Fresh scraps will leave shiny metal. That does not look shiny. It has the same oxidized look as the rest of the housing. See how confusing pics really can be?

It's not shiny, it's just the way the light is hitting that ridge. He already said he doesn't feel any drag when the fan is bolted back up.

Len, you are correct. The endplay is the is amount of fore/aft movement of the crank. It's adjusted with those shims that I showed you in the diagram yesterday. There is a definite possibility that it was not set correctly since the flywheel was replaced. Check the Haynes manual on how to check/set the endplay with your dial indicator, it's not hard. If you do need to shim it, you'll have to order those.

BUT - That doesn't explain why the engine wouldn't budge earlier when he had it in the car, but does spin freely now that it's out. Len told me it turned over a couple times with the starter and then froze. Again, he said it turns over by hand now though.

Len, remember to fill that oil back up before you go turning that engine now too.

Could the starter have gotten stuck and jammed it up?

Check the teeth of the flywheel and the starter!

That's another good suggestion. If we don't see anything else obvious, and with the motor and transmission out together, it's a good time to test the starter. Being very careful, you could hook 12 volts up to it momentarily to ensure it's engaging and disengaging properly. Then, you could pull all the spark plugs and bolt it to the back of the transmission and turn the engine over a few times on the ground to make sure everything is hunkey-dory. As I mentioned to you yesterday, it's probably a good idea to do that anyways once it's back in the car to build oil pressure before running fuel to it.

Was the flywheel reground? Resurfaced?

Put in with a re ground flywheel, stock bolts and a new pressure plate...if the flywheel was not to spec ( btdt) then the clutch disk pinches against the bolt heads, makes the whole tranny possibly sit crooked...things get bound up.

Try this.

Remove the clutch disk and pressure plate.
Look at the bolt heads...

Put the tranny back on with no pressure plate and clutch.

Can you turn the motor?

Look in the Haynes manual.
You need to look at the measurements that relate to the surface the pressure plate mounts and the larger friction area that the clutch disk touches.
That needs to be right.

You also need to look at the overall depth, if its too much they have taken out, the bolt heads are now in the way of the clutch disk...

I mention this because you stated the flywheel was new....which means resurfaced most of the time and not a new piece.

Rich

Not likely... even when it was bound the starter would engage and actually could move the motor for about a eighth of a turn before it bogged down.

I think the starter (new) is fine.

RE the flywheel, it is new - not resurfaced or turned - from what I know. According to the PO it was new, aftermarket, and he's sure it was installed correctly.

I'll take the pressure plate off tomorrow and see what lurks behind it.

I would suggest you measure the end play before you remove the flywheel. Do this without the fan in place just in case there is a clearance issue with the fan. Once you remove the flywheel, you will need another locking washer / disk whatever they call it.

FOUND IT.

The clutch fork (release fork) is riding on the pressure plate.

Question now is WHY???

Pictures show the rubbing clearly.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

That's good.

The fork has to have both a bushing underneath it as well as a retaining "fork." If you remove that allen head screw and consult the diagram in the PET, you'll see what I mean. Ensure that it's assembled correctly.

Also, it's common for people to "shim" the clutch lever ball stud with a washer when material is removed from the flywheel. This returns the original amount of leverage to the lever, but it is possible they shimmed it too much?

One more thing that I thought was ODD.

When I did put the tranny on there is a nut that goes onto a stud that is right behind the fork where the cable attaches.

The fork is SO close to that stud, that it is next to impossible to get the nut on it.

Just thought I'd toss that out there.

Good find! Maybe they shimmed this for the old flywheel. Now it is a new one and doesn't need them.

Where would I find shims?

I took the fork off and there is a ball cup in the fork (for a bushing) that fits on a ball, then the "catch" that hooks under the ball that the retaining bolt attaches to.

So with the fork removed, there wasn't anything other than:

T.O. bearing and the bushing for them
The fork itself
The latch
Bolt and washer
Cup bushing (in the back of the fork) that slips over the ball

I don't see any shims. Would they shim the thing behind the flywheel???

IDK, my math tells me it NEEDS to be shimmed... in other words, the fork needs to be pushed back towards the rear of the car a bit. ADDING a shim behind the TO bearding would do that, no?

Heard from the PO

This is the flywheel that was used.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-914-215mm-...0939970866?pt=V

Along with the clutch and pressure plate that came with it, when he (PO) bought the car.

