Motor tear down Options

[lsintampa]

One more thing that I thought was ODD.

When I did put the tranny on there is a nut that goes onto a stud that is right behind the fork where the cable attaches.

The fork is SO close to that stud, that it is next to impossible to get the nut on it.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

[Bartlett 914]

FOUND IT.

The clutch fork (release fork) is riding on the pressure plate.

Question now is WHY???

Also, it's common for people to "shim" the clutch lever ball stud with a washer when material is removed from the flywheel. This returns the original amount of leverage to the lever, but it is possible they shimmed it too much? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Good find! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Maybe they shimmed this for the old flywheel. Now it is a new one and doesn't need them.

[lsintampa]

Where would I find shims?

I took the fork off and there is a ball cup in the fork (for a bushing) that fits on a ball, then the "catch" that hooks under the ball that the retaining bolt attaches to.

So with the fork removed, there wasn't anything other than:

T.O. bearing and the bushing for them
The fork itself
The latch
Bolt and washer
Cup bushing (in the back of the fork) that slips over the ball

I don't see any shims. Would they shim the thing behind the flywheel???

IDK, my math tells me it NEEDS to be shimmed... in other words, the fork needs to be pushed back towards the rear of the car a bit. ADDING a shim behind the TO bearding would do that, no?

[lsintampa]

Heard from the PO

This is the flywheel that was used.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-215mm-...0939970866?pt=V

Along with the clutch and pressure plate that came with it, when he (PO) bought the car.

[lsintampa]

FOUND IT.

The clutch fork (release fork) is riding on the pressure plate.

Question now is WHY???

Also, it's common for people to "shim" the clutch lever ball stud with a washer when material is removed from the flywheel. This returns the original amount of leverage to the lever, but it is possible they shimmed it too much? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Good find! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Maybe they shimmed this for the old flywheel. Now it is a new one and doesn't need them.

AHH, I read what you said again. In my mind, if I were to shim it, I'd put a shim behind the TO bearing - moving it forward and the fork back.

But shims behind the ball would push the fork forward and the TO bearing back.

Found this. So is one a shim and one a washer? I need to toss one or both?

What a drama this has been.

BTW - my end play is fine, checked it today.

[ThePaintedMan]

Found this. So is one a shim and one a washer? I need to toss one or both?

What a drama this has been.

BTW - my end play is fine, checked it today.

The shim would go behind the ball stud, NOTHING should be behind the throwout bearing. Try it with only one of those washers under the ball stud and see if the fork still rubs on the clutch at full engagement.

[lsintampa]

Found this. So is one a shim and one a washer? I need to toss one or both?

What a drama this has been.

BTW - my end play is fine, checked it today.

The shim would go behind the ball stud, NOTHING should be behind the throwout bearing. Try it with only one of those washers under the ball stud and see if the fork still rubs on the clutch at full engagement.

PET shows a washer behind the ball stud. Looks like the shim is the thicker one.

Anybody need a ball socket shim?

[lsintampa]

I took out the thicker of the two "shims" or "washers" and put the tranny back on.

I can turn the motor by hand, but I can still hear light scraping of that fork on the pressure plate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the TO bearing always ride on the pressure plate?

OR

Should I have some play in the fork with the tranny mounted? I read somewhere that there should be about 1/2" of play. I nave no play and the fork actually is in the way for me to get that bottom nut on easily.

Anyway, I can either remove the only remaining washer and pick up a tab more room, or I can leave it and let it wear on it's own.

Not sure what this is a symptom of - except a slightly thicker fly wheel than what it should be????

Could the clutch itself be in backwards?

[Spoke]

One more thing that I thought was ODD.

When I did put the tranny on there is a nut that goes onto a stud that is right behind the fork where the cable attaches.

The fork is SO close to that stud, that it is next to impossible to get the nut on it.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

Mine was the same way but I think I had a little more play in the clutch fork than you have. Took like 3 hands to move the fork out of the way while I started the nut.

[ThePaintedMan]

I took out the thicker of the two "shims" or "washers" and put the tranny back on.

