1970-72 914-6/914-4 Seatbelt Holster, O&H Info for the CW Types Options

[Tom_T]

For those CW's who care, I'll pass along some info which was given to me in a couple of emails from a renown 914 restoration expert & judge involved since from the old days when they were new.

I decided to share this with the O&H Forum where most of we CWs look for help, for informational purposes, & note that mine is an early 73 2.0 - so I have no vested interest in this item on my 914. However, I may someday be called upon to judge where this originality item may come into the judging criteria, but read below for where that comes into play.

So please don't shoot the messenger on this if you disagree, & try to treat your posted inputs congenially & helpfully to fellow members who are restoring &/or preparing their early 914s for show .... or sale.

As for my own judging background - I've been in PCA since 2009 & took the Zone 8 Judging School then (+ every year or two since), have been judging in PCA Zone 8 since 2010 at 3-5+ Concours events a year (so probably over 25-30 CdEs so far I'd guess, without looking at my past years' calendars) - but not at any PCA Parades to date nor AACA/CCCA/etc. CdE yet where originality is judged - & in the process I have gotten to know many more qualified judges & restorers of these fun 914 cars in that time than am I, as well as those whom I've met over the long time since 1970.

I got my 73 914-2.0 ("914S") in 1975 as 2nd owner, & drooled over them at the dealers & over other folks' 914s since they were released in Fall of 1969. I did shortly consider getting a new 914/4 as my 1st car in Fall 1970, but my budget was only $800 & I wouldn't have the means to make enough money to both make payments/insurance, & pay for my college degree - so I waited until after I graduated in June `74 & then had a good job to get mine in `75. So I've been around 914s since 1970, looked at many over 1975 to purchase new or used, & have owned mine since Dec. 1975, & had done a repaint/rust repair in Summer 1976, & a full cosmetic & mechanical rolling resto/refurb in 1980-83, & have been researching, parts sourcing & slowing working on it's 3rd & full resto since 2009.

My concours experience goes back further than my 914 ownership & later judging, as I'd also helped one of my uncles with his prep & restoration of his 1958 Corvette back in the mid-1960's for the much more stringent on originality Corvette Club, before it was his class record holding dragster at OC Raceway in the later 1960s, & after it was a true barn-found car that he bought from the widow of the OO in 1961, & then he used it as his DD for several years.

So I do know a bit about 914s & CdEs myself. Moreover & more importantly, I've gotten to know some folks whom I consider excellent experienced & knowledgeable resources on originality & judging of 914s, Porsches & many other marques & models - including several past & present PCA Parade level judges. Therefore, I can say that my "Deepthroat" source for this information is very reliable & extremely knowledgeable about 914s & on this particular matter - unless somebody comes forth with written documentation from Porsche to the contrary. But who does not wish to weigh-in personally on the matter here. The way some members talk on here, it is preferred by them to just read & not post themselves - & frankly I don't blame them!

In the time of my recent judging & working on researching, parts sourcing & working on my most recent/current 914 restoration of my car (albeit slowly) - I've relied on a few select sources on originality for my `73 2L's resto, & this info is from one of them, & this source may just be judging your 914 at a PCA Parade or other event someday, when originality on this item may come into play for your car's scoriing (words of warning).

In my judgement, you're foolish not to heed this helpful information.

However, today 45-47 years later, there are a bunch of 914 folks not finding them on their cars, & are rightfully a bit confused as to why not, & why they see no screw mounting holes on their left or driver longitudinal. Likewise, some may see them on the right side for those UK & Commonwealth Countries with RHD, & Japan, etc. where the like to drive RHD.

Additionally, some have posted elsewhere that their 914 has them on both sides - which I suspect the passenger side would be on either an owner add-on, or an added right one from a RHD conversion 914 (just my postulation). AFAIK VW-Porsche never did factory RHD 914s, but the cars were designed/engineered to accept RHD, so some conversion companies in the RHD countries did the conversions aftermarket.

If you read the quotes from the 914 restorer & judge friend of mine below, you will see that they were a standard factory item from 1970-72 MYs on the driver's side only, & my guess or supposition is that it was done due to interference with & difficulty in retrieving from around the e-brake on the left side in LHD countries' 914s. Ergo none was deemed needed on the right or passenger side with either fixed passenger/right seat or with the space around the movable right seat (72>), if the belt dropped down in there. It was just one of the little details which VW-Porsche included in the early cars to make them easier for the owners, & became unnecessary when the retractable 3-point belts came out in the 1973 MY.

Here is the information compiled from several posts on several topics on 914world to better illustrate & define the factory supplied seat belt holder FYI - & Thanx to those members whose information was included below from their other posts on 914world.