AHH, I read what you said again. In my mind, if I were to shim it, I'd put a shim behind the TO bearing - moving it forward and the fork back.

But shims behind the ball would push the fork forward and the TO bearing back.

Found this. So is one a shim and one a washer? I need to toss one or both?

What a drama this has been.

BTW - my end play is fine, checked it today.

Click to view attachment

The shim would go behind the ball stud, NOTHING should be behind the throwout bearing. Try it with only one of those washers under the ball stud and see if the fork still rubs on the clutch at full engagement.

PET shows a washer behind the ball stud. Looks like the shim is the thicker one.

Anybody need a ball socket shim?

I took out the thicker of the two "shims" or "washers" and put the tranny back on.

I can turn the motor by hand, but I can still hear light scraping of that fork on the pressure plate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the TO bearing always ride on the pressure plate?

OR

Should I have some play in the fork with the tranny mounted? I read somewhere that there should be about 1/2" of play. I nave no play and the fork actually is in the way for me to get that bottom nut on easily.

Anyway, I can either remove the only remaining washer and pick up a tab more room, or I can leave it and let it wear on it's own.

Not sure what this is a symptom of - except a slightly thicker fly wheel than what it should be????

Could the clutch itself be in backwards?

Mine was the same way but I think I had a little more play in the clutch fork than you have. Took like 3 hands to move the fork out of the way while I started the nut.

There should be play in the fork with the transmission mounted. It's very possible the clutch is installed upside down, but I don't understand how that would cause the interference with the clutch fork. Either way, it's a good idea to pull off the pressure plate and make sure... unless you really enjoy doing engine/trans drops.

To reinstall it though, you need a clutch alignment tool. I have one you can borrow once I get mine bolted back together (hopefully tonight).

I have a feeling that the flywheel is wrong/too thick though. I don't know what the specs are for them stock. Someone more knowledgeable will probably chime in, or you can do a search.

Picture shows the clutch is properly installed, the best unknown variable is the pressure plate, is it correct for 2.0 type 4 in a 914?...since we know the flywheel, that came with the car had been machined pretty far and the pivot ball had been shimmed it is possible the PP could be bus or other??

Caution: don't go looking for problems that don't exist!!

Regards,

The last PO

I don't want this to sound like a dick comment, but I'm sure it will come out that way, so I apologize ahead of time. There obviously is a problem, so I don't know how we would be looking for one that doesn't exist.

Since you're the previous owner, didn't you supply the engine/trans combo with the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate? If so, why not let us know where you got the components from?

I already mentioned the possibility that this could be bus stuff, but since Len got the car from you, he told me that you set him up with everything to put the car back together. I'm trying to help him, since he's new to these cars, but until we know what the scenario truly is, life has been more difficult.

Feel free to shed some light if you could please. Otherwise, the car is in good shape, and from one 914 owner to another, thanks for taking such good care of it while it was yours.


I still think it's the wrong flywheel, or at least the wrong depth. One of Len's previous posts was to an Ebay ad for a "new" flywheel and this is the disclaimer it had:
"Before Bidding
.
• We cannot guarantee product compatibility. If unsure that this product is correct for your application please ask before bidding and we will do our best to get you the answers needed to get you the correct one by using the ‘Ask a Question’ link."

Not looking for problems that don't exist, just looking for the problem - obviously there is one.

Roger, you've been a great help all along and I appreciate all you've done to help, but I'm still trying to figure out what the current remaining issue(s) is / are.

Thanks,

Len

Len.

Sounds like your in good hands!!

Best Wishes

Roger, I did some more reading and found out a little more on your background and how you came about owning the car. I apologize if I sounded like I didn't think you knew your stuff. It's been my own personal experience with previous owners that makes me so weary of other people's work, so again, I apologize.

However, if you could share what you know about the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate history, that would probably help us. Is it safe to assume when you had the car it wasn't in operating condition? I.e., the engine/trans combo was already split apart?

George, when Roger got the car, the motor was IN the car with tranny attached. It had not run in many years however.

The motor and tranny were removed, cleaned, and resealed, tins powder coated, motor had great leak down test results.

The reason the flywheel was replaced is that Roger discovered someone had ground the heads of the old flywheel bolts down, so he thought the flywheel had been machined too far and the center of the clutch disc must have been hitting the bolt heads. Then I discovered there was a significant washer placed behind the ball pivot - I will assume by the PPO, not Roger.