I can turn the motor by hand, but I can still hear light scraping of that fork on the pressure plate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the TO bearing always ride on the pressure plate?

OR

Should I have some play in the fork with the tranny mounted? I read somewhere that there should be about 1/2" of play. I nave no play and the fork actually is in the way for me to get that bottom nut on easily.

Anyway, I can either remove the only remaining washer and pick up a tab more room, or I can leave it and let it wear on it's own.

Not sure what this is a symptom of - except a slightly thicker fly wheel than what it should be????

Could the clutch itself be in backwards?

There should be play in the fork with the transmission mounted. It's very possible the clutch is installed upside down, but I don't understand how that would cause the interference with the clutch fork. Either way, it's a good idea to pull off the pressure plate and make sure... unless you really enjoy doing engine/trans drops.

To reinstall it though, you need a clutch alignment tool. I have one you can borrow once I get mine bolted back together (hopefully tonight).

I have a feeling that the flywheel is wrong/too thick though. I don't know what the specs are for them stock. Someone more knowledgeable will probably chime in, or you can do a search.

[carguy914]

Picture shows the clutch is properly installed, the best unknown variable is the pressure plate, is it correct for 2.0 type 4 in a 914?...since we know the flywheel, that came with the car had been machined pretty far and the pivot ball had been shimmed it is possible the PP could be bus or other??

Caution: don't go looking for problems that don't exist!!

Regards,

The last PO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ThePaintedMan]

Picture shows the clutch is properly installed, the best unknown variable is the pressure plate, is it correct for 2.0 type 4 in a 914?...since we know the flywheel, that came with the car had been machined pretty far and the pivot ball had been shimmed it is possible the PP could be bus or other??

Caution: don't go looking for problems that don't exist!!

Regards,

The last PO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I don't want this to sound like a dick comment, but I'm sure it will come out that way, so I apologize ahead of time. There obviously is a problem, so I don't know how we would be looking for one that doesn't exist.

Since you're the previous owner, didn't you supply the engine/trans combo with the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate? If so, why not let us know where you got the components from?

I already mentioned the possibility that this could be bus stuff, but since Len got the car from you, he told me that you set him up with everything to put the car back together. I'm trying to help him, since he's new to these cars, but until we know what the scenario truly is, life has been more difficult.

Feel free to shed some light if you could please. Otherwise, the car is in good shape, and from one 914 owner to another, thanks for taking such good care of it while it was yours.


I still think it's the wrong flywheel, or at least the wrong depth. One of Len's previous posts was to an Ebay ad for a "new" flywheel and this is the disclaimer it had:
"Before Bidding
.
• We cannot guarantee product compatibility. If unsure that this product is correct for your application please ask before bidding and we will do our best to get you the answers needed to get you the correct one by using the ‘Ask a Question’ link."

[lsintampa]

Picture shows the clutch is properly installed, the best unknown variable is the pressure plate, is it correct for 2.0 type 4 in a 914?...since we know the flywheel, that came with the car had been machined pretty far and the pivot ball had been shimmed it is possible the PP could be bus or other??

Caution: don't go looking for problems that don't exist!!

Regards,

The last PO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Not looking for problems that don't exist, just looking for the problem - obviously there is one.

Roger, you've been a great help all along and I appreciate all you've done to help, but I'm still trying to figure out what the current remaining issue(s) is / are.

Thanks,

Len

[carguy914]

Len.

Sounds like your in good hands!!

Best Wishes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[ThePaintedMan]

Roger, I did some more reading and found out a little more on your background and how you came about owning the car. I apologize if I sounded like I didn't think you knew your stuff. It's been my own personal experience with previous owners that makes me so weary of other people's work, so again, I apologize.

However, if you could share what you know about the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate history, that would probably help us. Is it safe to assume when you had the car it wasn't in operating condition? I.e., the engine/trans combo was already split apart?

[lsintampa]

Roger, I did some more reading and found out a little more on your background and how you came about owning the car. I apologize if I sounded like I didn't think you knew your stuff. It's been my own personal experience with previous owners that makes me so weary of other people's work, so again, I apologize.

