LS1 or smokin hot type 4 ?, Driveability ? Options

[Mike Bellis]

I have had several conversions, each one a little different.

'71 narrow body, Ford 5.0L EFI: this car had stock brakes and suspension except for 180# springs in the rear. Super fast and easy to control drift around any corner. When the tires were gripping, the car handled great.

73 wide body with several engines:

283ci V8, 250hp, cast iron everything. Super heavy with good power. Handling was very predictable. the rear over steer would plant the car in the same place every time. Awesome setup.

1.3L turbo rotary, 500hp at the peak. super light and too much HP and not enough torque for my driving likes. The over steer (above) was gone and the car was so light over the rear tires it was scary.

1.8L turbo Audi, 325hp. Lighter than the V8, heavier than the rotary. great power and torque. This seems like the best of the combos. Less over steer yet still predictable. I find some under steer in the front pushing tight turns at high speed. I think it either needs more weight over the front wheels or I need to pull the rear sway bar.

Each of these 3 combos use the same radiator and hoses to the front. The radiator and coolant add less than 50lbs to the car. With the added engine weight, the front mounted radiator helps to balance the chassis.

I have driven a stock 2.0L T4 914 as well. I can say that once you drive a high HP 914, it's impossible to go back to stock. The chassis is capable of holding much more power than it came with. My Audi conversion is my favorite by far. It runs like a new car around town and drives like a race car when I get on it.

The pleasure or pain of driving a 914 conversion will mainly come down to the chassis setup. Plan on springs, shocks and brakes to match whatever engine combo you decide.

[DBCooper]

That's a pretty good perspective. You can have any opinion you want, but unless you've actually driven all those different combinations to compare then your opinion isn't based on facts. Just because you "believe" something doesn't make it true.

To address the "but it's not a 914 anymore" thinking, sure, that's right. But is that a bad thing? That AC Ace/AC Cobra analogy, is the Cobra an Ace that's been ruined? It's heavier than the Ace, carries the weight higher, has a friggin' American motor so it's a POS hot rod, but looking at them and driving them, car for car, is the Cobra a bad car? Different, for sure, but less anything than the Ace? Is it less "sporty", less "pure", less "balanced", less "English"? Those things might all be true for some hard-core Ace owner, but not for any car enthusiast with an open-mind. For any reasonable person the Cobra is a great and iconic car, plus it's a hell of a lot faster and a lot more fun to drive. Trade your Cobra for my Ace? Seriously? That makes sense only if you've never driven a Cobra.

So my suggestion is, if you haven't driven/ridden in a V8 914 go find a way to do it, then tell me it didn't put a smile on your face. No one's saying you have to do it to your car, just saying that it makes for a very nice (if different) car on its own merits, and it's a valid way to have some fun.

OK, a LOT of fun.

[v82go]

I have owned 9 or 10 type 4 powered 914s, one conversion with a 2.5 built six (made a whopping 200 hp) at a cost of somewhere north of 10k. I presently have 2
v8 cars one 327 and one with a built LS6. Four years ago I again tried a low mileage 1974 2.0 and drove it less than a hundred miles before reselling it. After driving one with over 300 hp, I could not go back. Out of all of them the six made the most beautiful noises, but was rather down on power.

Also when comparing weights, lets not forget about the sixes oil tank and if you have a big one , its cooler.

[era vulgaris]

To address the "but it's not a 914 anymore" thinking, sure, that's right. But is that a bad thing? That AC Ace/AC Cobra analogy, is the Cobra an Ace that's been ruined? It's heavier than the Ace, carries the weight higher, has a friggin' American motor so it's a POS hot rod, but looking at them and driving them, car for car, is the Cobra a bad car? Different, for sure, but less anything than the Ace? Is it less "sporty", less "pure", less "balanced", less "English"? Those things might all be true for some hard-core Ace owner, but not for any car enthusiast with an open-mind. For any reasonable person the Cobra is a great and iconic car, plus it's a hell of a lot faster and a lot more fun to drive. Trade your Cobra for my Ace? Seriously? That makes sense only if you've never driven a Cobra.

