Aside from the cache, why a six over a four with same h.p.? Smoothness?, 1970-1976 914-4, 914-6 Options

[mepstein]

A 200-250hp 4 is a specialized exotic beast. A 3.2-3.6 six with 210-260 hp is an off the shelf engine. But you really should drive one before you make a decision on paper.

[Steve]

Do a search.. This has been hashed over hundreds of times in previous threads.
Here's a good thread.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=15842

Thank you, but the answers I was seeking are more of a hands-on personal nature, not just theory, power, and torque, and members have been kind enough to respond.

That thread does have my personal experience in it. In my first 914, I installed a 2.4 liter four banger. It lasted 10k miles before sucking a valve. Then it lasted about 12k miles before a ring gave out. I had about $8k in the motor and overhauls before I gave up and installed a six. My six has never left me stranded. I also have the same comments as other six drivers. I have over 150k miles on my 3.2 with no leaks and still has high compression. After my bad experience with the big four I am somewhat jaded and would never waste my money on one again. I have heard good things about Jakes motors, but I have not heard from anyone that has had one with over 100k miles on it.

[a914622]

For me its all about long term durability. Im getting to old to be tearing into an engine every couple of years. Not that I dont like to, i just want to worry about the destination and the radio station.

Back in the day i was always pulling the type 1 and redoing heads or changing cams. Even the little 1.6 diesel got a hot rod motor that only lasted 2 years.


I am in process of putting a svx engine back together. It had 196,000 miles on it and i did not find one thing out of factory spec on the tear down ! Even the pistons have no scuff marks on them. 250 hp - 200k miles and the same firing order as a 911 SWEET im in.


jcl

[unpolire]

I am in process of putting an svx engine back together. It had 196,000 miles on it and i did not find one thing out of factory spec on the tear down ! Even the pistons have no scuff marks on them. 250 hp - 200k miles and the same firing order as a 911 SWEET im in.


jcl

When the SVX was new, I recall one magazine road test, by Automobile, in which they uniquely declared that they would not change a thing. If it had stayed in production and been refined like a 911, it would be one absolutely amazing car today, turbocharged with a 6-speed or CVT.

[shuie]

overhead cams, the sound of MFI at 7000+ RPM, the fan, the sound, because it's a Porsche

[unpolire]

Do a search.. This has been hashed over hundreds of times in previous threads.
Here's a good thread.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=15842

Thank you, but the answers I was seeking are more of a hands-on personal nature, not just theory, power, and torque, and members have been kind enough to respond.

That thread does have my personal experience in it. In my first 914, I installed a 2.4 liter four banger. It lasted 10k miles before sucking a valve. Then it lasted about 12k miles before a ring gave out. I had about $8k in the motor and overhauls before I gave up and installed a six. My six has never left me stranded. I also have the same comments as other six drivers. I have over 150k miles on my 3.2 with no leaks and still has high compression. After my bad experience with the big four I am somewhat jaded and would never waste my money on one again. I have heard good things about Jakes motors, but I have not heard from anyone that has had one with over 100k miles on it.

This is very telling and extremely helpful, exactly what I was seeking. I have read the other threads and almost all of the builds. The cost of a 6 conversion seems crazy, considering a non-original 914-6 will never have the ultimate historical value of the original. Maybe the thing is to find an original 6 and store the motor while transplanting a newer 3.2, the engine everyone raves about. I know someone with an original orange 6 that has been correctly stored well over 30 years, but he is a Ferrari guy and probably figures it will one day bring six figures, and he might be right.

[Crazyhippy]

200HP... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Steve]

Do a search.. This has been hashed over hundreds of times in previous threads.
Here's a good thread.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=15842

Thank you, but the answers I was seeking are more of a hands-on personal nature, not just theory, power, and torque, and members have been kind enough to respond.

That thread does have my personal experience in it. In my first 914, I installed a 2.4 liter four banger. It lasted 10k miles before sucking a valve. Then it lasted about 12k miles before a ring gave out. I had about $8k in the motor and overhauls before I gave up and installed a six. My six has never left me stranded. I also have the same comments as other six drivers. I have over 150k miles on my 3.2 with no leaks and still has high compression. After my bad experience with the big four I am somewhat jaded and would never waste my money on one again. I have heard good things about Jakes motors, but I have not heard from anyone that has had one with over 100k miles on it.

