Gauging interest for PnP Megasquirt solution, MS anyone? Options

[JamesM]

It eliminates the MPS and all the other expensive NLA d-jet stuff.

if the price comes in at that $250 or so range I am definitely interested as it makes swapping nuked junkyard type 4s into my new lemons rig a breeze, and I have enough in my budget at this time to snap this up ahhh the joys of cheap cars with expensive parts inside would this eliminate the MPS as well?

[JamesM]

Technically i could have one ready in a couple days. Idealy though I would really like to give it a serious stress test myself before i ship one out to anyone else. I am also still making changes to the system, the more i mess with it the more i find ways to improve it and until i have finalized all the changes i would like to keep it in house. I just built another board today with some modifications i wanted to test out however i feel that if all the modifications work as expected it will be pretty close to final. 3 months might be doable for guinea pig testing but i will have to see. I was considering some pretty specific criteria for anyone who wants to be involved in initial testing in order to simplify things for me, however that is still up in the air as well.

Give me the details on your car and motor so i can at least have it in my head to think about. For initial testing i was planning more on cars that are close to stock in order to eliminate variables however i am willing to consider anything.

I have a schedule to have an engine running within 3 months and would love a modern digital FI system. Would one of yours be ready for me? I'm willing to be a Guinea Pig for your R & D ... at my expense.

[gothspeed]

Let me get up to speed on this awesome project. This is programmable EFI with ignition control together, correct?

I am interested in it. I will be building a 2056, ported heads, big cam/valves and custom exhaust.

There is still decision being made between ITBs or a custom single TB plenum intake (basically a four banger version of the Carrera 3.2 intake manifold).

Maybe the injection system will help make that decision.

[mk114]

Well James,

You know you have my 1.7 to test on If it wil save me fromt he nightmare of tunning this headache, and keep me from going to carbs. I'm In.

Plus being Local to SLC is always a bonus for testing.

[JamesM]

Let me get up to speed on this awesome project. This is programmable EFI with ignition control together, correct?

I am interested in it. I will be building a 2056, ported heads, big cam/valves and custom exhaust.

There is still decision being made between ITBs or a custom single TB plenum intake (basically a four banger version of the Carrera 3.2 intake manifold).

Maybe the injection system will help make that decision.

The basic idea behind what i am doing is to simpliy the replacement of d-jet with megasquirt while remaining as close to stock apearance as possible. It is digital and fully programable so you will not be tied down to stock cams and displacement. Basically a good cheater system. My idea is to supply it in a fuel only configuration in order to keep the install as simple as possible for stock system replacement however being as that it is Megasquirt based and running the MSnS Extra code someone could add ignition control or a ton of other features if they were so inclined. I am running my autox car with ignotion control and a wideband O2 sensor with target AFR tables. Once you start geting into all the extra features though things can start getting complicated so i would rather just be supplying the base to build from and anying else people want to add is up to them. check out the MSnSe feature list, its pretty exciting.

As the part of my goal is retaining an appearance as close to stock as possible you might be more intrested in just doing your own megasquirt build. Things are a lot less complicated when you are not tied to the stock wiring harness and stuffing everything in the stock ecu. Yes, what i am building could be made to work with what you are planning, but if you are not concerned about looking stock with the ITB's or custom manifold I think it might be better to go with a custom wiring harness as well and not mess around with the d-jet one.

[JamesM]

Your car looks so original i am almost afriad to touch it! That being said i still say it would be a crime to put carbs on it, so if the options are carbs or a stealth MS setup I am all for the MS setup. The Ms setup will probably be the easier swap too. Plus it will be a good test for fixing d-jet cars that are acting up.

I do want to take a good look at your car first though and see if we can sort out the d-jet, it was running so well...

Well James,

You know you have my 1.7 to test on If it wil save me fromt he nightmare of tunning this headache, and keep me from going to carbs. I'm In.

Plus being Local to SLC is always a bonus for testing.

[gothspeed]

Let me get up to speed on this awesome project. This is programmable EFI with ignition control together, correct?

