help with 3.2l conversion wiring, have a PMS 3.2l to 914-4 conversion cable but... Options

[mepstein]

Steve & Jim - Do you have any other details of your build/conversion? Pics? I understand the big picture but it's the small details that I'm trying to pick up. Did you also upgrade trans, brakes, add gauges, ect? Thanks, mark

[Steve]

I installed it 8 years ago. The motor came out of a 1984 gray market 911, which means it's a Euro 3.2 motor. Let me take some pictures and dig up my notes tonight after work. The only thing going to the front trunk is the fuel pump wiring. Otherwise it's just the gauge wiring and power connections under the dash. I also bought the tach and oil combo gauge out of the same car. I bought a separate round fuel gauge from AA that matches the sender and installed that in the dash next to the cigarette lighter. My car also has Boxster brakes and a Gt stiffening kit. I am also using the 911 emergency brake. The trans is the stock 901 with a Kep adapter ring and clutch. Regarding the trans I either start off in second or baby first gear.

[MoveQik]

Steve & Jim - Do you have any other details of your build/conversion? Pics? I understand the big picture but it's the small details that I'm trying to pick up. Did you also upgrade trans, brakes, add gauges, ect? Thanks, mark

Mark, FWIW, here is my build thread. I knew what I wanted but lack the skills. Joe(Series9) did all the work. My 3.2

[mepstein]

Steve & Jim - Do you have any other details of your build/conversion? Pics? I understand the big picture but it's the small details that I'm trying to pick up. Did you also upgrade trans, brakes, add gauges, ect? Thanks, mark

Mark, FWIW, here is my build thread. I knew what I wanted but lack the skills. Joe(Series9) did all the work. My 3.2

Yes, Ive read it, a couple times. It's guys like you that have placed me in this situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Scotty B is going to do all the work on the engine install but I want to have everything as ready as possible and lots of back up documentation so I can pay him for the work and not the research.

[jim912928]

I found this diagram last night in the owners manual that came with the 911....good diagram highlighting all the connection points.



Mark...I'll snap some shots later that show what I've currently done to the engine compartment, tranny and motor.

[John]

Steve & Jim - Do you have any other details of your build/conversion? Pics? I understand the big picture but it's the small details that I'm trying to pick up. Did you also upgrade trans, brakes, add gauges, ect? Thanks, mark

Here's a link to my last 3.2 conversion. There are a few pics.

My Blog

[mepstein]

Will an optima battery fit in the normal location with the 3.2?

[jim912928]

ok...I think I have the mystery solved...I'll verify when I get the wiring diagrams from Steve. But I used a combination of web based diagrams, info in this thread, a detail PM from Steve and searching the 911 tech forum on the bird board. So, here are the basics...there is 1 big wire and 2 additional harnesses in the forward section of the DME harness.

1. The big black wire labeled #3 in my first picture obviously goes to the positive side of the battery terminal

2. the bundle where I labeled #2 and #5 on my pic has the red/green wire (fuel pump), a black wire (coil) and another black wire (DME 5). I had labeled the red green with the painters tape with the 911 fuse box label as "fuel pump" and the black wire I had labeled "backup lights". The other black wire wasn't labeled but it is the DME 5 wire. I saved the 911 fuse/relay box cover and was able to line up the labels with the fuse positions. Then, on a 911 current flow diagram i traced them out and both of these black wires terminate on the inlet side of the 2nd fuse box (terminal #8 at 16a). I traced them back to the coil and DME Relay! The red/green wire also terminates on the inlet side of the 2nd fuse box (terminal #3 25a). So, I would think for the 914 we just need to find the right inlet side fuse box terminals to connect these to?

3. the 2nd bundle has a black, black-violet and yellow wire (labeled these #6 in my picture). The black/violet and the black both go to the tach on the 911 diagram. The yellow goes to the ignition switch on the 911 diagram. Looks like we just need to splice them into the corresponding wires on the 914.

4. there was an independent green/yellow wire with a green extension that just poked out of the harness (I labeled this #4 on my pic)....on a 911 these both connect into the Air Conditioning stuff.

So, all wires accounted for (I'll verify when I get steves diagrams)...now, all we need to figure out is which 914 fuse box terminals to tap into!?

Thanks Steve, bird board and anybody I missed for all the bit's and pieces! When we all get this stuff hooked up and working we'll have to document everything to make it ease for others to come!

Jim

[jim912928]

A thought based on the info I outlined above. I have a 75 which has the seat belt warning relay under the passenger seat. The "yellow" wire from the switch routes through this relay....shouldn't I be able to tap into the yellow wire right off that relay?