Posted by me from my source:
"Based on a reliable source from the old days, who is far smarter than am I on these 914 details:

"The seat belt tongue holster was installed on all 914 and 914-6 models from model year 1970 to model year 1972 until 12/31/71. One per car on the driver's side with four 2.9x9.5 lens head screws to secure Factory part number is 91480314110 If you do not have one on your drivers side, your car is not correct!"

If your screws are pulling out, then they're probably either the wrong length screws &/or the carpet isn't original, since some after market carpets are a slightly deeper pile/backer material. [Edit: the factory screws were small, so often could not penetrate past the thicker loop pile carpet, as noted in the other quote below, & you may not see any hole, but only a slight dimple or nothing.]

My supposition was always since back in the 70's, that they put this "Holster" in to get it away from jamming the folding e-brake, which became unnecessary when the retractable belts came in."

Posted by Glenn S.:
"I believe the part number is 914.803.141.10
I think it was so the seat belt did not interfere with the hand brake
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-1785-1494363085.jpg)"

Also posted by me from my source:
"One more clarification for those reading here who really care about originality for their car - I would put more weight on those posting here holsters or not from the ORIGINAL OWNERS of the subject 914s - vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners "looking for holes".

"Those screws were so tiny that many did not pierce the rockers but rather just went into the thick loop carpet on the cars. Only with the perlon could one ever see any penetration.""

Link to Mike Fitton's post on his NOS set of Euro 73 MY ones:
.... (My guess is that apparently they kept the non-retractable belts longer there, or else these are 73 manufactured replacements for the early 70-72 type belts with the holster.)
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=NOS+seat+belts

The NOS Holster is in the bag with teeny-tiny screws in this pic from his post linked above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003759.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003721.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003738.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003748.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1482003807.jpg)
^ More photos added above as later edit for clarity on the full contents of the ealry 70-72 era seatbelt kit's contents. IMHO, the fact that the single seat belt holster & its 4 small mounting screws are packaged in the bag with the rest of the seatbelt hardware, is yet another indicator that it was a standard issue item which was - or should have been - included on all 70-72 914s within the date range noted by my 914 expert.
.

And from Tradisrad's 2009 topic on installing one on his 914:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=101654

Here are his pix of it loose, installed & in-use that he posted there:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367172.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367244.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-6815-1259367311.jpg)

And pix of the 4 screw holes & as installed on the driver side longitudinal - when they occurred -
of the holes from Paul's 70 /4 from that same topic (he's the OO):
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1260075392_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1260157115_thumb.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-5727-1314577364_thumb.jpg)

And a sideview pic of Michael N's from the linked topic above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-2164-1272478646.jpg)

Pic of another one installed by SirAndy for same topic above:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1280726380_thumb.jpg)
.

As a further indicator that it was intended for the 70-72 914s as a factory item - not a dealer accessory as some have contended, the pic clipped from a parts manual posted in post #14 below by SirAndy - it indicates the 914-6, /4 & 1.7 sub-models of the 70-72 MY era, & is similar but easier to read than the small pic of it where it's called a "holder" from Glenn S's. pic above. ----v

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-179-1494552787.png)
.

And if you want a headache of "screw arguments" - then you can also read on here, since there are several OOs & others posting about this era 914 with the holsters, as an FYI.

See here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...309704&st=0

Another pic from the above topic of Paul's 70 914/4 with the seat belt holster holes location called out:
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-13069-1494429903.gif)

.

Thanx again to all from whom I've borrowed the photos & info herein.

I've culled the key info. from a Garage Forum post where they've decided to let it devolve into an argumentative search for elusive screw holes, despite several posts saying that the screws were too short to reach the steel with the thicker pile carpet.

If you're a true CW & in the interest of erring on the conservative side - I suggest that you forget looking for or worrying about screw holes now 45-47 years later, & Primarily pay attention to the OO reports of them on their own & other known 70-72 914s.

As for the judging for originality on this item - neither most local single, grouped nor multi-marque car shows, nor at the PCA's Zones' & Regions' Concours - all generally do not judge originality. ERgo, it should not matter whether or not you have a holster .... in most cases. However, if they're tie-breaking & either don't have another tie break methodology, or if their method is to look for non-original items/missing original items to break the tie - then you may be at a disadvantage without this seat belt holster on a 70-72 model - &/or with any other non-original items &/or missing items.

It will never show up on a COA, since it wasn't an option, but a standard item/feature.