This is very telling and extremely helpful, exactly what I was seeking. I have read the other threads and almost all of the builds. The cost of a 6 conversion seems crazy, considering a non-original 914-6 will never have the ultimate historical value of the original. Maybe the thing is to find an original 6 and store the motor while transplanting a newer 3.2, the engine everyone raves about. I know someone with an original orange 6 that has been correctly stored well over 30 years, but he is a Ferrari guy and probably figures it will one day bring six figures, and he might be right.

Beware a big six or any other 220+ hp engine in a 914 is an expensive slippery slope. This is from my personal experience others may vary. After the big four blew up twice, i bought a used 1974 2.7 with a top end overhaul and 40mm webers. What's nice about the 2.7 is that you can use a 2.0 six flywheel and clutch. I also thought the motor matched the stock tranny and gearing quite nicely, but the throttle induced oversteer made the car dangerous in a corner (I wonder if an LSD would of helped?). So i cut off the rear fenders and riveted on GT fiberglass flairs. I now had 205's in the front and 245's in the rear. Problem solved but the car looked like franken porsche. I also installed bigger brakes, 21mm front torsion bars, 22mm front sway bar and 140lb rear springs. I loved the 2.7 but beware of pulled head stud issues if the engine is original and was never overhauled properly. I have also driven a 3.0 and thought it matched the stock gearing quite well, but i am not a fan of the required flywheel adapter and special clutch. You can purchase a 70-71 911 trans and swap the guts with your trans. This will give you a pull clutch versus the stock push clutch and has a much better clutch pedal feel. IMHO these are both nice motors for the 914 gear box. After 10 years my 2.7 started pulling head studs. You will hear popping and have loss of compression. Instead of overhauling the 2.7 I bought a 3.2 from a wrecking yard. That's the motor I have now. I thought the stock trans was nice for autocross and the track, but on the street I think it sucks. First gear is to low now and there is the paranoia of the 3.2 breaking it off the line. 2nd gear is slightly to tall to start out in, so now I either start off in first (if on a hill) and baby it off the line or I start off in second (if I am on flat ground). To solve this problem I now just spent $3k on a 916 kit plus the cost of the 915 trans and LSD and getting it overhauled. I will probably have around 10k in the trans if you include all the other parts and labor in the process. A subi conversion with subi trans would be allot cheaper or a V8 and convert the 914 trans into a four speed (don't use first) would also be a better lower cost option. Or be happy with the hp from a 2.7 or 3.0 motor. A big engine also puts allot of stress on a 914 chassis, so you will also need to strengthen the body with a cage or Engman kit, etc....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[J P Stein]

Let's throw this challenge up to the big 4 aficionados

Here's a chassis dyno chart from the 2.7L 6 in my old car. Now in all the years I've been on this forum I've never seen a T-4 chassis dyno chart in a 914....lots of pretty designs on paper from hero t-4 builders on their own dyno tho but never through the wheels from an independent source. The first one is the 10.5:1 and the other is 9.7:1. Different dynos.

Whatcha got?

[Rand]

4 is lighter, 6 lasts longer

If all you want is <200hp, and you want the most nimble AXer, seems like a 4 is the way to go.

If you want bigger power that isn't a grenade, and/or you want a track car, and/or you want a crazy street car with a sound that is music to your ears...Then you have to go six if you want to stay Porsche air cooled. (I like it wet... LS1 for less $ and even more hp (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif))

For panache, 3.2 or 3.6.

[J P Stein]

The reponse from the T-4 crowd was as I expected.
Randal B. has the only T-4 I've ever seen that lives up the hype thrown around here.
He just drives & enjoys it. By comparison my motor and conversion was cheap.

BTW, proper spelling of the word as used is cachet: A mark or quality, as of distinction, individuality, or authenticity....I write this as the world's worst speeler.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Its a no brainer. The only thing to consider is how much money you have to spend.

Do I love my Raby inspired djet cammed 2056? Hell yes!
Is it twice as fun as a stock 2L? Hell yes!
Is it still a 4? does it sound like a 4? Hell yes!
Would I do a six conversion if I had the bucks? HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See? Simple.





BTW JP, I still drive my car everyday. 12K on the engine in 8 months. Not a problem one.

[J P Stein]

BTW JP, I still drive my car everyday. 12K on the engine in 8 months. Not a problem one.

