Just another damned project thread, 914-6 3.2 conversion in GT dress-up Options

[Randal]

It doesn't seem to matter what it costs.. Our kit program is slammed until November and we only have one slot left open then for a February 2012 delivery.

To build an engine from scratch like this is a 10K+ expenditure to incklude the kit, induction, exhaust and ancillaries. In turn key form its around 13K hot off my dyno in a crate like this one, ready to run.

So you are saying that a turn key engine just like this is 13K? Thats what I am reading here. Must have missed that one on the website (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This combo isn't on the site as an advertised offering. This is a full custom build that I choose to offer to some purchasers that have cars that are properly set up for this type of power.

Yes it is expensive and it always will be.

I foresee a time when you will have to go through an interview to buy a Raby Kit. There aren't many cases of this but Jake has a hard time tolerating stupidity. By that I mean people who build it and then don't tune it correctly or don't have the proper gauges or don't use the proper oil. If it doesn't run right you should find out why, not keep driving it until you break it. Bad things usually don't get better and when something is this expensive to buy and build it just seems to be common sense to figure out what is wrong and correct it. I guess common sense isn't as common as it once was though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

My car has Elephant bushings, Tarret bar in front, adjustable Koni's, Camber bushings and sealed monoball in the suspension. All topped off with a meticulous corner balancing. My 901 has been built with a billet intermediate plate and a Guard TB unit. I have an M 3rd and S 4th gear in there and Jake would be a proud papa if I fractured that thing with the torque. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

What have you done with your CV's Rob?

FYI my brand new (stock) ones lasted about 20 runs, then fell apart. 944 CV need to be in your future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

[ConeDodger]

It doesn't seem to matter what it costs.. Our kit program is slammed until November and we only have one slot left open then for a February 2012 delivery.

To build an engine from scratch like this is a 10K+ expenditure to incklude the kit, induction, exhaust and ancillaries. In turn key form its around 13K hot off my dyno in a crate like this one, ready to run.

So you are saying that a turn key engine just like this is 13K? Thats what I am reading here. Must have missed that one on the website (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This combo isn't on the site as an advertised offering. This is a full custom build that I choose to offer to some purchasers that have cars that are properly set up for this type of power.

Yes it is expensive and it always will be.

I foresee a time when you will have to go through an interview to buy a Raby Kit. There aren't many cases of this but Jake has a hard time tolerating stupidity. By that I mean people who build it and then don't tune it correctly or don't have the proper gauges or don't use the proper oil. If it doesn't run right you should find out why, not keep driving it until you break it. Bad things usually don't get better and when something is this expensive to buy and build it just seems to be common sense to figure out what is wrong and correct it. I guess common sense isn't as common as it once was though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

My car has Elephant bushings, Tarret bar in front, adjustable Koni's, Camber bushings and sealed monoball in the suspension. All topped off with a meticulous corner balancing. My 901 has been built with a billet intermediate plate and a Guard TB unit. I have an M 3rd and S 4th gear in there and Jake would be a proud papa if I fractured that thing with the torque. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

What have you done with your CV's Rob?

FYI my brand new (stock) ones lasted about 20 runs, then fell apart. 944 CV need to be in your future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

Paul Sayegh had his custom made for his 3.6 conversion. I plan on doing the same. For now, I'll just plan on breaking them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I foresee a time when you will have to go through an interview to buy a Raby Kit

This morning in a meeting my team agreed that engine kits are taking way too much away from our turnkey focus and moreover are sucking up our parts that are used for the turnkey program.

Due to this we have decided to only complete SIX engine kits per year and to only process them in November- February.

This is effective immediately, the November batch for 2011 is already filled with deposited commitments from buyers. These will be delivered in February of 2012. We will be accepting applications for those who want to be part of the batch of kits that begin in November of 2012 and deliver in February of 2013 sometime in the next 3-4 months.

This is the only way we can continue the engine kit program, it is too demanding labor and component wise to do year round and is such a great program that we can't cancel it. Offerings will stay the same as well as all the other processes, we will simply only do the one batch of kits per year.

Rob, You got the only 2432cc kit we ever produced.

[ConeDodger]

Rob, You got the only 2432cc kit we ever produced.

I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ConeDodger]

What was once a pile of wires is now a fuel injection harness! Plans are to mock it up and tune it without load on the engine stand this week...

Stay tuned! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

Seems I jumped the gun. Mark is buried in work that has to get out due to his recent vacation to the You Pee in Michigan. So we might be a week or two out yet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[McMark]

It's your fault for adding that AAR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)


That holds water, right?

[ConeDodger]

It's your fault for adding that AAR. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)


That holds water, right?

