Andyrews Progress Thread, 1/16/22 A Trip to The Red Barn - Lets fab a Firewall! Options

[Andyrew]

Lots went on this weekend!

Saturday was Build day at The Red Barn hosted by Chris @tygaboy!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=337633

As per usual I got a lot done but its never enough!

I should really go up there myself for a day and just work with all his tools... Just a killer awesome fab shop he has!


What I made! Center console pieces. They are just laying there right now, I'll be fabricating mounting points for them and trimming the pieces to fit then upholstering them. Not sure if black or brown yet or possibly both.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-172-1558250750_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-172-1558250829_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-172-1558250842_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-172-1558250853_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-172-1558250868_thumb.jpg)

Very comfortable arm position, Could be higher but uphostery pads will raise it some. As it sits now its a stretch to hold the wheel and rest the elbow at the same time, that will change.

[Andyrew]

Dyno day on Sunday went pretty well.


Ended up making 8lbs of boost actual manifold pressure on the wastegate and that did 247hp/198tq at the wheels. This was about 50 more than I was expecting which was the highlight of the day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My boost controller was reading boost inaccurately so while I was showing 17+lbs of boost I was really only making 14psi. I had some spikes to 16psi but with a 7lb spring in the wastegate as we suspect right now we can only effectively double that and we didnt make any more power/boost after 14psi. So while the setup was ready for us to make 25psi yesterday we werent able to go over 14.


What did that net us?
282HP/258tq at the wheels. Its interesting, that 40ish hp delta between wastegate and max on this actuator feels way more than it actually is.


So whats next? I have a dual port internal wastegate actuator on order.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg-warner...-port-actuator/

I'll put the small 7lb spring in it and then I can run the same 7psi but it will let me bump up the spring to what I want to do (30psi). I figured I could get into the 20's before the wastegate would let me go anymore but we were absolutely wrong.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

At that point what will hold me back is the intake manifold and cams. You can see my power curve rolls over about 6600. Which for an engine built to run to 9k and running this large of a turbo is wasted potential. Cams would bump my power curve up but it would also extend it out considerably.
This explains why It fell on its face after 7k. I'll do this next year. This year will be focusing on driving and finishing the majority of the car. Next year we'll go for power.

Side note, If I put cams and an intake on it, we would be into the 500whp territory... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)




Biggest thing about yesterday was the clutch though. Were having issues with the clutch dragging/ not fully disengaging when the engine is hot. This must be my shifting issue. When were doing back to back pulls with the engine hot we simply couldnt get it into gear... I had to force it in third gear to get the car rolling on the dyno then do the pull from there...
I'll try replacing the slave cylinder (I have a cast iron one on hand) and bleed the system again, then also extend the rod from the slave to as much as I can. The next option is the flywheel is a self adjusting unit and I've never reset it. I'll try that and put a new disk on. It might just be at the end of its travel and wont release any more even though its "released". Finally a new disk will just ensure its not the disk itself expanding when it gets hot.



And lastly, the starting issue is not fixed. But either starting works. We got it a bit better but it always starts with either.

[Andyrew]

Dynos




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3P0h9JyGbc

[dan10101]

Dynos

I personally like the 288/251 number myself. But that number will be surpassed in days to come. if it never does, it will still be a screamer..

[76-914]

Sounds great Andrew! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Andyrew]

Dynos

I personally like the 288/251 number myself. But that number will be surpassed in days to come. if it never does, it will still be a screamer..

It was pulling some timing so we backed the timing off a hair. However Look at the dyno curve. the 282/258 had significantly more power under the curve. It has a more aggressive boost curve programed into it on the low end which is why... But it just wouldnt push more boost in the end.

Its ok. I've been told the tune is safe for 25psi on the street as it sits. Also its a hair rich so I can safely add a gallon of E85 on it and bump the octane significantly.


Side note on all the dyno runs. We didnt see intake air temps over 30deg C for the entire run. Which means the air hitting the cylinders after pressurization was only 85F.... If that doesnt push you turbo guys to air to water intercoolers I dont know what will...