I am interested in it. I will be building a 2056, ported heads, big cam/valves and custom exhaust.

There is still decision being made between ITBs or a custom single TB plenum intake (basically a four banger version of the Carrera 3.2 intake manifold).

Maybe the injection system will help make that decision.

The basic idea behind what i am doing is to simpliy the replacement of d-jet with megasquirt while remaining as close to stock apearance as possible. It is digital and fully programable so you will not be tied down to stock cams and displacement. Basically a good cheater system. My idea is to supply it in a fuel only configuration in order to keep the install as simple as possible for stock system replacement however being as that it is Megasquirt based and running the MSnS Extra code someone could add ignition control or a ton of other features if they were so inclined. I am running my autox car with ignotion control and a wideband O2 sensor with target AFR tables. Once you start geting into all the extra features though things can start getting complicated so i would rather just be supplying the base to build from and anying else people want to add is up to them. check out the MSnSe feature list, its pretty exciting.

As the part of my goal is retaining an appearance as close to stock as possible you might be more intrested in just doing your own megasquirt build. Things are a lot less complicated when you are not tied to the stock wiring harness and stuffing everything in the stock ecu. Yes, what i am building could be made to work with what you are planning, but if you are not concerned about looking stock with the ITB's or custom manifold I think it might be better to go with a custom wiring harness as well and not mess around with the d-jet one.

Thanks for the response (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif). As you said I am not tied to the stock 'look'. I was thinking yours was a 'new' EFI system.

So I will continue looking into the programmable EFIs out there. Choices are Electromotive, Haltech, MegaSquirt, SDS or even Motec depending on support structure, 'local' technician availability and first hand experience of 914 worlders.

[type47]

Give me the details on your car and motor so i can at least have it in my head to think about.

Stock stroke and have options of 94 or 96mm pistons. CR in the range of stock... 8ish:1. Plan to use stock 2.0 intake system, injectors, ... SS heat exchangers w/ supertrapp ... "muffler"...

[eric914]

With all due respect, all I can say is to be sure you transfer all your assets to into your wifes name and may god have mercy on your soul before you jump into this.
[/quote]


A possible solution to your concerns about liability would be to use the same warranty that Jake gives on his engine kits.

"All sales are final, no refunds, exchanges or returns are allowed." pretty simple.

[charliew]

A couple other smaller issues i need to investigate , that maybe someone has some input on.

1. With the new board setup i am pulling all the power for the megasquirt through the stock harness, while this does make everything look nice an clean it has had the strange side effect of keeping power to the MS system for about 5 seconds after the key is shut off. not a deal breaker at this point but it is high on my priority list to sort out as it is annoying. I am not sure if this is due to a sticky main relay on the stock relay board, or perhaps something else. I have not had time to investigate this yet but maybe someone out there has some ideas?

2. The throttle position sensor setup. I have been thinking a lot about this as it is probably the biggest area I would like to find a development of some sort. Right now the options are
A. Eliminate it all together, which would allow a stock look but i do not like mainly due to losing the flood clear feature but also due to losing throttle position in datalogs.
B. Chop up a d-jet TPS to make an adaptor. While this enables everything to work the way it is supposed to i am not to happy with it because it involves sourcing a d-jet TPS, destroying a d-jet TPS, and on 2L motors does not look stock due to the fact that i have not found a decent TPS that fits completely inside the old one. Not really an issue on 1.7s as it is hidden under the throttle body. Also it is another PITA tedious thing to construct. It works fine, but i have a feeling a better soultion is out there. Looking for input here as well.

I am not up to speed on ms yet but I was reading the ms info on the version 3 board and it mentioned a run on condition in the fuel pump flyback clamp circuit and changing it to a zener diode to correct it if I remember correctly. This may or may not help.

Also I found this tps on ebay and it looks pretty adaptable. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Charlie

[r_towle]

James,

What parts would need to be replaced in your bolt on kit?
I would assume it would all be in the box for me to bolt on.
Base map to get it running.

From there I can tune it.

