Do you need the PS pump for proper belt positioning or just tensioning? Ribbed belts come in all different lengths so I would think you (and I) could find one that would fit. All I'm concerned with is driving the alternator and perhaps the A/C compressor if I decide to add A/C someday.

Positioning. I was trying to get away with not having to find one. A/C is easy to put on later as it has it's own belt.
Have you removed the A/C and PS pumps from their brackets? I stripped mine last night and started putting the alternator back on.

Its so kewl.

I dont see why you would put the PS pump on.. Its just taking away hp..
But then again, what do I know..

John I didnt know you hade a EJ20 engine!

How are you going on the project? Any pics?

What do you have into the conversion so far $$ wise, if you want to say it.. because I am very seriously considering it.
Or if you dont want to say in public you could pm me..

Thanks
Andrew

Really, I thought I had mentioned it a few times. Like at the (never to happen again) SSI swap meet or Parts Heaven last yet.

Anyway, I bought my engine over a year ago and have been progressing very slowly just because of being busy with work and working on the entire rest of the car at the same time. I had Kennedy make me an adapter plate and modify my flywheel. I also bought the clutch kit from them. I have an Autronic ECU that I bought a few years ago for the turbo T4 project I was originally going to do. This ECU handles fuel and spark and will work with the subaru motor nicely.

Dollar-wise you can pretty much figure out from all the websites. I'm a little afraid to add it all up and I still have a bit to spend on fabrication, the cooling system, etc.

Fiid, one of these days Im going to swing by and check out your motor and stuff...

The subaru 4cyl turbo engines are within 20-30lbs of a 2.0 4cyl (can't remeber if it is lighter, or heavier - my guess is heavier). But still less weight than a 6!

Ah, just remembered that I saw a personal webpage of someone who put a 2.x NA engine in his VW bus, he had a custom oil pan & sump that was a few inches shorter. I think it was a kennedy (for VW BUS/Sub) product, but am not sure.

147 kg for EJ20 = 324 lbs

two liter 6 = 387 lbs
type 4= 277 lbs

Are those weights for a short block or an engine with all accessories (manifolds, turbo's, air conditioning, alternator, etc.)?

the porsche weights are from dave and the subaru came from one of the web sites
listed previously in this thread and the conversion came from ask Jeeves

A couple of bits from the new edition of Ludvigsen's "Excellence Was Expected". These are relevant to some recent threads I've seen around here.

Engine weights: Ludvigsen lists the 914-6 engine's weight as 387 lbs, and says that it was 110 lbs heavier than the 914-4's engine. Which would put the latter at 277 lbs.

from DD

I gotta bump this thread. It's my new facination.

There seems to be quite a bit of interest in this swap. We ought to document the process and turn it into a how-to. With each passing hour I'm getting further sold on the idea of doing this swap myself. Hmmm......

-Ben

Hey Ben.....

it is temting isn't it????

I talked to Fiid about a real, real crazy idea (for most people, it's a normal thought process for me, LOL)

I can only have 1 914, but why can I not have 2 powerplants???

A good running 2.0 type IV based engine for PCA events which I would still like to partipate in and then a more wild turbo subaru engine for non-PCA events and possibly daily driving.....

With quick disconnect fittings for fluids and electricals, this could be a solution to a problem that regular people don't have

The radiator fluid could be drained and reused or even left in the system....the additional weight should not be a big deal since it's in the front and low.

I already have a couple of extra sideshifter transmissions looking for mate, so that is no problem....now I just need to "sneak" a subaru motor into the garage........

For fuel and spark, the megasquirt is cheap enough to have one ECU for each engine, or as long as you remember, just download the proper MAP for the particular engine being run that week.

I pick up my next "temporary" engine this week, a poor misunderstood 1.8.......hopefully it'll stay in the car longer than 2 days like my last one...........

Interesting idea... but too much work for my interest. However, the MIC3 ECU I'm running does store two maps. I can just flip a toggle switch on the dash to switch between them. That would make swaping engines back and forth even easier. Nah... If I switched to non-Porsche power I don't think I'd look back. If I jump it'll be with both feet. I have quite a bit of the -6 conversion bits gathered and I'm waffling back and forth. Scooby conversion is gaining in the polls though. Less weight, more power, less cost, less mechaninical noise, better economy, real heater, real AC, cheaper future power increases... Oh, look there, it just gained a few more points.