[jd74914]

Ended up making 8lbs of boost actual manifold pressure on the wastegate and that did 247hp/198tq at the wheels. This was about 50 more than I was expecting which was the highlight of the day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So whats next? I have a dual port internal wastegate actuator on order.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg-warner...-port-actuator/

I'll put the small 7lb spring in it and then I can run the same 7psi but it will let me bump up the spring to what I want to do (30psi). I figured I could get into the 20's before the wastegate would let me go anymore but we were absolutely wrong.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Very nice!

Yeah, typically wastegate springs need to be about 1/2 desired boost in my experience. Easy change for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Side note on all the dyno runs. We didnt see intake air temps over 30deg C for the entire run. Which means the air hitting the cylinders after pressurization was only 85F.... If that doesnt push you turbo guys to air to water intercoolers I dont know what will...

Do you measure air temperatures at the compressor exit before the intercooler?

Comp Turbo is a bit sketchy since they don't publish compressor/turbine maps (claiming they are proprietary which is total BS), but I'm wondering if you're operating at a 75+% efficient point in the map with your current conservative pressure ratio and corresponding air flows. That might make your IC setup look a really good. It'll be interesting to see when you go to higher pressures.

[Andyrew]

Ended up making 8lbs of boost actual manifold pressure on the wastegate and that did 247hp/198tq at the wheels. This was about 50 more than I was expecting which was the highlight of the day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So whats next? I have a dual port internal wastegate actuator on order.
https://www.full-race.com/store/borg-warner...-port-actuator/

I'll put the small 7lb spring in it and then I can run the same 7psi but it will let me bump up the spring to what I want to do (30psi). I figured I could get into the 20's before the wastegate would let me go anymore but we were absolutely wrong.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Very nice!

Yeah, typically wastegate springs need to be about 1/2 desired boost in my experience. Easy change for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Side note on all the dyno runs. We didnt see intake air temps over 30deg C for the entire run. Which means the air hitting the cylinders after pressurization was only 85F.... If that doesnt push you turbo guys to air to water intercoolers I dont know what will...

Do you measure air temperatures at the compressor exit before the intercooler?

Comp Turbo is a bit sketchy since they don't publish compressor/turbine maps (claiming they are proprietary which is total BS), but I'm wondering if you're operating at a 75+% efficient point in the map with your current conservative pressure ratio and corresponding air flows. That might make your IC setup look a really good. It'll be interesting to see when you go to higher pressures.

IAT's were measured in the manifold.

[jd74914]

Sorry, should have been clearer, I meant did you measure before the intercooler too?

[Andyrew]

No I did not. Ambient was about 70

[Andyrew]

Tried the metal slave cyl. The quality on the unit looks great. But the damn bleed screw is metal on metal.... What idiot thought that would work? Won't hold pressure, bleed screw was cast so I cleaned up the castings and still no go. Damn thing needs a rubber seal. I might experiment with one sometime later but I have a spare plastic slave.

First things first was to try and get fluid to pull through the line... No luck. I'm going to need someone else to help me with this as this fkin thing is not working. I messaged a friend so hopefully tomorrow or Friday I'll have the clutch properly bled.


I can hear some air by the master so who knows.... the whole thing is not well layed out for a good bleeding. Really needs a power bleeder and not s vacuum bleeder.

If this doesn't work I suspect pressure plate needs alignment. If that doesn't work, new clutch/pp. If that doesn't work. Add more lever action to pedal assembly. If that doesn't work....... Pay someone smarter?

Ugh.

[914 Ranch]

Yeah, I hate that last step too.

[Cairo94507]

Andrew - Great meeting you at Chris' shop last weekend. I hope to see your car one of these times. It sounds amazing. Cheers, Michael

[tygaboy]

@Andyrew - Let's pick a date that works to have you come over and do more fab work.
Also, let me know if you want me to send the panel you left here or if you're OK waiting til you're here next.
Talk soon!
Chris

[76-914]

I can hear some air by the master so who knows.... the whole thing is not well layed out for a good bleeding. Really needs a power bleeder and not s vacuum bleeder.

Ugh.