I am ready now and I have a 1.7 I am about to pull out of my car for a 2.0 liter....
I will be happy to play with modified motors and your system
I will learn it on the 1.7 and then modify it.

When can I have one...no warranty needed...I suck at soldering.

Rich

[JamesM]

A couple other smaller issues i need to investigate , that maybe someone has some input on.

1. With the new board setup i am pulling all the power for the megasquirt through the stock harness, while this does make everything look nice an clean it has had the strange side effect of keeping power to the MS system for about 5 seconds after the key is shut off. not a deal breaker at this point but it is high on my priority list to sort out as it is annoying. I am not sure if this is due to a sticky main relay on the stock relay board, or perhaps something else. I have not had time to investigate this yet but maybe someone out there has some ideas?

2. The throttle position sensor setup. I have been thinking a lot about this as it is probably the biggest area I would like to find a development of some sort. Right now the options are
A. Eliminate it all together, which would allow a stock look but i do not like mainly due to losing the flood clear feature but also due to losing throttle position in datalogs.
B. Chop up a d-jet TPS to make an adaptor. While this enables everything to work the way it is supposed to i am not to happy with it because it involves sourcing a d-jet TPS, destroying a d-jet TPS, and on 2L motors does not look stock due to the fact that i have not found a decent TPS that fits completely inside the old one. Not really an issue on 1.7s as it is hidden under the throttle body. Also it is another PITA tedious thing to construct. It works fine, but i have a feeling a better soultion is out there. Looking for input here as well.

I am not up to speed on ms yet but I was reading the ms info on the version 3 board and it mentioned a run on condition in the fuel pump flyback clamp circuit and changing it to a zener diode to correct it if I remember correctly. This may or may not help.

Also I found this tps on ebay and it looks pretty adaptable. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Charlie

I have been sort on time since my last post, but what i have found so far is that when you first turn the key off while the engine is running the circuit that energizes the stock 914 main relay still has about 4.5 volts on it until the engine spins down(alternator feedback i believe). This 4.5 volts is enough to keep the relay on and keep feeding 12V to the MS. As i am also currently running ignition control and using that signial for my switched +12V on my spark box as well, the engine does not shut down as both my fuel and ignition systems are getting power. My quick fix at the moment is just to pull the MS switched power from somewhere other then the main 914 relay.

I am not sure if the problem would present itself on a car running a stock ignition setup as i have not had time to investigate that yet. If ignition is cut with key off in a stock setup then this should not be a problem as far as keeping it a stealth install. I have a busy week comming up so i probably wont be able to get to it anytime soon, but i plan on investigating the stock d-jet/ignition setup closely to see how everything is handled.

[JamesM]

James,

What parts would need to be replaced in your bolt on kit?
I would assume it would all be in the box for me to bolt on.
Base map to get it running.

From there I can tune it.

I am ready now and I have a 1.7 I am about to pull out of my car for a 2.0 liter....
I will be happy to play with modified motors and your system
I will learn it on the 1.7 and then modify it.

When can I have one...no warranty needed...I suck at soldering.

Rich

Right now if you already have a d-jet system, its simply a matter of swapping the ECU and TPS though i am currently looking at ways to eliminate having to swap the TPS for stealth installs. If you dont mind doing the tuning you could even put which ever d-jet parts you like on any engine, ie. use 1.7 injection parts with drilled intake runners on a 2.0. We even did my buddys using the 2L bus intake due to the larger runners/plenum. If you are not worried about a stock look there are really a lot of options you could play around with.

As far as a time table goes right now its hard to tell as i have been pretty tight on free time. I sit in front of a computer for my day job, so i have plenty of time to solder boards, i just dont have much time to test the modifications i am working on in my cars. next week i should be able to test my latest changes and then i could proabably give you a better estimate on time.


As far as soldering goes, having a good adjustable temp soldering station and the right tip on the iron helps a lot.

[jcb29]

The PO of my '75 2.0 removed all the components of the FI and replaced it with a Holly "Bug Spray" of all things. I would like to take it back to being a FI but am concerned about finding a complete 35 year old D-Jet system and getting it installed and running, to say nothing of the cost!! I would be very interested in more information/development of your system and possible use of my car as a test mule.