-Ben M.

I know you guys will hate this, but what about another megasquirt group buy? I dont know how to obtain them... Anyone have a sight?

I swear one of you guys figure out how much its costing you to do the swap! I mean, come on... You have all these people wondering.

I have no clue what all is involved in it.


Andrew

engine 1-3k
link comuputer and harness 1.5
kennedy engr .6
cooling .7
exhaust w/ header 1

some fab work home welder
total $5-7k



Close????

Andrew:

go here for the Megasquirt...they do thier own group buys every few months........


The might even have kits available right now

Megasquirt

Pretty darn close Greg....I think it can be done for under $2000 if one is willing to do a lot of thier own work and use as many used/autowrecker parts.

it might not be pretty, but once on the road and running, it can always be spruced up later on......

Mike I like that number better!

But how could you do it for so low?
I mean, you have to buy the adapter from kenedy.. 600
Engine is 1k
cooling. Well find a cheep radiator, and some lines.. 200?
What about mounting the engine? What are you guys doing to mount the engine Fiid, John?
Might be able to use the stock computer.. but probably just better to use a megasquirt. soo.. 200 or more for that..
There is an exhust guy that quoted my dad 300 bucks to run a complete exhaust from the back of his turbo.. We will be doing buisness. (and he's running everyone else out of buisness) Soo maybe 500 for a really nice exhaust, but I can do that myself. so X that

600+1000+200+200+random 200 for suplies

2200 Close to your number, Mike..

Man it looks like Im going to need a job... If only I was 18 (then I could work in a shop or anything car related, younger than that, nothing )

Andrew

I based my estimate on the $650 price for the single turbo motor.....


i worked at Baskin-Robbins Ice Cream from 16 to almost 18.....chicks love ice cream, LOL

Where is everyone getting this $1k number for the engine? I saw $650. (unless you're talking the twin turbo)

-Ben M.

Im talking twin turbo. The twin turbo has better low end hp, because of the smaller turbo's. and i'll be autoxing the car..

So ya.

Andrew

1-3 depending on the engine and or how new and or wrs or sti clips starting to show for 7-8 with tranny and brakes.

Total 2-3 for the more talented. higher for more horse and or newer plug and play parts

If you will heave the stock turbo and piping system out in the street and start from scratch and build a system right, yes it will cost a little more but, you can have a trubo that spools at idle if necessary. I haven't driven a WRX so I don't know about lag but I have a feeling they tried to do away with it. I heard they lose out on the top end turbo not big enough.

Take the turbo I am building for the honda. It is a T3 with a 48 exhaust side and .63 compressor. This little mother should spool really fast and supply a bunch more air than the stock .42 compressor side. Plus the equal length manifold that I am building will help get all that exhaust out so I figure it ought to spool around 2500-3000 rpm, right where it needs to. Run lots of boost and a blow off valve and you really shouldn't have a problem. Oh yeah get an external wastegate also.

I found the 2.0 WRX motor for a little under 700 dollars. I figure for under 4000 you can have one kick ass car. should smoke plenty of things on the road. Then you puke the tranny but hey that can be over come as well.

So a small exhaust side on a turbo will allow for quick spool up.. but it is moving more air with a bigger cold side.. How can you get a turbo to spool up fast? Asside from ball bearings..

2.5k-3k. Thats the spool up range, then after that its all spooled up (put simply) and the hp continues to increase or is 2.5-3k your hp range?

Trying to understand what your building..

914 post.. woo hoo (im sick, physically, so im not too excited..)

I think I figured around 4k completed. It's the little things that will add up.
- the fan shroud
$100+ for fans
$100 in radiator hose
$25 in clamps
$25 in heater hose
$150 in a/c lines
$100 in exhaust pieces & generic muffler
$65 for VSS
$20 in wire, relays, fuses, etc.

And a few bucks for the motor mount, shift rod mod and hopefully not to many changes along the way.
You'll replace parts as you go, trust me

I had the Link system at 1500 and the Subie engine at 650.

Just for the record... WORTH EVERY PENNY

Chris

Andrew,

I think the twin turbo Subaru motor is not the way to go.....the plumbing is a nightmare and the turbos are oddball units with no real support at all. A single turbo can be built to offer your low end power just as easy if not easier with the way the Subaru is.......the money saved could be used more wisely for other parts of the conversion..........

