75 914/4 2.0 d-jet

Boring story, but it looks like I need to get into my motor. The motor came with the car and was nice and clean. All parts that could be powder coated were, it was like new looking. It also had valves re-adjusted, leak tested (OK), and internal probes showed it to be very clean (info from PO).

It sat on my garage floor for 5 months while I tended to the car's other needs. I did drop some oil into each cylinder before I put the plugs in. But the fuel feeder tubes and inlet ports were wide open for a while. But plugged with rags (noted).

Anyway now that I'm finally getting around to trying to start it, the motor is all but seized up. It turns, but it is really hard to move and when it does, it sounds raspy like it's grinding something or scraping something. Hard to explain but it don't sound good.

So, I'm starting all over and I'm going to drop that motor back out and get into it. It is the ONLY way that I will know for sure what I'm dealing with.

Thanks for everyone that's helped along the way. I'm sure once I get into this motor, I'll be looking for help once again.

That seems pretty extreme. How did it turn over when the rebuild was done? Maybe you should do something to put oil pressure into the system and try it.

I can only go on what I was told and what I observed since I got the car. I don't think it was rebuilt. From what I know it was cleaned, new external seals were put on and the valves adjusted.

How do you get oil pressure in this motor? My first air cooled motor, I'm used to oil pumps in the sump that work off of the motor running.

Did the PO possibly install a "better" oil pump during this upgrade?

Hint...Hint....

Stu

To get it primed, remove all the plugs and spin it for about 30 seconds.
That should bring oil up to the rockers which you can see if you remove one of the valve covers.
Beware, it could be messy.

Rich

better how? sorry I'm not getting the hint

If I could spin it, I wouldn't be dropping it out to tear it down. This is the major issue, it barely moves at all.

I can see why you all may be confused.

When I said it "turns", I meant it moves - it sure as heck doesn't turn. If I put a 30MM socket on the wheel hub and get a breaker bar, I can move it a bit, until it gets so tight that all I'm moving is the clutch on the flywheel - I think that's the rasping sound I hear.

I dosed all 4 cylinders with oil for two days, but still not really freeing up.

Not seeing much else to do at this point other that pull it and take a look inside.

I know you've had several threads here lately about this engine....since it hasn't run for so long, do you know any history about the engine and how it was stored?
When you got it, did it actually turn better than it does now? Do you have any documentation on what was done to the motor? It would be nice if someone in your area that knows these cars could take a look at it.....

Oil pump "upgrades" to the type-I pump often result in the cam gear hitting the pump causing all kinds of "grinding" possibilities.

What is the chance that the PO did a motor rebuild with a new pump, but didnt clearance it right?

Stu

Not sure about that. I'm sending him an email now, but I don't think the oil pump was messed with - maybe resealed, but I don't think replaced. Really don't know.

Thanks!

Sorry but I thought you rebuilt it. Remove the plugs. Does it then move? I did a install of a motor that had been sitting awhile. It was a used motor not rebuilt. Carbon had broken loose causing the motor to not turn. I did not force it. I removed the heads and cleaned them. Resealed everything and I am good. Not sure if this helps....

Sorry, throughout you fuel injector saga you kept stating that you would turn it over and no fuel was coming out of the injectors, that is why I assumed it turned over.


Just pull the motor out.
It takes about a Saturday to tear it down to the crankshaft, including removal of the motor.

Overall, you can rebuild one in about 30 hours, but that does not include any possible machine work.

Don't be scared of the prospect, it's a fairly simple motor, and everyone here will help, kibitz, make sarcastic comments, and bust your balls three years from now when you have not finished it yet

Thanks,

Yeah it was turning over for a bit. Then it just seized up. There was one backfire, so timing I know was off.

Got this info from the PO:

"the long block was not opened up and the motor turned over by hand
(plugs out) very easy, so as long as nothing got down an intake or exhaust
port and ingested I would be skeptical of internal problems...that said, the
flywheel was a new aftermarket unit and I did not install it, and I would
investigate the front blower/fan/pulley area...the AC pulley was originally
installed behind the cooling fan and the bolts that held that assembly were
most likely slightly longer than the factory bolts and if the pulley was not
reinstalled you could have interference with the front on the block....just
my thoughts...you might want to pull the trans. to look for flywheel rubbing
issues ( it looked the same but??) if not I would next look at the front end
for blower fan problems that are causing rubbing and ultimately end play
issues."

In any event, the motor is coming out and we'll go from there.

If you reinstall the fan without the proper spacer you will have this very issue...

Stu

Not in gear is it ? Just checking....

I't didn't seize from sitting in your garage for 5 months. Either it was siezed before or something is keeping it from turning. My car sat in my mom's humid garage for 22 years and the piston and cylinders looked fine and turned easily.