I get what you're saying. You keep using that analogy, but I don't think it's valid in terms of how these cars are perceived. The Cobra is essentially a factory built car; water cooled 914's are not.
Had Chevy (or another large name) been importing 914 bodies and putting V8's in them in the factory I think you'd see a different attitude towards the conversion from the air-cooled purists.
And I also think, had Cobras been built by private enthusiasts, you would see a different attitude towards them as well. If it wasn't Carol Shelby who had done the engine/trans conversions, in a legitimate partnership with Ford, they would just be a novelty car and certainly not worth the $1,000,000+ that they go for now.

I'm not making an argument either way...just saying I think there's a reason why there's a different attitude towards the Cobra "conversion" than towards a 914 conversion; and that reason is the legitimacy of the cars being built by a famous racing driver who was backed by an automobile manufacturer.

Look...if you love water-cooled cars, that's great. If you love air-cooled cars, that's great. Whatever puts a smile on your face, man! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[Mark Henry]

Also when comparing weights, lets not forget about the sixes oil tank and if you have a big one , its cooler.

Yes for a /6 you have to add the weight of the tank and oil, the cooler is a bit more subjective as you don't "have" to add it for a functional car.
In the south and traffic or track you may for sure need it, but in the north, no track and not much traffic you may be able to do without one.

[Cracker]

Again, as I stated in a previous post, weight is an absolute non-factor for any car NOT being driven at 9/10ths on a race track. Now, if putting an LS into a 914 increased its weight to 4,000 lbs I would agree...but it doesn't. It means nothing. It is also important to note that my perspective nearly always comes from a "drivers perspective"...not a poser's.

By NO means am I comparing the actual cars "performance" but with ALL of this concern over "weight" I found this to be very interesting comparative data (simply from a tonnage perspective). What was someone saying about "weight" being a problem?

1) MY 914 LS3 / 2083 lbs / 485 hp / 460 tq (mid-engine, water-cooled & 6-Speed)
4.3 lbs/hp & 4.56 lbs/torque

2) '04 Carrera GT / 3043 lbs / 605 hp / 435 tq. (Porsche finally got-it-right: mid-engine, water-cooled & 6-Speed)
5.02 lbs/hp & 13.89 lbs/torque (PLUS an Extra 960 lbs compared to the teener)

3) 914 2.0 (hot) / 2116 / 150 hp / 135 tq. (mid-engine, air-cooled & 5-Speed 901)
14.01 lbs/hp & 15.67 lbs/torque

I cut my teeth in P-cars and am a National PCA Instructor. It might surprise some folks "here" but I really do enjoy Porsche's - especially teaching P-owners how to drive
their cars. However, I also have "no tolerance for in-tolerance" when it comes to purists attitudes towards better mouse-traps. I'm not telling anyone an air-cooled engine
isn't a good idea for a teener...(but) please don't automatically spew the concept that a v8 is bad (either).

Also when comparing weights, lets not forget about the sixes oil tank and if you have a big one , its cooler.

Yes for a /6 you have to add the weight of the tank and oil, the cooler is a bit more subjective as you don't "have" to add it for a functional car.
In the south and traffic or track you may for sure need it, but in the north, no track and not much traffic you may be able to do without one.

[DBCooper]

Exactly. The question is how the car performs, bottom line, nothing else.

I get what you're saying. You keep using that analogy, but I don't think it's valid in terms of how these cars are perceived.

No, perception has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm talking about what you get, the car, not about what people who don't know what they're talking about think of the car. If what other people think is a factor in your choice of cars then you should know there are a lot of 911 guys who have really low opinions of 914's, no matter what their configuration. You have a 914 so you know better than those 911 snobs, and that's exactly the same thing I'm saying about 914's that have been modernized with a lot more power. Judge the car for what is and what it can do, not for your own (possibly incorrect) image of what it "should be". That's the point in the Cobra/AC Ace analogy, the performance of the car that resulted, not what it "should" or shouldn't be. Judge the car for itself, for its own merits, not for some uninformed bystander's perceptions.