" So a small exhaust side on a turbo will allow for quick spool up.. but it is moving more air with a bigger cold side.. How can you get a turbo to spool up fast? Asside from ball bearings..

2.5k-3k. Thats the spool up range, then after that its all spooled up (put simply) and the hp continues to increase or is 2.5-3k your hp range?"

The smaller the turbine side the faster the turbo will spool. Ball bearings are great but until the price comes down they are pretty much out of my budget. The next time you are driving your car watch the tach and you will get a better idea of what rpm you run on the street. This is where you want your turbo to be spooled. Once is it wound up it contiunues to increase HP and torque until the wategate opens and stops the fun. The turbo I am using is a hybrid that will give a fast spool for a good drivablilty and major power in the uper rpms. Too large of a turbine will slow the spool until a later rpm, thus creating the lag that you are concerned about. Fine for front wheel drive drag racing, but not much fun for the street.

I want the turbo fully spooled by 3000-3500 rpms. making the planned 15-18 lbs of boost at the midrange where torque will go through the roof. Yeah I know can't hook front driver, I'll just get em from a roll. 350-400hp should make for an undrivable Civic.

Porsche went to two turbos because ina road racing situation a huge turbo (required to make the big HP) had horrible lag. it is very hard to drive an on/off switch at the limit. With two smaller turbos the transisiton between boost and no boost was much smoother.

I would like to build a twin turbo 914-4 using a couple of really small IHI Rh5b turbos. They will spool really fast. Until there are better heads for the 4 cylinder I won't bother.

Mueller, Ya know, I was thinking about this, and I think your right. I could use that extra money for the conversion. Or shipping cost of the engine, or whatever. Plus, when I beef up or get a better trani, a new turbo will support a good nother 100-200 hp. A freeflowing exhaust, and freeflowing intake will allow the turbo to spool quite quickly. So I guess you've convinced me, or ive convinced myself.. Anyone have dino's for the EJ20T and TT engines?? I'd like to see the numbers and where that hp is made.



Chris, Link system? whats that? Whats VVS stand for?
Also, who needs a/c? And a heater? what??


Andrew

The Link system is a piggyback ECU (I don't believe it is a stand alone but I could be wrong). I would suggest something along the lines of a Haltech E6X or Electromotive product instead. The Haltech even runs the stock Subaru ignition. Both of these are stand alones and in the case of the Haltech it would run you around $1200 US with a wiring harness and sensors.

For dyno sheets do a search for Tony Rigoli Products. I posted the link once here but don't have it saved.

Ok, time to get serious...

Fiid, Watts, wake up! About these JDM engines you bought... Here are some questions:

1) What remains of the engine wiring harness are left?
2) Have you found a source for complete harnesses or are you building from scratch (see my comments below)
3) I assume the turbos were still on the engines, right?
4) What is the overal condition? Any broken or bent stuff?
5) What's missing that you hoped/exepected to be included? (sensors, etc.)

I'm seriously thinking about doing this, but...
1) I don't want to build a whole harness from scratch. I did that once and don't want to do it again. I'll do a partial, or a splice, but doing the whole thing from scratch BITES.
2) I'm thinking of starting with a stock or pre-programmed (Link) ECU (soloracer, the Link is a stand-alone, not piggyback). Stock or Link ECU + stock harness = lower blood pressure. I'll worry about an aftermarket ECU when I get bored with 250hp, which I hope would take a while. I have a programable ECU in the 914 now, and I'm still messing with it. Stock would be ok for a change.

/me eagerly awaiting responses.

-Ben M.

Fiid, Watts, wake up!!! Don't let this thread die off. I gotts to know. (see above)

-Ben M.

Link system info:
SandStallion

Can't find the manufacturers website link right now

VSS- Vehicle Speed Sensor, now that I think more about it, you probably won't need it. My 300ZX speedo needed it.

A/C and heat are for daily drivers... 914s are supposed to be daily drivers right...

Chris

The engine looms were cut off at the side of the engine - theres plenty of wire for patching a new loom together.

The ECU came with about 12" of wire and thats it.

I did not get the solenoid box with mine.

I am patching together a new harness using the plugs and leads from the old one.