Please do not devolve this topic into another "screw hole" argument! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

But if you're an original owner, or a later owner who can confirm original fitment of the driver side seatbelt holster in their 914s as originally delivered, &/or with any other info helpful on this topic for owners/restorers/competitors of these cars - then please do chime in! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Also, if you have factory, PCNA, PAG or other documented information which says otherwise on this being a standard feature on all 70-72 MY cars, &/or with other date limits, &/or other information for the non-USA markets around the world, then please do add that info. here in a post below as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Note that this sort of documentation from Porsche, PCNA, PAG, etc. by country of origin of your car, is the only type of documentation which will suffice to refute any challenge or judging deduction in those PCA Parade & other CdE's where they do judge on originality, as is a COA when it comes to optional items, colors, etc.

So it is important to force PCNA to correct any errors in their preparation of your COA if you have information to the contrary, such as a Mulroney Window Sticker (which is usually also accepted as documentation for items listed thereon).

Good Luck to you restoring/preserving/showing a 70-72 914 with this item. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[wndsnd]

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

[mepstein]

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.

[Tom_T]

And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.

And you Mark, Andy, & everyone else who are slamming people for information which we have relayed on here in good faith - either from a reliable source &/or personally, really need to stop that BS, then their is no need to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) anybody!

Andy has been far from polite & respectful to a bunch of us who have been around 914s far longer than he or you have, & is willing to disparage a person he doesn't even know! Therefore, he got called on it by me, & eventually by others.

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

This only serves to confuse those out there trying to prepare for Spokane next month, & is a big disservice to the members on here.

Instead, Andy is so dead set on trying to make it "my information" & trying to discredit me personally, & deny any other possibilities that he himself might be wrong! That is just small minded.

So NO - I don't think that any of us will leave, just cuz you want us to not stand up for ourselves, & just accept his highness as the sole & final expert, free to dole out insults to others at will! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Bub-bye! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)
T
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[SirAndy]

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tom_T]

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The point is Andy, that you SHOULD mention & concede the point in regards to having them for Concours judging, since it is an accepted standard per the officials - instead of confusing the issue for those new to concours prep reading here.

My first post says that this topic is placed here in O&H for Concours purposes - as well as to avoid this very type of personal attacks barrage from you & your buddies at the general Garage discussion on this item, as well as at many others herein Andy. I think you know that, & that I asked many times for you not to confuse the issue for those prepping for Concours, & instead you followed/trolled me over to O&H here, in order to continue your arguments & put-downs from the other thread in the Garage on this item, just to press your perceived superiority over me of all things 914.

There is a big difference between stating that you disagree with a particular point or position which the concours judging officials & bodies have taken & leaving it at that - DULY NOTED - & doing a barrage of curt & nasty posts insisting that I - not the the outside Concours expert's info - is wrong, cannot be, & that it should just be ignored by everyone on here because YOU think it was a dealer option/accessory.

And you're just splitting hairs & being disingenuous to state that you never mentioned Concours, while multiple posting on here your argumentative circumstantial "facts," in a misguided attack to try to discredit me personally - rather than at least being honest enough to keep it as: "you disagree with the other outside expert's opinion." Again, duly noted, & noted, & noted - you disagree, everyone gets that you disagree - but that alone doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, I take my expert/judge's opinion on this being a standard factory part over yours, McMark's or any other naysayers on here as correct - as should any serious concours or originality restorer. This is more than a "someone says" opinion, as you have alleged in one of your attacks above on me, but from an expert who trumps you in 914 expertise!

You continue to insist that only your opinions & limited options or "possibilities" are the only ones which could possibly be true & considered, despite & avoiding all other factual documentation & evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, I did explain the proper & accepted ways that this & any & all originality items can be documented & challenged at Concours &/or to change the judging originality standards/criteria with the sponsoring organizations - but that procedure does not include screw hole evidence, polls/lists of 914s with/without, etc. now some almost 50 years later after their manufacture.

I even invited folks who find anything in accepted official Porsche documentation to the contrary to post it here - including you.

As for whether they were in fact a factory part & not a dealer add-on ....

The supporting documented facts are:

1.) Actual official Porsche Documentation/manuals list it as a factory part:

1a.) The part is listed in the PET section #8 & several other Porsche parts manuals as a factory part - NOT a dealer accessory in section #0, &

1b.) Therein that only one (1) is included (not 2, with 1 on both sides - the 2nd would be an add-on item), &

1c.) Therein that they are for 914-6/4 up to `71 or 12/71 (-71 or up to 12/71) - which includes 1st half of the 72 MY.

1d.) You yourself Andy, Glen & others have posted screenshots of these parts manuals clearing showing the above 1a-1c facts in support of they being a factory part, & countervening your own position that they were dealer options.