Also, that same relay has the "start and run" black wire from the the fuse panel (fuse 9) which goes to the coil in 914 harness. Tap in here?

Just a thought, again I'm not an electrician, but I'd sure like to minimize having to move wires around near the fuse box!

[shoguneagle]

Now you are tracking on the right path. You might consider that the wires for the start only and start & run positions will end near the instruments. Lay out the wiring harness and get the general layout of the different endings along with the relay and computer placement. This little function will or should answer a lot of questions you may now have with all this information.

If that relay under the right seat does the same thing as under 74, you probably want too consider eliminating it entirely. On the 74, the relay is a weight pressure switch which requires someone/weighted object to in in the seat before you can start the car. The elimination would be to connect the incoming large yellow wire and the large yellow wire going to the starter.

Now back to the ignition positions: Start & Run - find the fuse that the wire going back to the old relay board. I would take a look at the side of #9 fuse to see where you can get power. Start Only - should be a little different since you have to tap into the the wire going from the ignition switch (#50 at the switch; color yellow; verify that it goes to the starter via #1 pin connection on the 914 side of the 14-pin connector (ref: Patrick's Adaptor). I would do this tap somewhere down line from the ignition switch and somewhere near the engine harness termination point for these activities. By doing this above you will keep the original harness intact except for the Start Only position and what you may do to eliminate the relay under the right seat.

[shoguneagle]

Joe Sharpe did a great job on MoveQik's Sixer!!! It is one of the threads that needs to be read in detail.

The thread from the Pelican Board is a great one also, but it covers/indirectly sourced from Sixer conversions generally with excellent points, may refer to some elements for CIS which is a different animal than Motronics. Definitely a major detail read to understand.

There are many other threads on these different boards covering the Sixer 3.2 conversion. They can be researched and studied in equal detail. They are excellent.
Some names that popup are Summersled(?), A914Guy, MoveQik, Joe Sharpe, and many others which I did research several years ago. I cannot remember their names but they deserve the credit for providing quality information regarding the 914 3.2 engine conversion. Some more names are Sir Andy (3.6 conversion), McMark, Brad Mayeur; Yes, even Brad Roberts (disregarding the Politico Events, he really helped people including myself). Just so many who have done a great job in providing information so we can do our hobby, building Sixer 3.2 conversions. Enough said about that.

There is information available from these different sources that should at least give a background in what has been used; and, the people who answered this thread as well as other historic contributors can give you information. Pelican Board has a very good general background paper and list of parts including what to generally look for during the conversion. There many pros and cons concerning such things as transmission to which MoveQik states and alludes to when using the 901 transaxle.

I think the extra items which some of you are getting to can be readily provided but may be out of timing with this thread. I would like to keep the thread within the frame work of the electrical and problems surrounding it. Generally, we can give you whatever information that you need to get a valid pro and con using a one-on-one basis; or, we can undertake that information as everyone needs it.

You have to participate in getting a background on this info since you will be the one doing the work (hopefully), and you can have understanding in what is going on within your electrical, fuel, etc. systems.

Sorry I got long winded but the more you understand, the easier the conversion will be.

[mepstein]

Joe Sharpe did a great job on MoveQik's Sixer!!! It is one of the threads that needs to be read in detail.

The thread from the Pelican Board is a great one also, but it covers/indirectly sourced from Sixer conversions generally with excellent points, may refer to some elements for CIS which is a different animal than Motronics. Definitely a major detail read to understand.

There are many other threads on these different boards covering the Sixer 3.2 conversion. They can be researched and studied in equal detail. They are excellent.
Some names that popup are Summersled(?), A914Guy, MoveQik, Joe Sharpe, and many others which I did research several years ago. I cannot remember their names but they deserve the credit for providing quality information regarding the 914 3.2 engine conversion. Some more names are Sir Andy (3.6 conversion), McMark, Brad Mayeur; Yes, even Brad Roberts (disregarding the Politico Events, he really helped people including myself). Just so many who have done a great job in providing information so we can do our hobby, building Sixer 3.2 conversions. Enough said about that.

There is information available from these different sources that should at least give a background in what has been used; and, the people who answered this thread as well as other historic contributors can give you information. Pelican Board has a very good general background paper and list of parts including what to generally look for during the conversion. There many pros and cons concerning such things as transmission to which MoveQik states and alludes to when using the 901 transaxle.

I think the extra items which some of you are getting to can be readily provided but may be out of timing with this thread. I would like to keep the thread within the frame work of the electrical and problems surrounding it. Generally, we can give you whatever information that you need to get a valid pro and con using a one-on-one basis; or, we can undertake that information as everyone needs it.