The turbos were on the engine, along with the exhaust "header", intake manifold, injectors, Coils on plug, plugs, throttle body, intercooler, and most of the intake plumbing. All the sensors are there.

I had no idea what to expect. I figured I'd get it pretty much just chopped out of a car which is pretty much what I got. I thought it would be easier to use the stock ecu than it turned out to be.

Cool. That's really not too bad all things considered.

-Ben

Here is the link to Tony Rigoli dyno runs:

Subaru Dyno Runs

I don't recall getting any of the harness but I'll have to look (twas over a year ago). My ECU came with a harness that I need to adapt to this engine. I haven't started on this yet.

Turbos came mounted on the engine along with all other ancillaries. I did get the useless turbo air/solenoid box with mine, I offered it to fiid.

The intercooler I got has more bent fins than straight ones due to rough handling before I got it. I plan on picking up a stock WRX intercooler from Ebay. They are cheap and plentiful from all the IC upgrades people do. It will be a good enough start for what I plan to do with it.

Even if you were to buy an entire JDM front clip I don't know how well it would run since we do not typically have access to 100 RON fuel like they do in Japan. That's what some of these engines require. Ray Hall Turbocharging of Australia makes (I believe) replacement ECUs for Subies. You could look into that.

Ben, my long lost bro, how far along are you on going the 6 route? Don't jump ship if you're close, the jury is still out on how great our conversions will come out. (Ok, they will be great, but so are flat sixes).

Hey Jon, thanks for joining in.

Six parts I have:
7R 2.7
muffler
early flywheel
engine tin
MIC3 ECU in car and wired.

Six parts missing:
oil lines
oil tank and bits
motor mount
headers

But... the six needs a full rebuild. I figure it will cost at least $4,000 to get the project done IF I do the rebuild myself. And I'll have 220hp at most, no heat, no AC, and no future power increases.

If I do the scooby conversion I'll spend less, not have to do a rebuild, weigh in 100 pounds less, have more power, real heat, AC, less mechanical noise, cheap future power upgrades, and here's a bonus: If I launch a motor it's only $650 for a new one. That's cheap enough that I'm likely to get a spare just for peace of mind. I'm not saying I want to throw around money - I'm just saying that a $650 engine replacement is a lot more affordable than most.

I'm not totally sold yet. And it's not just the money. I keep thinking, if I had two identical cars - except one was EJ20T powered and one had a 2.7 six, which would I enjoy more? I honestly think the scooby-14 would be a better car. Keep in mind that my 914 is my daily driver. The fact that I could have heat, AC, more power ALL FOR LESS WEIGHT really has my attention.

Lastly, class rules are not really a concern any more. There is no PCA or POC racing where I live. I autocross with the local club, which just adopted the SCCA classing system. Under their old classing system I was treated very farely, but now I'm a hair's breadth from being knocked into modified class. Whether I go six or scooby that's where I'll end up any way so it makes no difference from that standpoint. Resale value isn't an issue eather. I don't plan to sell, and if I did there's no market here anyway. I'd be lucky to get Craig Laughlin to come up from Lake Oswego to buy it for a song. (I think he plays a magic flute or something that makes people just hand over their pink slips. he he). So, anyway, the car is for me. So I figure set the snobbery aside and pick the powerplant that's going to make me grin the most for the longest and cheapest.


-Ben M. (ready for the flames)

Ben you Ignorant Slut

No seriously, that sounds like reasonable, uh, reasoning. I'm always concerned a little bit about resale value only because I've sold cars that I swore I never would. This hasn't stopped me from dumping stupid amounts of money into them, I just have the appropriately sized guilt to go along with it.

Before I bought my engine I was doing all the required research and one of the things that led me to the twin turbo version of the EJ20 was the fact that Subaru hasn't been making it for nearly as long as the single turbo version. The only difference I remember is that the twin turbo has slightly higher compression than the single turbo version (like 8.5:1 vs 7.5:1). One of you industrious wannabies should figure out all the differences between early and late EJ20 engines to see how much it really matters. What I'm getting at is that you may not know exactly what version (or vintage) of the engine you're getting for $650 until it shows up on your doorstep. This was a big enough deal to me at the time to pop the extra $500 for the known engine. $1200 for 300+ HP is still great bang-for-your-buck compared to what we're used to with german engineered HP. Would I do the same thing again next time? I don't know yet.