And if that happens, what type of damage can be expected? Curious if this turns out to be the case, what I'll be looking at.

I'm assuming the motor is going to need repairs, so I'm debating now my options.

Thanks Stu,

Len

Its true. I'm proof of this.

Zach

Without the spacer, the end of the bolts for the fan hub would tear up the crank seal.

Another possibility, it could be an end play issue. If it's too much, the distributor drive gear can hang up and keep the crank from turning. Too little and it would definitely be hard to turn. It's supposed to have 3-5 thousandths play.

I made the same mistake when I put mine back together, The bolts didn't hit anything.. I also agree it could be an end play issue. I would drop the motor but I would look long and hard before I tear it down. It will really upset you later if you tear it down and find it was something simple.

The statement about the fan, and the flywheel would inspire me to remove the motor, and remove the transmission,
First I would check out the fan to make sure that was not biding in anyway.
Lots of pictures posted will help diagnose that here.

Then I would check the flywheel end play.
The flywheel, if ground or refaced, would then require (possibly) grinding down of the bolt heads that hold the flywheel to the crankshaft.
Otherwise , the clutch disk hits them, causing binding with the transmission, in or out of gear...

Pull it, pull the tranny and pressure plate, look for marks on the bolt heads and the clutch disk.
Then, see if you can turn it by hand using one of the flywheel bolts, not the front fan bolt because that front bolt WILL break.

rich

Started today.

I work out of my home office, and the car is in my garage. So, I work on the car, do some "for pay" work, work on the car - during the course of the day.

I've started prepping the motor to come out. I did drain the oil and the good news is that I didn't see any metal shavings or bits in the oil. Pulled the taco plate and the screen was clean.

Also no water in the oil. DUH, wait that's a BMW, my bad.

nope, water in the oil means the water got into the intake ports.

You may have a simple issue here with the flywheel or fan....both parts of the motor that have been changed.

These motors don't just up and sieze...I have pulled them out of total junk cars and if they can spin, they can start.
You have an interference issue....

rich

With way you got that car, in pieces, it's likely that something wasn't assembled correctly on the engine/trans combo externally. Or you have a mis-matched part (bus clutch or something along those lines). I have to head up to Harbor Freight after work, so I can stop by for a quick bit if you like.

I'm here if you want to stop by. Bring a dolly with you and we'll drop that puppy.

On my car that did happen. There was some carbon that became dislodged on its own. I could only turn the engine 90 degrees in either direction. I ended up pulling the heads. I may have been able to clear it by vacuuming or the use of compressed air. It in the end seemed to be a minor amount of carbon locking up the motor. This was hand turning only and not using the starter

Harbor freight has a tranny jack that makes removing these engines really easy.

Stu

Spare tire no rim also works....you can drag the whole thing out on the tire....
Not that I would ever have done that

Did a beetle, side of the road, no jack, drove up on the curb, dropped it on the spare tire. Then we lifted the car off the motor.
Fixed the busted clutch...put it back together....back when I could lean over and lift a beetle motor all by myself...which was a long time ago.

rich

Thats a pretty cool story Rich!

I didn't think I could, but I actually deadlifted my spare Type IV this weekend to get it into position to put back into the car.

I'm going to Harbor Freight to get another furniture dolly. Can't beat them for 12 bucks. I typically do the lower-the-car-onto-the-engine approach. With my driveway surface, a transmission jack would never work. Since I have to get the dolly anyway, I might as well break it in helping Len out.

I cant lift one anymore, but I could bend over the back of a beetle, inside, and pick it up, and slide it into place...

My back is fine, just don't have the upper body muscles anymore...

I did a cash and carry at a junkyard once, $25 bucks all you can carry.
50 yards off the ground.
I walked out with three beetle motors that day.

Dollies, jacks, lifts...(and three boys) gets things lifted around here now.

I love the dolly and two jack method where you lower the car onto the dollies, unbolt the motor and then jack the car off the motor.
Its so simple and drama free...
Taking my time its about 45 minutes to pull the motor that way.

I am not a fan of trying to balance a motor and trans on a jack, just never likes that approach.


Rich

Hey George,

Thanks for stopping by this evening. Sorry we didn't get dirty and drop the motor, but my wife is having oral surgery tomorrow and I wanted to take her out to have a nice dinner. She'll be on liquid diet for the most of the rest of the week.

I'll get around to dropping that puppy most likely by Wed. or Thur. this week and will let you know what I find.

Beginning to think along with you that the front fan / pulley bolts may be suspect of intrusion into the front of the motor... but we'll see.

So wife's surgery was delayed until further notice. It's complicated.

Anyway, dropped the motor this morning and I don't know if I should start at the front or back first?

Picture is of the front. I pulled those three bolts to see what they looked like on the ends and they look fine.

SO, I'm thinking to start in the back by pulling tranny.

Will do that after lunch.