Best I know the clutch and pressure plate were not replaced, only the flywheel was.

Question: in a normal setup does the TO bearing ride on the pressure plate fingers at all times?

I read that there should be about 1/2" play in the fork, but that makes little sense to me because I wonder what prevents the clevis pin from falling out? With that much play, I'd thing the fork may move enough to allow the clevis pin to come off.

There is your answer. There should be 1/2" play which means it should not be touching. Not pressing would be a better word. With the cable installed it may be touching but the engine and transmission are not in the car. Remove enough of the washers that were under the ball pivot that will give you a 1/2" play in the lever. Rotate the engine from the fan side to insure you don't have any unusual noises and I would think you are good.

I don't know what you mean about the clevis pin falling out. The cable holds it in place unless you have something different.

RE the clevis pin... the clutch pedal doesn't have a spring on it, so the only thing that applies any pressure on the cable is what? I'm assuming it is the fingers on the pressure plate, no? Well if there is 1/2" play in the fork, would that be enough room for the clevis pin to wiggle itself out??? (that's me thinking out loud)

That said, the car when I got it, had the pedal box installed. I noticed that the clutch pedal did not have any spring and assumed that was how it was. This is the first time I saw a cable operated clutch, so what do I know? I replaced the master cylinder, rebuilt the brakes, but it looks like I need to revisit the pedal box cluster again.

the flywheel bolts were ground down to ensure they didn't protrude beyond the inner fw recess where they sit. during the resurface procedure the depth of the recess decreases. jeff hines knows how this needs to be remedied.

k

When the engine/trans combo is bolted together, you should have some play in the clutch fork. It should easily move by hand. When the cable is attached, there will be enough pressure on the fork to keep the clevis in when the clutch is all the way out. The way it is now is WRONG - the fork should not be pressed all the way back toward the engine at rest.

If we know that the only thing that was changed from the way it was when it was last bolted together was the flywheel, why should we start with the pressure plate? To boot, that is one of the suspect Chinese-made AA flywheels which others have had problems with. What you could do is at least check the specs of the flywheel as in this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...ywheel++measure

While you're at it, try to find some kind of markings on the pressure plate to determine if it is a 914 part. However, if Roger could tell us if the clutch fork had play previous to the new flywheel, that would pretty much point us in the right direction.

What I stated is to put the correct amount of spacers under the ball pivot to give you 1/2" of play. This is not an absolute number! Use enough spacer under the pivot to give you "some" play.

What clevis are you talking about? Are you talking about the pin in the pedal. That pin must be correct and pressed in place. If it is loose at all, it will fail. Period. If you are talking about the clevis at the clutch lever at the transmission, it cannot fall out. The clutch cable goes through a notch.

also note there is a dimension, 10mm, you want to try to obtain where the cable protrudes on the forward side of the clevis. haynes, p.71, fig. 4.9.

Right now he has tried it with the stock 1 spacer and the fork is still rubbing the pressure plate and the fork is pressed all the way back toward the engine. Wouldn't adding more spacers provide less play (but more leverage)?

That is new information to me. Remove the last spacer would be my suggestion and report back. Use the correct number of spacers did not mean add spacers, It just meant use an amount (which could be zero) that will give you some play.

Glad we're on the same page. I doubt that will give him enough slack, but it's worth a try. Still think there is another issue here which is causing the pressure plate to protrude too far. But what do I know.

My understanding (PET) there is supposed to be ONE washer behind the pivot ball. Anyway removing it is NOT going to give me the room I need. I wish it were that simple.

The pressure plate has too high of a profile, OR the flywheel is too thick.

I can't imagine any other possibilities, UNLESS there is any way you can shim the flywheel itself, which I doubt.

I may "ask a question" to the ebay vendor that is selling those flywheels.

The wrong throwout bearing could also cause a problem.
If the bearing is too "thick", then it would force the yoke of the lever to be too far back, forcing the long end of the lever to be too far forward.

It has been a couple of months since I put mine in, but the pic of yours just looks like something is different.

I could put my spare tranny & throwout bearing together tonight and compare...

Stu

p/n on the throwout bearing: 3151 132 132 Looks to be a 911 bearing. I think they are the same.