You have to participate in getting a background on this info since you will be the one doing the work (hopefully), and you can have understanding in what is going on within your electrical, fuel, etc. systems.

Sorry I got long winded but the more you understand, the easier the conversion will be.

It's obvious you've not just done the research but thought alot about this conversion. What have you decided to do for oil cooling? I will convert the on engine cooler to the 90 degree fitting but I'm still undecided about running lines to the front of my car. Your thoughts? Thanks, mark

[shoguneagle]

Has everyone got a basic understanding of what is happening regarding the wiring??

We have not touched on the oil pressure, oil temperature, vacuum gauge, etc. wiring. This should fall into place after you get use to what is going on with the changes thus far.

It has also be asked for my opinion regarding oil cooler, hoses, etc. Also, what I have done to my car. The way I am going to answer the question which I think is one of how to get the project started and completed to a running state. I did not want to get involved in this yet since there are still many practical questions to be answered. One of guys is planning on getting his conversion done some where around the first of the year. So the following is the way I am going to answer it with the express idea of building to running state.

Please, anyone chip in and add their comments especially in areas I may have left out or made wrong comments.

First, let us get away from the front oil cooler and what the needs/opinions are since it is not necessary to get the car running. Mark, I will send you more detailed information regarding additional items (including oil cooler, etc) after I finish this thread addition.

What is needed to get the engine in the car and running:

engine sheet metal
front engine mount
914-6 oil tank or equivalent
oil system hoses
rear transmission mounts
modified shift rod with new bush, pins, universal joint, etc.
KEP clutch package including ring
cut knotches in 901/915 transmission bell-housing
1984-86 ??? flywheel
throttle rod, yoke assembly
modified throttle engine yoke assembly (throw needs to be reversed, 911)
headers at least (no heat - separate problem which can be solved after engine
is running; electric heater, gas heater, heat exchangers, etc.)
electric connections being discussed in this thread
engine oil cooler with 90degree elbow modification (to clear left suspension)
exhaust muffler
installation of fuel pump, fuel filter, and lines

There may be more and please add to this check list freely so that we may get all present and future Sixer builders the information on sources and parts. I think all the parts can still be obtained either through Auto Atlanta, Pelican Parts, A914Guy, and others. A list can be developed but do not forget our own 914world, 914club manufacturers/suppliers.

I guess I have opened everything up for comments and additional information from everyone in order to assist our new "Sixers".

Now to comment on several areas including the front oil cooler.

Front Oil Cooler: is going to be somewhat expensive; you may need it in the summer time in North East, South East, Mid-west, and Southwest including Southern California; there are many opinions on this subject matter on many different boards and I will not make any comments because I do not know the answer; each has to determine for him/her self. With that comment made, the items needed will be hoses re routing the engine output side to the thermostat/bypass valve, one line returning from thermostat/bypass valve to the oil tank; one thermostat/bypass valve; two lines to/from front oil cooler; front oil cooler and mounting; shrouding; air inlet and outlet; fan system;etc.
As mentioned before it gets expensive quickly and it does not affect the problem of getting your engine installed and running. This system can be added later when you can concentrate on it entirely. Very similar to adding 911 e-brake, different CV joints, axles, bearings, stud shafts, etc.
There are some very good expertise on the subjects coming up later in the total car build; these sources are McMark, Sir Andy, Joe Sharpe, Rootwerks ???, A914Guy, Pelican, Auto Atlanta, our 914world and 914club boards, Brad Mayeur, Perry Kiehl in Tennessee, and many others. Even the "Great Doc Evil" is somewhat of a source. KEP (Kennedy out of Palmdale, CA). Cannot mention everyone but you get the general idea.

Again, who every wants to comment come-on aboard!!!!

[shoguneagle]

What have I done to my car?? First one has to understand my background being involved with cars, etc. I enjoy the engineering aspects and the restoring of our cars. I deal mostly in roller chassis which need some kind of tender car. Because of this base, I do not stay with stock restoration. I like to modify and make changes. I am on the second 914 build which both came from the junk yard; the first was a Chev V-8 conversion before this type conversion became popular; not much in the way of parts and kits as there are available today. The second is the present car which has extensive mods to it including all the questions and problems any builder is facing today.