You'll get no argument from me about the reliability of a 125 hp (or so) T-4.
A good set-up for a 914. My old stocker 2.0 went nearly 100k miles before a rebuild ....according to the records. After 140kish it was toast.....2 cracked heads.....but the bottom end was still good.

[dlestep]

Bought my used '73 914 in 1988 and drove it for a year in Seattle, then drove
it across country, from Washington state to Indiana. Moved wife and kids to
Brandon, Florida, while I stayed in on the job in Indiana. Every three months
I would drive from Indiana to Brandon. Best time, 12:15 minutes (door to door).
Calculate that and you will see that I averaged 85 mph. I did this over a two
year period. Plus being a daily driver.
The four is fun, and can get you tickets just as easily as a Porsche 6.
The 2.4 MFI '72 911 that I had was ...simply Porsche.
I miss the uncapped intakes and overhead chain driven cams topped off with
the sport muffler. My radio never worked and I didn't care. I made my own
music.
I just want to get my '74 off the jack stands ! I've done so much to the chassis
and suspension, I can't wait to feel the changes !

If I had my way I'd do this !!!!!

[ape914]

Now a v-8 is the way to go for reliable, inexpensive, HUGE power.

but the real fun in a 914 is the way they can handle. Even a lowley 1.7 is a blast if set up to handle.

[SirAndy]

Beware a big six or any other 220+ hp engine in a 914 is an expensive slippery slope

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

BTDT, schlippery schlope indeed ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Jake Raby]

You can purchase one of Jake Raby's high horsepower engines that exhibit longevity, but you're going to be into it $11K probably.

Closer to 12-13K in reality these days.. I just updated all the pricing, dyno graphs and etc for my 3 standardized 914 engines a few weeks ago. You can see all of these here
Aircooled Technology 914 Engine Offerings

Here is a good comparison that one of my engine purchasers came up with who was trying to understand exactly what the differences were in stock TIV power and my two engines two most popular 914 engines was and he threw in stock /6 power as well. He ended up purchasing and we'll be testing his engine in two weeks.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net-1095-1333480298.1.jpg)

I have heard good things about Jakes motors, but I have not heard from anyone that has had one with over 100k miles on it.

You will find a few on my forums.. The majority of my purchasers for turnkey engines are not the social media/ forum type so actual buyers that post are few and far between. If you want to talk to a buyer, just email us and we'll give you a list of folks that are willing to share their experiences with you.
Here is a link with a full post-mortem of a Raby engine with 160,000 miles and 8 solid years of hell under its belt. It includes pics and the story and the entire history of this engine can be searched at the STF from the day that I first dyno tuned it.
160,000 Mile Raby Engine

he's a super nice guy who will walk you thru his shop personally & spend time with you, which is no longer an option with Raby due to their "insurance concerns" last I heard.

Not true. I have since added two more buildings to our compound to include one area for admin and reception. I welcome any serious engine purchaser (by appointment, set up one week prior to arrival) who wants to meet us and see how we create our engines to come spend a few hours with us for a taste of what its like at Aircooled Heaven. I will I am happy to take anyone through the facilities and will show you every part of each building as long as work currently isn't underway in that room/ area. I have potential purchasers from all over the country and world come see us, the farthest to date flew from Australia and left with his name on three engines. Heck, we even teach classes here now and have our own training area, so we certainly allow visitors, but only by appointment or when we have the RAT Reunion every couple of years.. We are a technology company; not a tour company and our work can't get done if we let anyone walk into the door at random~

The /4 built our way isn't for everyone and our way of doing things isn't either. We have provided engines to a certain group of discerning purchasers for the past 15 years and have created an engine program that has met the expectations of those purchasers. The /6 and /4 can't be compared on any level.

Its all expensive and its supposed to be.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Apr 3 2012, 01:16 PM

[andys]

Hey, a thread I can actually opine on! In '73, I roomed with a guy that had a 914-6, and I had a '73 2.0L 914-4; both cars were stock. The -6 clearly outran my -4 in all respects, no question. I drove his -6 enough times to get a good feel for it. And yes, the sound was wonderful.

Andys

[unpolire]

BTW, proper spelling of the word as used is cachet: A mark or quality, as of distinction, individuality, or authenticity....I write this as the world's worst speeler.

Touché on "cachet"! My wireless keyboard sometimes sticks or misses an entry. I should have caught that as I am an editor!

[JmuRiz]

If I had my way I'd do this !!!!!

Now you're talking, that'd be the best engine I would say...but the $$ is just too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)