tranny I'm starting out with.