Look...if you love water-cooled cars, that's great. If you love air-cooled cars, that's great. Whatever puts a smile on your face, man! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

I'm in total agreement, which is why I can't understand people who get all butthurt about other people's watercooled cars.

Look, the original question was the better drivability between a fire cracker four cylinder and an aluminum V8. There's no one who's had a hot four who will tell you it has wonderful drivability... is there? Not for long, anyway, and the people who've had V8 cars will tell you they're perfectly drivable, won't they? So the original question is answered... isn't it? But as a special bonus the OP got a lot of answers to another question he didn't ask, about general acceptance of watercooled conversions in the 914 community. Another factor that needs to be considered in his deliberations.

[Steve]

I couldn't agree more. I had a big 4, didn't like the driveability so I switched to a six. I am also a fan of v8 914's though I have never ridden in one. From a gearing standpoint what is the red line of a stock aluminum ls1? I noticed the peak hp is around 5800 rpms.
Curious about the other politics. Does PCA allow non Porsche power plants at an Autocross?
I wish I could afford two 914's. One with a v8.

[jgara962]

[/quote]

I get what you're saying. You keep using that analogy, but I don't think it's valid in terms of how these cars are perceived. The Cobra is essentially a factory built car; water cooled 914's are not.
Had Chevy (or another large name) been importing 914 bodies and putting V8's in them in the factory I think you'd see a different attitude towards the convers
ion from the air-cooled purists.
And I also think, had Cobras been built by private enthusiasts, you would see a different attitude towards them as well. If it wasn't Carol Shelby who had done the engine/trans conversions, in a legitimate partnership with Ford, they would just be a novelty car and certainly not worth the $1,000,000+ that they go for now.

I'm not making an argument either way...just saying I think there's a reason why there's a different attitude towards the Cobra "conversion" than towards a 914 conversion; and that reason is the legitimacy of the cars being built by a famous racing driver who was backed by an automobile manufacturer.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

There is a difference between a factory effort using a little known car at the time (the Ace) and introducing a whole new concept (the Cobra) and something that's been around 40+ years being "engineered" by someone in their garage because they aren't happy with the car they own.

I'm always in favor of more power, but for vintage cars, it's within the original vision the manufacturer had for the car which in this case is a 4 or 6. I guess if I wanted something light with a high horsepower V8, I would go buy a Cobra or Sunbeam Tiger.

I wonder what percentage of similar vintage cars such as BMW 2002's or Alfa GTA's have had this done to them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[rnellums]

Curious about the other politics. Does PCA allow non Porsche power plants at an Autocross?
I wish I could afford two 914's. One with a v8.

It may vary by region, but in the Rocky mountain region I have run both DE's and AX in my porcharu, hell I've even done PCA AX in my S2000.

[Cracker]

The old-er stock (pre-2004) LS1's redline at 6k; my LS3 redlines at 6500. However, I never have to get close to the limit (shift light is set at 6100) due to the mountain of torque available.

Regarding non-Porsche drivetrains being allowed to run PCA A/X events...generally yes. Now, PCA "club racing" is an entirely different animal. Only Porsche drive-lines/components allowed.

I couldn't agree more. I had a big 4, didn't like the driveability so I switched to a six. I am also a fan of v8 914's though I have never ridden in one. From a gearing standpoint what is the red line of a stock aluminum ls1? I noticed the peak hp is around 5800 rpms.
Curious about the other politics. Does PCA allow non Porsche power plants at an Autocross?
I wish I could afford two 914's. One with a v8.

[messix]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

I was raised a Hot Rodder. I don't see any problem with modifying a 914 or any car. I don't see a problem keeping it stock either.

Modifying any car comes with more challenges than simply installing an engine. Usually the chassis, brakes and suspension will also need to be upgraded to match the engine choice. I have a roll cage, 930 turbo brakes, stiffening kit, front/rear sway bars, etc...

I've gone through several transmission and axle combos. I now run CV's that are $400 each just to keep them from breaking. I swapped in all the electronics from the donor car. I've swapped in multiple engines in the quest to find the one I like. I have spent more money than I will total up. I now throw away receipts so I don't accidentally add them up.