So far... but there is a slow leak (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Oh and Mark, I think I will take today off and just vegetate. By 8:45am I had all that I could take for today... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I will not be coming down...

Edit: I was being cryptic here. It was too painful to type the words. At 8:45am my Golden Retriever Chloe who was a few weeks shy of her 17th birthday died. She waited for me to return from Reno and died in my arms. She was a Search and Rescue dog and I was her host family until she retired then she was all mine. If I was home, she would never leave my side and I still look for her lying on the garage floor as I work on the car...

[wndsrfr]

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

[ConeDodger]

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

John,
I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. While I appreciate the offer to PM or call, I want to keep the discussion open to everyone so that we can all learn from our collaborative experience.
The manifold will take individual vacuum signal from each throttle body throat and output their average to the MAP sensor. Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation. This is something Dave Hunt did with his and it works. By the way, Dave has the best running Type IV motor I have ever driven. He tossed me the keys at WCR2011 and said 'go drive' and I came back grinning.

[Randal]

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

We had the same issue on Roger Crawfords dyno down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run so the right decision was made.

[Randal]

As you're working with the SDS system, watch carefully the use of the MAP sensing--I couldn't ever get my 2316 to work really right with the vacuum numbers jumping around so much from the ragged signal that the huge TB's and 9560 cam produced. Typical vacuum numbers were around 6-10"Hg and varying rapidly on the SDS readout. Throttle response at AX and a DE at VIR was not linear at all.
After much discussion with Barry & Ross at SDS, I dropped the MAP sensing and went to TP sensing. Did it as their literature describes, then dyno'd it to do the final map. It's a procedure that has to be carefully followed, but has worked like a dream on my engine. Took it to another AX and DE & got perfect throttle response throughout the range. PM me for phone contact if you want.

John

We had the same issue on Roger Crawford's dyno (Heads-Up Performance) down in LA with my 2.4. Decided to go with the TP positioning as well and it worked. We had some pretty heady folks at that dyno run and made what has proved to be the right decision.

[ConeDodger]

I found this on the SDS FAQ on their site. This adds to the discussion. SDS seems to be saying that the driveability issues are acceptable to race engines. However, both of the people who bring up this issue are running race engines and found the problem unacceptable. When I ordered my system, I made it clear that the engine would be in a street car that was autocrossed frequently and did occasional track days. I believe I was talking to Ross and he made no mention of this problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) There is the possibility that the problem has been programmed out of the later ECU's but I doubt that...

08/13/03 Concerns When Using Multiple Throttle Plate Induction Systems

We have recently had several calls from people running induction systems with one throttle plate per cylinder and independent runner manifolds using our systems on street driven vehicles. These people often complain of marginal driveability under low throttle openings and/or low rpm conditions. We have never recommended the use of our systems with IR manifolds for the street, especially when using a MAP sensor for load sensing. The situation is worsened when combining this hardware with hotter cams, resulting in an unacceptable vacuum signal for the MAP sensor. This is race type hardware, generally not suitable for street use unless the user accepts decreased driveability and/or switches to TP load sensing

The vacuum averaging canister required on IR applications will result in a lower than actual vacuum reading than would be seen on a plenum type manifold setup due to the fact that all the ports which don't have a valve open to establish flow are leaking air into the canister. There is no way around this and this is the reason why few OEMs use speed density EFI systems with this hardware, they usually use an airflow/mass sensing system instead. Also, 95% of all production cars use plenum type manifolds. Our general rule of thumb for using a MAP sensor in any street application is a minimum of 15 inches of idle vacuum. Less than this any you may have to switch to TP load sensing with its own disadvantages. Race stuff on the street is usually fraught with compromises often not worth the gains in power after you live with the car for a while. Big, open mufflers bore into your brain on the highway, hot cams make the bottom end, driveability, fuel economy and emissions suck, huge turbos have big lag and high compression/high boost leads to detonation and broken engines running on pump fuel. Use your noggin here and don't expect miracles.

[ConeDodger]

Below is the procedure from SDS for tuning with TPS only. I anticipate Dave Hunt joining this discussion later as he is probably tuning someone's teeth right about now. I wonder what Dave did?

Tuning TPS Only Systems

01/21/99 Revised 04/18/00

About 95% of the systems that we ship out use a MAP sensor. For engines with radical camshafts, low volume IR (individual runner) type manifolds or 2 strokes, the TPS can be used for load sensing. After spending several hours on the phone recently, helping customers tune their TPS systems, we decided to see how difficult this really was. Using our trusty Toyota Supra, we switched the ECU to read the TPS rather than the MAP sensor for load information.