My reservoir is the highest point I'm my system. The lowest is where it exits the tunnel via the clutch tube. From there it is strapped up against the engine/trans, then level about 1' then up to the slave. In order to bleed the system I remove the strap at the engine/trans creating a temporary "new" low spot. Next I break the flare nut loose at the slave cylinder and wait to let gravity do it's job. The next morning I top off the reservoir then pump clutch and bleed the remainder of the air and clamp. Finally the tube is strapped back to the engine/trans.
I didn't plan or foresee this method. I just got lucky. There aren't any "peaks and valleys" in the line. It flows downhill from reservoir to MC to the low spot I "create" by removing a strap. And that low point is only 2' from and directly below the SC.
I'd say stay after it but I don't believe you need any encouragement at this point. See you at WCR.

[dan10101]

Tried the metal slave cyl. The quality on the unit looks great. But the damn bleed screw is metal on metal.... What idiot thought that would work? Won't hold pressure, bleed screw was cast so I cleaned up the castings and still no go. Damn thing needs a rubber seal. I might experiment with one sometime later but I have a spare plastic slave.

First things first was to try and get fluid to pull through the line... No luck. I'm going to need someone else to help me with this as this fkin thing is not working. I messaged a friend so hopefully tomorrow or Friday I'll have the clutch properly bled.
...

Send me a pict of your slave, I have a spare, it's a pull type.

I'll bring my Mityvac pressure bleeder down JIC. I just need to see your reservoir cap.

[Andyrew]

Tried the metal slave cyl. The quality on the unit looks great. But the damn bleed screw is metal on metal.... What idiot thought that would work? Won't hold pressure, bleed screw was cast so I cleaned up the castings and still no go. Damn thing needs a rubber seal. I might experiment with one sometime later but I have a spare plastic slave.

First things first was to try and get fluid to pull through the line... No luck. I'm going to need someone else to help me with this as this fkin thing is not working. I messaged a friend so hopefully tomorrow or Friday I'll have the clutch properly bled.
...

Send me a pict of your slave, I have a spare, it's a pull type.

I'll bring my Mityvac pressure bleeder down JIC. I just need to see your reservoir cap.

Its tiny. Think motorcycle. Like 1.5" I was thinking I would get a spare cap, drill a hole in it and put a nipple on it so I can pressurize it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Audi-Porsche-B...7M/152549321531

[Andyrew]

I can hear some air by the master so who knows.... the whole thing is not well layed out for a good bleeding. Really needs a power bleeder and not s vacuum bleeder.

Ugh.

My reservoir is the highest point I'm my system. The lowest is where it exits the tunnel via the clutch tube. From there it is strapped up against the engine/trans, then level about 1' then up to the slave. In order to bleed the system I remove the strap at the engine/trans creating a temporary "new" low spot. Next I break the flare nut loose at the slave cylinder and wait to let gravity do it's job. The next morning I top off the reservoir then pump clutch and bleed the remainder of the air and clamp. Finally the tube is strapped back to the engine/trans.
I didn't plan or foresee this method. I just got lucky. There aren't any "peaks and valleys" in the line. It flows downhill from reservoir to MC to the low spot I "create" by removing a strap. And that low point is only 2' from and directly below the SC.
I'd say stay after it but I don't believe you need any encouragement at this point. See you at WCR.

I've got a decent amount of loops in the line and I tried that last night essentially. We will see what actually happened.

I really think pressure is required from the reservoir side.

[Andyrew]

Andrew - Great meeting you at Chris' shop last weekend. I hope to see your car one of these times. It sounds amazing. Cheers, Michael

You to Michael! It was fun chatting with you and your brother (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Andyrew]

@Andyrew - Let's pick a date that works to have you come over and do more fab work.
Also, let me know if you want me to send the panel you left here or if you're OK waiting til you're here next.
Talk soon!
Chris

Agreed. I've been debating back and forth about what makes sense for me, to try and make another day up there or to just push forward myself here and have you ship it... I need another bend in it which is why it was on the brake, but I was trying to figure out the measurement and how to use your machine.


It really makes a lot of sense for me to come up there again with the car. I could get the center console done as well as the lower and possibly the upper dash pretty much in a day. (You know my quality standards so I would just bust through those things now that im familiar with many of your tools a bit more)