However, if you could share what you know about the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate history, that would probably help us. Is it safe to assume when you had the car it wasn't in operating condition? I.e., the engine/trans combo was already split apart?

George, when Roger got the car, the motor was IN the car with tranny attached. It had not run in many years however.

The motor and tranny were removed, cleaned, and resealed, tins powder coated, motor had great leak down test results.

The reason the flywheel was replaced is that Roger discovered someone had ground the heads of the old flywheel bolts down, so he thought the flywheel had been machined too far and the center of the clutch disc must have been hitting the bolt heads. Then I discovered there was a significant washer placed behind the ball pivot - I will assume by the PPO, not Roger.

Best I know the clutch and pressure plate were not replaced, only the flywheel was.

Question: in a normal setup does the TO bearing ride on the pressure plate fingers at all times?

I read that there should be about 1/2" play in the fork, but that makes little sense to me because I wonder what prevents the clevis pin from falling out? With that much play, I'd thing the fork may move enough to allow the clevis pin to come off.

[Bartlett 914]

Question: in a normal setup does the TO bearing ride on the pressure plate fingers at all times?

I read that there should be about 1/2" play in the fork, but that makes little sense to me because I wonder what prevents the clevis pin from falling out? With that much play, I'd thing the fork may move enough to allow the clevis pin to come off.

There is your answer. There should be 1/2" play which means it should not be touching. Not pressing would be a better word. With the cable installed it may be touching but the engine and transmission are not in the car. Remove enough of the washers that were under the ball pivot that will give you a 1/2" play in the lever. Rotate the engine from the fan side to insure you don't have any unusual noises and I would think you are good.

I don't know what you mean about the clevis pin falling out. The cable holds it in place unless you have something different.

[lsintampa]

Question: in a normal setup does the TO bearing ride on the pressure plate fingers at all times?

I read that there should be about 1/2" play in the fork, but that makes little sense to me because I wonder what prevents the clevis pin from falling out? With that much play, I'd thing the fork may move enough to allow the clevis pin to come off.

There is your answer. There should be 1/2" play which means it should not be touching. Not pressing would be a better word. With the cable installed it may be touching but the engine and transmission are not in the car. Remove enough of the washers that were under the ball pivot that will give you a 1/2" play in the lever. Rotate the engine from the fan side to insure you don't have any unusual noises and I would think you are good.

I don't know what you mean about the clevis pin falling out. The cable holds it in place unless you have something different.

RE the clevis pin... the clutch pedal doesn't have a spring on it, so the only thing that applies any pressure on the cable is what? I'm assuming it is the fingers on the pressure plate, no? Well if there is 1/2" play in the fork, would that be enough room for the clevis pin to wiggle itself out??? (that's me thinking out loud)

That said, the car when I got it, had the pedal box installed. I noticed that the clutch pedal did not have any spring and assumed that was how it was. This is the first time I saw a cable operated clutch, so what do I know? I replaced the master cylinder, rebuilt the brakes, but it looks like I need to revisit the pedal box cluster again.

[rhodyguy]

the flywheel bolts were ground down to ensure they didn't protrude beyond the inner fw recess where they sit. during the resurface procedure the depth of the recess decreases. jeff hines knows how this needs to be remedied.

k

[ThePaintedMan]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

When the engine/trans combo is bolted together, you should have some play in the clutch fork. It should easily move by hand. When the cable is attached, there will be enough pressure on the fork to keep the clevis in when the clutch is all the way out. The way it is now is WRONG - the fork should not be pressed all the way back toward the engine at rest.

If we know that the only thing that was changed from the way it was when it was last bolted together was the flywheel, why should we start with the pressure plate? To boot, that is one of the suspect Chinese-made AA flywheels which others have had problems with. What you could do is at least check the specs of the flywheel as in this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...ywheel++measure

While you're at it, try to find some kind of markings on the pressure plate to determine if it is a 914 part. However, if Roger could tell us if the clutch fork had play previous to the new flywheel, that would pretty much point us in the right direction.