[Tom]

James,
I'm following this thread with interest as D-jet parts are really getting costly. Trigger points over $200.00 and they are one of the more simple items.
Keep up the good work you are doing. Also sending a PM.
Tom

[rsrguy3]

If I remember correctly, we rounded up all the parts of my system for 1000$ or slightly less(including wide band), imo quite the coup. The sweet thing is, it ran like a top till I found the PO's hidden wiring issues, multiple melt spots in the harness, NOT FUN! James has none of these issues. I'm currently working a couple of other projects for $$$ flips, in order to get back to my beloved teener. So, If any of you guys want's to by my MS brain your welcomed to it 300$ for the brain and relay board, The 2l maps are all in it. Follow James instructions and you'll be a happy 14 camper.

[underthetire]

I still can't vote. There is no Already have megasquirt and love it.

[draganc]

James,

I like your project a lot and believe the MS system is the right approach for 914. Why? Because most of us “like” to work on 914 and we are all facing a return-of-invest issue/challenge with the 914. I have been screening the aftermarket FI ECU for about a year. There are great products (Electromotive, AEM, MSD, ect) out there for a great price. MS offers a very flexible inexpensive package for the DIYer. Maybe it’s not perfect (I don’t see any show stopper yet) but it’s within reach.

I believe MS – even in a PNP setup – will always require some minor tuning. But that goes for all aftermarket FI ECU. A true PNP system will be to go to one of the 914 experts and have them install a ECU system and let them do all the work.

As of the MS warranty terms, they had to use that statement because it IS a DYI experimental system and every 2nd guys modifies the system to his specification – that is the purpose of a open platform! Even SDS’ webpage states that read their manual first and then buy the product if you believe you can do it.

To conclude, I believe that most of the available aftermarket ECUs are very well design systems and all have some pros/cons. It’s up to you/us to pick the system of your choice. My suggestion is to read a few ECO books (i.e Bosch FI & Engine Management, Design and tuning high-performance FI systems, ect) before you make up your mind.

I have made my choice, it is Megasquirt.

Keep up the great work!!

Dragan

PS: How did you install the trigger wheel? Std. GM or MS 36-1 trigger wheel at the crank?

[velum]

Hi James!

Anything new about your PnP MegaSquirt solution? I have a '73 914-4 2.0L and I would be interested. Also, are you thinking of providing a solution that would allow to get rid of the distributor? I heard all this can be done electronically. And what about injectors, do you use stock injection valves, or do you recommend swapping them for modern ones?

Cheers!

JF

[JamesM]

James,

I like your project a lot and believe the MS system is the right approach for 914. Why? Because most of us “like” to work on 914 and we are all facing a return-of-invest issue/challenge with the 914. I have been screening the aftermarket FI ECU for about a year. There are great products (Electromotive, AEM, MSD, ect) out there for a great price. MS offers a very flexible inexpensive package for the DIYer. Maybe it’s not perfect (I don’t see any show stopper yet) but it’s within reach.

I believe MS – even in a PNP setup – will always require some minor tuning. But that goes for all aftermarket FI ECU. A true PNP system will be to go to one of the 914 experts and have them install a ECU system and let them do all the work.

As of the MS warranty terms, they had to use that statement because it IS a DYI experimental system and every 2nd guys modifies the system to his specification – that is the purpose of a open platform! Even SDS’ webpage states that read their manual first and then buy the product if you believe you can do it.

To conclude, I believe that most of the available aftermarket ECUs are very well design systems and all have some pros/cons. It’s up to you/us to pick the system of your choice. My suggestion is to read a few ECO books (i.e Bosch FI & Engine Management, Design and tuning high-performance FI systems, ect) before you make up your mind.

I have made my choice, it is Megasquirt.

Keep up the great work!!

Dragan

PS: How did you install the trigger wheel? Std. GM or MS 36-1 trigger wheel at the crank?

I am not using a trigger wheel in my setup at the moment. The installation of one is a bit more then what most people would consider plug and play.