2.) The Holster/Holder/Retainer Bar part is NOT listed in the PET within the "Main Group 0 Accessories" section - where the Dealer sold add-on items are listed.

3.) The NOS seatbelt kit clearly included the holster within the same package as the seatbelt securing bolts - not as a separate item outside of the seatbelt parts (at Mike Fitton's ad for an NOS set of early non-retractable seatbelts).

The additional circumstantial support for this are:

4.) Glen's survey in the Garage Forum at his link provided in his post #28 above, so far shows far more 914-6/4s of the era with the part, (or screw holes) - than those lacking it - making the standard factory inclusion of the part(s) much more likely, with those missing them being factory errors or omissions.

5.) Members have posted that their cars from that era had them only screwed into the carpet, supporting that the later screwed holes during assembly may have been missed, forgotten or omitted at the factory on certain cars - similar to Glen's findings at #4 above. Stuff got missed, sloppily or misapplied or mis-installed, etc. at Karmann, Stuttgart & all other auto factories all of the time!

> A side note on evidence that this type of factory omission did indeed happen - i.e.: that this type of factory omission of some cars not having some needed mounting holes & not being done at the factory on all cars - is that my 73 & several other original owner 73's with original rear panels had no punched holes in them for the engine designation badge (i.e.: they only had the 2 early style prepunched holes for the 914 badge). Of this I am 1000% sure. So certainly the 4 drilled holes for this seatbelt holster also could have been missed too on some cars & to say that errors/omissions never occurred at the factory is just unsupportable.

6.) At almost 50 years old now - & with rust prone & hard driven sports cars, many of which could have had accidents, with one or more restorations in that almost half a century - it's hard to say that any car didn't have some sheet metal replacements, or the holes filling in (if there), etc. over that time - making it nearly impossible for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. owner to know it's original state for certain.

> For example - I recall from pix which you posted quite a while back on your original 914-6 body/shell, that it had both extensive accident & rust damage when you got it. So who is to say that the long pic which McMark posted is actually original sheet metal? Section "Main Group 8 Body" of the official Porsche Factory Repair Manual shows pix of how various sections can be cut & replaced with minimal disruption & minimal evidence after-the-fact, because they stay at or close to the factory seams/joints for the most part.

While your 914-6 may indeed still be original body steel & lack the holes, that alone is not conclusive evidence that they should have been done at the factory, & that it did or should have had the seatbelt holder on it when the original owner bought it new. And is is certainly not conclusive evidence that they are dealer added options. That just is NOT a fact, as you erroneously allege.

7.) This item has been cited as an original factory part on all 914-6/4 cars during the 1970-72 MY up to 12/31/71, as consistent with the Porsche documentation noted above in #1 - as per my one buddy judge/resto/expert on 914s - & since then several more have old timer experts spoken up on here & to me privately - ALL of whom are far more reliable sources on originality & experienced with 914s since their introduction - than are you/McMark/Epstein/etc. as relative newcomers.

So I'm sorry, but your alleged "facts" are not facts, nor does your opinion overrule those true experts & the other documented proof above.

Missing screw holes almost 50 years later on a few 914s from that era just area not supportable nor conclusive "facts" - since they could have been simple factory assembly line errors or omissions.

So far your only alleged "facts" that this item is a dealer add-on option or accessory are:

A.) Your 914-6 & 914/4 has no holder nor screw holes in their longitudinals, &

B.) A small number of other subject 70-72 914-6/4s also don't have the holders, or screw holes in their longitudinals either, according to some other owners on here.

C.) You claimed that since it is called "Retaining Bar" in a questionable German-to-English translation within the PET, that it somehow "proves" it wasn't a factory part - but by what logic is that?

> Whereas, it's just possible that it started in concept as a "bar" but ended up instead being a plastic holder/holster, or that the translation is what they used even if it always was the plastic pocket holder/holster. Either way or if neither - the part's name has absolutely no bearing on whether it's a factory part or a dealer add-on. I also pointed out earlier in here that they also call the rubber gasket which sits under the side mirrors on the door as a: "Desk Pad" - so how the heck is a desk pad a proper English language usage or translation for a body gasket or seal!?

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

E.) You, Glen & others have posted screen shots of Porsche Parts Manuals/Listings which in fact support that they ARE indeed factory parts, & NOT dealer add-ons - minus Two!

I think that any objective, logical & reasonable person would judge that the alleged "facts" of yours above are pretty thin & only circumstantial - while the documented facts & other supporting circumstantial evidence, & outside expert opinions which I summarized above so far weigh far more heavily that they are in fact factory parts & NOT dealer add-ons.