Working on what we thought would be a reasonable curve for TP values vs. throttle angle, we started the car. It took only a few seconds to get the idle smooth. We spent some time upping the values just above closed throttle to stop a lean condition just when the clutch was let out. Then it was out to the highway for major setup.

It took about 30 minutes, using the mixture meter to get the TP map set quite well. By changing the RPM values below the normal idle range, we were able to get really good response and driveability everywhere. The mixture meter makes tuning much quicker and we highly recommend them for both TP and MAP systems.

Here is our recommended tuning procedure for TP systems:

Read the closed or idle Throttle Position in Gauge 1 mode.

Go into the TP values and enter 30 at this throttle position.

As a start, increase the values at each subsequent TP by 2 per location.

Now, start the engine and change the RPM FUEL values at idle rpm to obtain a smooth idle.

Enter the same RPM FUEL value all the way up the rpms. For instance if it idles great with a fuel value of 100 at 1000 rpm, enter 100 at all the rpm ranges.

Drive the car on the highway using 4th or 5th gear. A stretch of road with some hills may be helpful. Leave the rpm fairly constant by using the brake or hill to limit acceleration. Hold something like 3000 rpm and slowly open the throttle while watching the TP in gauge 1 mode.

At each new TP, look at the mixture meter and see if it is rich or lean at that TP. If it is lean at TP 13 for example, increase the value at TP 13 until the mixture meter reads correctly. It is essential that the TP be held at that location while you set the TP value. Also, a change in rpm may change the mixture slightly as well, so try to hold rpm constant with the brakes. Remember to vary only one parameter at a time so that you know which one is affecting the mixture.

Once you have set the TP value at 13, go on to 14 and so on. Going up a hill when you start getting close to full throttle will help save the brakes a bit.

Now, with all the TP values set at one rpm range, you want to pick a TP to hold constantly while the rpm is varied. Choose 3rd gear so that you don't get a big ticket and a TP of 20 for example. Hold the TP at 20 in gauge 1 mode and let the car accelerate while watching the mixture meter.

Note the rpm in gauge 1 where the mixture changes from what you want. If the engine is running nicely at 3000 to 3500 but starts to lean out at 4000, you can increase the RPM FUEL value a bit starting at 3750 rpm and a bit more at 4000.

Use the brakes to stabilize the rpm while you set the value. You can flick between your RPM FUEL set points and Gauge by hitting the gauge button back and forth. This saves a lot of scrolling. Set the RPM FUEL values all the way up at the same TP value. The engine should now run quite well under all TP and RPM conditions.

Once you get it set well on the highway, you can set the off idle range. You may find the engine slightly lean just off idle when letting the clutch out. You might have to ramp up the values on the first 3-6 TP locations above idle TP. We also found that the engine responded better by upping the RPM FUEL values at 500 and 750 rpm which allowed the engine to be slightly richer as the rpm sagged under clutch engagement. With the engine idle at 1000 rpm, these could be adjusted without screwing up the idle mixture.

We always recommend using a MAP sensor for street driven or turbo vehicles whenever possible as they run better and give you more programming options. If you must use a TP system for a race or radical street installation, following the above procedure will work well.

Below is a graph of TP values vs. throttle angle for our test Supra. Also see the complete values set on the Sample fuel maps Page.
TP VALUES GRAPH

Update 04/18/00 Start values

It should be noted that there is a difference between a system set up using TP load sensing as compared to MAP with regards to the amount of fuel supplied during startup. The mixture will be leaner with TP because it chooses the closed throttle value which is around 30 usually whereas a MAP system will chose a value near atmospheric pressure (80 to 110 in most cases). Because of this, you may have to raise the START values or develop a technique of pumping the accelerator during cranking to get enough fuel for good starting.

R.F.

[dlestep]

rob,
I'm anxious to hear about throttle response and how it breathes, once you get it set up fully.
You may already know about this stuff, but I thought I would suggest something just in case.
There are colorized type-able heat shrink labels that you could use identifying signal names near each termination, over black heat shrink tubing to keep the number individual wires to a minimum.
A visit to a local harness contractor could show you alot of cool, clean ways to deal with mechanical articulation, vibration isolation, thermal issues and what not...

something like this...http://www.te.com/catalog/labels-identification/cable/menu/en/23686

[mrbubblehead]

interesting.....on our ktm v-twin FI motorcycles we use map and tps.....map up to 10% throttle position the it switches to tps. its called the F-L switch. the map sensor gives waybetter resolution at lower throttle settings. both the F (map) and L (tps) maps are tunable. as well as the switch. which gives smooth transitions. just like going from idle to mains with carburators.

i dont know why that system wont work with map sensors..... our bikes have 2 throttle bodies for two cylinders on individual runners with one map sensor per runner, and one tps for both tb's. we run huge cams with big valves and dont have a problem.

we use the stock (keihin) ecu that we break into with software to make any change we want.