Sheesh, this is why I only post smart-assed one liners. Real posts are too much work.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying - the single-turbo motor has quite a few fariants. Who know's which one you'd end up recieving. That is a bit of a concern and I was already mulling that over. I'm such a tight-wad though...

Hey, I found a forum that is just for vw-subaru conversions. Not a lot of traffic, but there's a little.
http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions...ewforum?forum=3

Enjoy. I'm going out to the garage. (yes, to work on/drive 914)


-Ben M.

Watts, Fiid,

Question #1:
Have you guys done any work yet on a cooling system? That's really where I'd like to start. The rest should be more straight forward.

Question #2:
Was the knock sensor ignition retard controlled by the ECU or was this handled by a separate stand-alone/dedicated controller? I know some scooby's had a separate controller for this that could be retained independant of ECU swaps. I absolutely want to keep this funtionality, but my MIC3 ECU won't take a knock sensor input. What are you guys doing?

-Ben M.

I haven't done any cooling system work yet. My plan is:

1) fire it up for less than 10 seconds. (i.e. get ECU and spark to work) Probably set boost to about 7 pounds. I might plumb it into a bucket of ice water for this initial crap.

2) get cooling system into car

3) sort out a motor mount (weld-tastic), and exhuast system.

4) put engine in car.

5) debugging and tuning. My plan is to run it at very low boost until I figure out how to keep it on the road, and can do some brake and tyre upgrades. I should have 200 odd horsepower anyway, so it will still be ridiculous.

6) worry about my transmition and start fork on the 5 lug conversion and fatty tires.

AFAIK - the knock sensor is controlled by the ECU. I am interested in any knowledge that people have on knock sensors, since I would like to get one running with megasquirt-n-edis.

If you want a bulletproof cooling system and you have money to spend, just buy the whole kit from renegade - that will work fine with the subaru motor. I am doing my own because I am cheap and I would like to retain use of the front trunk.

I think the knock sensor is like a microphone. The ECU probably takes this signal, amplifies it a lot, filters it, and looks for certain frequencies or patterns that signify engine knock. That is all I know. :-)

Jeff,

do a search on STF, there is a knock sensor that is supposed to be pretty damn good.....price is in the $$$$ range i think (4 hundred frogskins)

what are you thinking about doing for your radiator setup? This is the swap I want to do, and since it would be my daily driver (if I actually do the conversion) keeping cargo space would be a definite plus for me.

J&S makes an aftermarket knock sensor system. Some of my RX7 Turbo friends have one installed and it seems to work pretty good. It's not cheap though. Their website claims "Subaru's Love J&S Safegaurd". The link is here: J&S Safegaurd

that's the brand !!!!

at about $500 it's expensive...but it's cheaper than a new engine

Why start screwing around with aftermarket knock-sensors when the engine comes with one from the factory? Getting the stock unit to funciton with your chosen ECU would be the best bet since the mounting location and sensor design were chosen by the engineers who designed the motor.

Next question: Variable valve timing (AVCS). Fiid, you've got a stock ECU, so if you wire that up I guess you're good. Jon, what are your plans? Something like Honda VTEC would be a cake walk - it's either on or off, but I was reading up on the AVCS system and it's infinitely adjustable based on solenoid duty cycle. Yikes! Many of the aftermarket ECU's can handle auxiliary inputs and outputs, but I don't know any that will output a variable duty-cycle signal. The more I dig into this the more I am leaning towards a factory ECU or a Link (because it's made for this motor).

Did you guys both get your engines from Nippon Motors? Fidd, did you get the ECU with the motor and are there any assurances that they match? I'm leaning toward the single turbo but I've learned that there were like 8 versions! Were the importers you bought from easy to deal with? I'd like to be able to check engine codes before purchase to be sure of what I was getting, and if an ECU was purchased w/ motor I'd like to be able to confirm that they match.

I hope you guys aren't getting tired of me dragging this thread on. I can't believe I'm the only person falling all over this.

-Ben M.

Kennedy sells a shortened pan for their Vanagon conversion kit. It was for the 2.2 out of the Legacy. I found it here http://www.mcn.org/b/roadcow/default.html
Look at "What I drive" and look at the Vanagon conversion. He has a good comparison shot of the before and after with the stock and shortened pan.