Everybody will have an opinion of how they want their 914 to be. All of them will be correct in their own mind. If you are not a fabricator, buy a finished car. I have thousands of hours building and rebuilding my 914 on this vision quest. I am now to the point of fine tuning the rest of the car. I have new plans for radiators and cooling using Boxster parts.

Some will like my car and some will not. Even if you don't like it, I bet I can put a smile on your face by taking you for a ride...

[Maltese Falcon]

The old-er stock (pre-2004) LS1's redline at 6k; my LS3 redlines at 6500. However, I never have to get close to the limit (shift light is set at 6100) due to the mountain of torque available.

Regarding non-Porsche drivetrains being allowed to run PCA A/X events...generally yes. Now, PCA "club racing" is an entirely different animal. Only Porsche drive-lines/components allowed.

I couldn't agree more. I had a big 4, didn't like the driveability so I switched to a six. I am also a fan of v8 914's though I have never ridden in one. From a gearing standpoint what is the red line of a stock aluminum ls1? I noticed the peak hp is around 5800 rpms.
Curious about the other politics. Does PCA allow non Porsche power plants at an Autocross?
I wish I could afford two 914's. One with a v8.

Did someone say Porsche drive-line/ components allowed? Appearing at Porsche Club events very soon...

[BuddyV]

I was raised a Hot Rodder. I don't see any problem with modifying a 914 or any car. I don't see a problem keeping it stock either.

Modifying any car comes with more challenges than simply installing an engine. Usually the chassis, brakes and suspension will also need to be upgraded to match the engine choice. I have a roll cage, 930 turbo brakes, stiffening kit, front/rear sway bars, etc...

I've gone through several transmission and axle combos. I now run CV's that are $400 each just to keep them from breaking. I swapped in all the electronics from the donor car. I've swapped in multiple engines in the quest to find the one I like. I have spent more money than I will total up. I now throw away receipts so I don't accidentally add them up.

Everybody will have an opinion of how they want their 914 to be. All of them will be correct in their own mind. If you are not a fabricator, buy a finished car. I have thousands of hours building and rebuilding my 914 on this vision quest. I am now to the point of fine tuning the rest of the car. I have new plans for radiators and cooling using Boxster parts.

Some will like my car and some will not. Even if you don't like it, I bet I can put a smile on your face by taking you for a ride...

Mike.... glad you wrote.... I am about to start a V8 build and to be honest, I have been hesitating to ACTUALLY start. The whole "keep it air cooled and lite, ect....".... but I will have fun trying this, and that keeps me motivated in work and life.

And whatever is done can be un-done if I do not LOVE it, right? My car was a forgotten seaside car when I saved it... it was never destined for originality anyway....

Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I think this is related to the original post (kind of).

Cheers!

[Cracker]

Awesome! I'd very much like to see the build details...another thread maybe if it doesn't exist. Which model are you building around this beautiful motor? Another thread perhaps (if needed).

[drive-ability]

I think they are two totally different animals.(LS1/big 4 even a 6)

[Cracker]

[quote name='jgara962' date='Jan 3 2015, 12:39 PM' post='2129596']
[/quote] I wonder what percentage of similar vintage cars such as BMW 2002's or Alfa GTA's have had this done to them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif) [/quote]

You opened this "can of worms"...my 1973 BMW 2002 w/ a 400 hp BMW S62 (M5) v8! The reason you don't see this "conversion" because of the cost. The engine, harness and Motec management (which is required) is over $25k - that's JUST the engine! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

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[messix]

the Ls engine is "the engine" to transplant into damn near everything.

bmw 3, 5, 7 series.

infiniti g cars

Nissan 240 and 300

old Mercedes

Volvos

jags

Miata

the ecu and harness "kits" make this the easiest swap, 3 wires hook up.

if it will fit the engine bay this works very well, light small and simple with parts availability every where and cheap.

[john77]

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Sorry for the hijack, but sweet lord, that thing is a beast! I can only imagine what a blast it will be to drive. I have a 72 tii with a stock m10, nowhere near as fast as my 914 but a great little car in its own right. What color are you painting it?