From the front of the car, I have put an oil cooler with appropriate lines, cooler, thermo/bypass valve (Troutman style, original style) mounted in the right forward engine bay, and some additional items tied to the oil system which I will not comment on until I see if it works. I have installed four front turbo fans (250 cfm each) and ducted air exit from the oil cooler

At first i was going to use a 2.2 or 2.7 engine but deferred to the 3.2 based on the Motronic Fuel Injection System, wiring engine to car, clutch/flywheel conversion, engine dependability, exhaust side case bolt problems, engine availability, altitude, temperature ranges in high country, desert, and seasonal traveling.

I have installed a 1987 Carrera front suspension and brake system; added new brake rotors - drilled and slotted in front; front 21mm torsion bars; 22mm swaybar; turbo tie-rods; rebuilt rack & pinion; new front inner and outer wheel bearing; 23mm brake master cylinder (planning larger brakes later; use 19mm on 914, 914-6 or even Carrera brakes; again alot of experience on this matter; see Eric Shea on brakes).

I have also rebuilt my pedal assembly, put in both inner long/cross member bracing and outer longs, upholstery installed, gear shift rebuilt, 911 instruments and dash cover. I have wired in the oil temperature and pressure gauges, vacuum gauge, amp gauge, oil cooler fan switches and relays, harness change from '74 to '73, stainless steel brake hoses (many think original rubber hoses are better; change these hoses every two years), 3.2 Carrera 1987 engine with all the requirements mentioned previously, etc.

In addition, I am running 911 Cup II l7 inch rims: 7in in front; 9in in back; 2in spaces in front; 1.5 inch spacers in rear (have to check if anyone needs information); fiberglas wide fenders; 901 transaxle (will handle the 3.2 but be careful with first and second gears).

I am running a 911 oil tank in the rear trunk of the car with double batteries. My reasoning for using the 911 Carrera oil tank is to match the oil capacity requirements of the 3.2 engine and it allows me to place it in the rear trunk with room to spare. I had rust in the back so I just cut out rust and made a tank installation. I added double batteries in parallel to provide a safty margin for the front oil cooling fans that I added. My calculations show I am right under the output on the generator so the extra capacity in the batteries should be enough of a margin. Not all the fans will be required at once most of the time;

I also added 911 foot well heater fans inside the car; we will see how the electric load covers all the electrical needs.

The heat source is going to be engine oil right out of the engine; I want the engine to run 180-200 degrees even on the hottest days in the desert. The heat exchanger will give me extra cooling capacity from the engine oil stand point. Engine oil appears to heat up at the rate as coolant. The front oil cooler also affects this system so we will see how effective it works both for the hottest days and the coldest days. Experimental now; hopefully practical in the future.

A possible oil cooler which can be used in lieu of the front cooler and lines is one found in the NASCAR/hot rod arenas. It is one usually made of finned aluminum ranging from 18 inches to 36 inches and can be mounted along the longs. It probably can be used without a thermostat/bypass valve if kept close to the engine oil outlet (say within the engine compartment and used in line with the return hose to the tank; range of cooling 10-20 stated by some people who have used them). I have also seen one setup and priced at $200.00 plus dollars which is on the engine inlet side from the oil tank. I question whether cooling on that side is where I want any cooler. I think it should be on the engine outlet side. Need to plan and evaluate this possibility along with the front oil cooler after you get your engine installed and running.

Future plans involve rear 911 Carrera and E-brake conversion (yes, I am going to call on Eric Shea for this) and changing rear half shafts/CV joints (yes, I am going to start with Sir Andy on this), Sway-A-Way 20.5 inch shafts, 911 hubs (early), 100mm CV joints, etc.

Rear suspension and front suspension have Koni Adjustables installed; the rear has adjustable perches and 180-200 lb springs; rear sway bar stock 16mm (to install locked differential later).

That should be it in a "nutshell" and "Yes" I have looked and thought about many things along the path of being a totally "Sicko" regarding Porsche. What an enjoyable path to follow and that is because of the people you get involved with. I enjoy projects and Porsche people who are doing their own thing!!!

Mark, I hope this is the information you wanted with some of my comments; at least it is a basis to add to any questions you may have. I am not an expert on this car or any car changes; you must learn these things for yourself which will add tremendously to you Porsche Hobby.

Boy, do I talk - this is the most I have every said in one setting.

Again, Pardon me being long-winded.

Steve Hurt

[jim912928]

I bought and learned how to use a multimeter! So, after pouring through all the "current flow diagrams" and all the good electric information supplied so far...I thought I'd publish how the Patrick Motorsports 914-4 to 3.2l conversion harness is pinned out (eliminates the relay board). Note, he has also provisioned some extra wires on both ends of the harness to help with six gauges on one side and 914-4 heater blower on the 914 side. So, here is my crudely done diagram (sorry...used powerpoint to draw it)!