But tell me if those three bolts that hold the cooling fan on look OK on the ends, is it safe to assume the front isn't where I should be looking.

Mindful the flywheel was new according to the PO - so me thinks the back is where the issue may show up.

Thanks,

Len

Click to view attachment

Take the pulley off! Make sure there is a washer (spacer) behind it!

You'll have to tug on it from different angles, but the fan (impeller) should pop right off. Check to make sure there is that spacer I told you about (consult the Porsche PET diagram if in doubt) behind it.


If nothing is obvious there, here is what I would do:

Move to the transmission to ensure its not an obvious clutch/flywheel problem - only four nuts to remove to do this.

If still nothing is apparent, I'd move back to the front and remove the fan shroud. Again four nuts behind the impeller holding that on. Then remove the single bolt holding the fan hub onto the crank and remove the hub. At that point you would be able to see the front main seal and verify that the fan bolts (which may have been too long because they were used with the a/c adapter that was on the car originally) did not interfere with the seal/case.

If THAT isn't it, move back to the transmission end and remove the flywheel to check for some kind of interference there.

Finally, if no other problems present themselves, move back to the front of the motor and remove the oil pump. It's possible that a Type I oil pump could have been installed and not modified correctly and that has been known to interfere with the cam bolts. If this is the case, you'll probably end up getting rid of this motor, as you and I discussed you don't want to do any internal work with it.

Pulled the fan pulley off.

There wasn't any spacer behind it, but there was another pulley behind it.

Pulled the second pulley off - still no spacer.

Not sure what that second pulley is for? There doesn't seem to be anyway to get a belt on it that would go anywhere????

It was a CA car and had AC - but IDK what the smaller inside pulley would be for.

Mysteries abound.

See photos...


Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

That looks like it was supposed to be there to drive the A/C and the tin or shroud must have had a hole cut in it for the belt to pass through. What should be there is on page #58, part number 3 here:

http://www.porsche.com/all/media/pdf/origi...914_KATALOG.pdf


While you have the bolts out, you might want to check their length. When I get home I can measure mine, but maybe someone else knows how long their supposed to be.

Cars with AC had that pulley installed behind the fan like yours to drive the compressor on the AC. The pulley takes the place of the regular spacer in non AC engines. I found the same thing when I did my rebuild and I replaced mine with the non AC fan spacer.
It should be the same thickness though....

that was my thought too.

If it is out of the car, you should be able to GRAB the fly wheel with both hands and rotate the engine. No wrench needed.

If it is in the car, do the valve adjust method and jack up one side, put the car in 5th gear and turn the jacked up wheel to rotate the engine.

Short of that open her up. Great learning experience.

That is what I used. It has a place to insert a 1/2" ratchet and crank. Balance is a challenge.

OK,

Minor success, but there has to be an easier way to determine this

I pulled the tranny off. After I pulled the muffler, heat exchanges, and just about anything else that may have been in the way.

Once the tranny was off, I could easily turn the motor over using the flywheel.

So are we saying that the tranny locked up - whatever that means?

When the motor and all was in the car, I could easily push the car if it were not in gear, and would never have thought that the tranny could be the issue.

Isn't there an easy way to tell if the tranny or motor is locked up without having to do all this?

Anyway, glad to see the motor seems OK.

Now what the $#U@ is up with that transmission????

Or am I missing something?

You can see in your picture the fan was rubbing! It could be an end play issue. Check that first. If it is .003, then all you need is a spacer

OK, so I have the tranny and motor separated and they both turn easily by hand.

This is bugging me.

Explain how I check end play, what it should be, and if I need shims or spacers where do they go.

I don't see that... but then again, there is very little clearance between the fan and shroud to begin with.

Though, it's a good point. Len, while you have the transmission off of it, why not reinstall the fan and try to turn the flywheel again?

It is those big scraping marks the same diameter as the pulley.

I don't see that either - and I'm right in front of it. If the pulley or fan were scraping, I would expect to see bare metal - the motor would hardly turn at all with a breaker bar on the wheel when the car was in gear, but it would turn. AND it was turning at one point.

I put the fan back on the front and yes indeed it turns easily by hand.

Took the tranny out of gear and it turns easily by hand.

Are you telling me that "end play" is the amount of movement (front of motor to back of motor) of the crank shaft?

Can it be that the tranny when installed is putting that much pressure on the motor to cause it to not spin?

Is this where end-play comes into the picture?

How to measure it, how to adjust it, how much should it be????

One more for seeing no scraping marks.

The "X" marks the ring I am seeing.

If your crank end play is out of spec, it can easily cause your engine to get bound up.....the gears have to mesh up within the proper tolerance.

They are more like "scuff" marks.

I have seen far worse where there were chips inside the housing.
That time you could CLEARLY tell where the noise was coming from.

Stu