[mrbubblehead]

we also map each individual cylinder.....unless you have 4 perfectly matched injectors. this is a good read about how different injectors can be...... http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors.htm

[Jake Raby]

The only problem with TP only based set ups is no compensation for atmospheric conditions variations. In my Double Cab with SDS I use TP only up to 2,400 RPM, because after that the effects of the cam and ports doesn't make for nearly as much loss of tunability.

This is one reason I went to work with Electromotive on their new motorcycle systems retrofitted to one of our engines. The ability of this system to include part throttle "mixing" to overcome large cams and lower manifold vacuum has been amazing.

I have been very impressed with the results on the dyno and initially in my 912E, which is almost ready for road testing in everyday conditions as my daily driver. The engine runs so much smoother with the system than it did with any other system. I used Kit Carlson, Link, SDS and a system I was helping another company develop and none had the ability to provide the stable 800 RPM idle and immediate throttle response like the Electromotive set up.

[wndsrfr]

"I have heard that about the vacuum signal. I am hoping that this common manifold will 'even' out the signal to the MAP sensor and solve some if not all of that. "
**Mine has the same 4 into 1 manifold....I even put in a restrictor (wire welder .030 tip) but still had the problem...it just has too little vacuum (high manifold pressure).

"Somehow, we are also using the stock AAR to give me somewhat of a cold start boost that will take the one minute of bitchy motor out of the equation."
**Hmmm...the SDS table gives an engine temp fuel richening curve for cold starts & it's working great for me...cold starting does take 2-3 pumps & maybe 10 seconds of holding 2000rpm, then it settles into a nice lope. As it warms up, the SDS leans the mixture and eventually switches into closed loop as I've currently got it set. With the chronically low oil pressure when the engine's hot hot from a hard run, I have the idle set about 1200rpm to avoid low oil pressure.

I think Barry & Ross's part about driveability on the street with a race setup is to let buyers know that it's not going to behave like your stock BMW/Volvo/Porsche with a factory system. I've got no issues with driveability on TP load sensing.

Something to note is that with these torquey engines in such a light car, in street driving, you're just barely cracking the throttle plates & are exceeding 55mph. For instance, with the throttle slam closed it's at TP 5. (TP at WOT is 50.) Driving in 4th gear at TP 6 gives 50mph & 5th gear gives 60mph with the throttle still at TP 6, going to TP 7 with a little headwind. Half the time as traffic dictates or in a 45 speed limit zone I'm cruising within the throttle range of TP 5. There's just hardly anything the injection system can use when your car idles at 55mph....
All the rest of the throttle plate's movement is reserved for those "wild hair" moments--oops, meant to say "tuning pulls" and the DE's & AX's....

[wndsrfr]

This engine will be distributorless so this is a couple shots of the Original Customs Hall Sensor mount. Also notice, the crankcase vent that was custom built by Jeff Hines (sixnotfour). This is replacing the distributor and venting the crankcase.

Hey, I want one of those vents for mine...can't wait to plug off those pesky head lines....how can I get one??

Also, I noticed that the oil lines to the filter & cooler are barb fitting hoses. I just got the Potomac PCA DE tech inspection form & it forbids any pressurized oil lines with press on fittings, clamps or no. Soooo....since I really didn't like the looks of all those hose clamps on mine, I removed them, went to my friendly NAPA store and got proper hoses made up...cost $115....looks much better & should pass tech with flying colors.

[ConeDodger]

Hey, I want one of those vents for mine...can't wait to plug off those pesky head lines....how can I get one??

John,
You may be able to get one by contacting sixnotfour here on the site. He is the machinist who made it up for me...

TPS tuning only may be a problem for me. I have homes in both Sacramento (sea level) and Reno (4500 feet above sea level). I work in Reno.

Is it possible to tune with with MAP for 10% of throttle and then TPS with SDS? I don't think my cam is as radical as yours either John. I am running the same cam that was in my 2270 Raby Kit.

I like your oil lines but the PCA rules are precisely why I don't do TT with them. Sac Valley Region cuddles up with Trackmasters for DE and they don't have the rules. If I were to do a PCA TT I would have to use my 36 year old stock seatbelts instead of my competition belts... I am a dedicated PCA member but I can't see how that is safer than the 'compromise' of using competition belts without shoulder belt guides or whatever reason they disallow them.