Mindful that we assume the car ran PRIOR to the flywheel being installed. So the TOB, PP, clutch are what it ran with. What is unknown is what flywheel was in there to start. Maybe the combo they had was mis-matched - who knows.

I send an "ask a question" to the ebay flywheel vendor. Not sure if I'll get an answer, as I didn't buy it from him, but I'm trying.

Great point Stu, didn't think of that. I looked it up, and it appears the 914 and /6 throw out bearings are the same. Further research lends me to believe that 911 T/O bearing has the same dimensions.

We'll get it figured out. I think you might be looking at pulling the flywheel off to measure it, if the Ebay vendor doesn't give you some kind of solution.

I just removed a pivot ball from an original tranny. It has 1 washer .053" thick. Measuring from the tip of the ball to the back side of the washer is 21mm. This threaded hole goes into the transmission and must be sealed or you will have a leak. What does the ball cup in the arm look like? Is it sticking out. Is the arm possible bent?

I just replaced the ball cup bushing. That's not the issue.

I pulled the pressure plate off, and all looks to be fine.

I did hear from the ebay vendor who said:

"Hi Len
Sorry, I don't have any spec's on the flywheel. I've sold around 30 of these flywheels within the last year or so, I haven't heard of any issues.
When did you buy the flywheel?
I can't seem to find your order in my records.
If you still have the original flywheel, then you would have access on getting the spec's and comparing the 2 flywheels easier then me.
Is not easy to find the stock flywheels, I'm sure your aware of this.
Let me know what you find out, Any information you get will be appreciated, so I can share with the manufacture.
And if there's is a problem with the flywheel, it can be correct.
thank you, Julio (kokoparts)"

I think it was kind of him to respond and I believe him when he says he's sold a bunch without issue.

Still on the hunt... it's just a matter of time before it's all over.

Check the distance from the flywheel friction face to the pressure plate mounting surface (A), should be 22.5 mm (.886") +0.2mm (.0078")Click to view attachment

Ha, maybe my pivot ball took Viagra.

Washer is .05

Tip of the ball to backside of washer is 22MM

Nope, not on Viagra....

It is roughly 22mm.

I haven't removed the flywheel - yet.

IDK,

My opinion (for what that's worth) is that the flywheel juts too far back into the bell housing away from the rear of the motor.

The measurements from that drawing match up to the rough measurements I'm able to do with the flywheel still mounted.

Look at this picture. The flywheel is actually a tiny bit OUT from the back of the motor's edge. There is room for it to sit down deeper in. Might there be a spacer behind the flywheel... or is that how far out it is supposed to sit?

I may as well remove the thing and see what I see????

Click to view attachment

this setup worked fine when pulled. 1 1/2" from the rear of the case to the rear side of the fw. the disc 'snout' is 3/8" from the non tob side of the pressure plate fingers.

Same measurement I get about 1.5".

The pressure plate is about 33MM from the mounting surface to it's highest point.

Flywheel looks to be OK. Measurements that I could take seem to be fine.

Click to view attachment

Can anyone tell me how fat / tall the pressure plate should be?

Measuring from where the pressure plate mounts to the flywheel to the highest point of the pressure plate face.

Hard to measure, but I get about 33 MM.

Everything looks to be OK, so I'm just stuck in the mud here.

I put new bushings on the pivot ball socket, and the ears of the TOB.

The issue still seems to be when I marry the tranny to the motor the pressure plate fingers come in contact with the TOB. Not sure if that is a result of it pushing on the fork, but I suspect it is.

One more thing. I don't know where I saw it, but I recall seeing a picture of a 914 fork and it had a grove or channel cut into it (as if it were made that way), right about where the pressure plate is contacting it. I'll see if I can find that picture and post it, but I thought - now that might just cure my issue.

Here's that fork I was talking about.

This poor fellow had a different issue, but do you see the indent on the arm of the fork?

My fork doesn't have that indent and I think maybe it should?????

IDK fellows, I'm just grasping at straws here.

Len, no indent on any of my clutch forks. Is yours bent in any way? The arm should be completely straight both in the x and y plane. Ie. if not for the fingers that grasp the bushings on the sides of the throwout bearing, it would lay flat on the table.

SirAndy has mentioned it's possible to bend a clutch fork as a way to get more leverage, but you don't want that - you want less leverage, more "throw", if that makes any sense.