If you really want to get at the facts to support an argument to the contrary, then use your German contacts & family to get some actual official Porsche documentation, letters, diagrams, older parts manuals, etc. to support your counter-claim that they were a dealer installed option. You said that I needed documents, which I've provided, but you yourself have provided zero documentation to the contrary, but rather have provided documentation that the were indeed factory installed parts (or should have been). So go get a dealer TSB or Instruction sheet which shows them directed to install these seatbelt holders at the dealership prior to delivery, & then you have supportable true facts!

Those are acceptable "facts" to both the true 914 experts, Concours organizations, etc. needed to change the Concours judging originality criteria. You have to provide acceptable documentation to the contrary, which categorically offsets the PET/Manuals & Parts packages, etc. noted above.

Otherwise, it's like trying to talk yourself out of a radar speeding ticket by saying to the judge in court, that both you & your buddy in the passenger seat were watching the speedometer & "swear" that you never sped - instead of providing documentation that the officer never properly tuned his radar gun - which AFAIK is the ONLY acceptable proof to get one out of a radar speeding ticket in CA & probably in most other states too. That won't fly there, nor will your spurious claims fly with the originality experts & organizations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am only taking my time here to provide this info from the start - & to continue to answer your ongoing inane & spurious contentions to have some "facts" - so that others with a 70-72 (up to 12/31/71) 914-6 or /4 will not be mislead by your posts, while they are trying to properly restore &/or prepare their cars for Concours or whatever else.

However - IF & when you find actual documentation on this subject for or against it being a factory part expected to be on the 70-72 up to 12/31/71 914-6/4s - then please do post it here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

So please do us all a favor & stop OT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) - & just post when you have some actual documentation supporting your contention that these were dealer add-ons.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tom_T]

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

While you're correct Andy that there is either a guide bar or plate sort of piece on the retractable belt - it is in fact NOT a separate part & ALWAYS already assembled with the entire belt assembly - & NEVER separately - NOR does it have a separate part number called out for it in PET section 812's diagram nor parts list, where it sits between the two (2) parts labeled #7 in the 812 diagram for the parts list.

In 74> MYs it was changed from the earlier guide plate, to a tubular bar type piece with a completely different plastic cover for it (cover called out as #2 & shown in the 812 diagram). So it wasn't originally a bar either.

It also sits way at the top of the back wall with the retractor mechanism - & NOT down below at the longitudenal - as does the holder part being discussed here.

It is neither called out, nor given a separate part number, nor even referred to a "retainer bar" as you claimed in that 2009 post - which I did read.

You see, I DO know about all of this, because it IS an item which I have researched for my own 73 914-2.0's resto, & which early seatbelt assembly is exceedingly hard to find in NOS parts with the flat guide plate type using the smaller cover, as shown in the 812 diagram - & as per my OE ones on my car.

So not only are you still "Minus One & Two" for this early seatbelt holder part - but add "Minus 3" for the 73> part as well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult: "So much for the all knowing concours judge ..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

.... or just continue to try to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fighting19.gif) me!!??

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) I think it's just better if we "play nice" on here - don't you?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult

This may surprise you but i'm completely comfortable with my sexuality ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tom_T]

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult

This may surprise you but i'm completely comfortable with my sexuality ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

But obviously not a man of good manners, morals nor ethics! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

At least whenever I've been wrong on something on here, then I admit it & go back & correct the info. I also correct any misunderstandings or misinterpretations of what I have said, so that nobody with continue to get the misinformation version.

You can't even apologize for an attempted insult when you info was wrong! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

It just shows your true colors.

You & your buddies wrote this 914world Rule in the FAQS Forum, & I believe it's good to follow it:

<snipped>
We don't like rules, but hey, you gotta have a few and we want 914World to be a friendly place where people come to chat about cars and life, so here they are.

* Don't call anyone names. Treat other members like your mother taught you - If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
<end snip>

FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

I have no problem at all with doing that!

PS - In the spirit of keeping to the "treat others as you wish to be treated" adage above - I here & now apologize to you if anything I said was an insult. I don't think I did, as I did try to just keep to responding to correcting the misinformation - but then too, I was pretty irritated with the way you've treated me on here.
.... anyway - Sorry!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

How about you come up with actual Porsche documentation saying that this item was installed at the factory?

The large number of cars without mounting holes suggest otherwise ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[Tom_T]

FYI - if you or anyone else comes up with any actual Porsche documentation saying that this item is a dealer add-on or accessory, then I will agree that it adds new information, & will recco that folks take a copy with them &/or that they petition for a change to the judging criteria on the 70-72 914s.

How about you come up with actual Porsche documentation saying that this item was installed at the factory?

The large number of cars without mounting holes suggest otherwise ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)